Lord's Evening Meal

[Jensen]

Hi Peg,

It seems this thread is done....until now, I have a question.

Some in the OT such as Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David and others who seemed to have a closer relationship with God than most since.....are they of the earthly class or of the 144,000 heavenly class? I ask because they appeared to be closer to God than those of today, why wouldn't they be considered for the heavenly class?

Jensen

 

[Pegg]

Hi Peg,

It seems this thread is done....until now, I have a question.

Some in the OT such as Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David and others who seemed to have a closer relationship with God than most since.....are they of the earthly class or of the 144,000 heavenly class? I ask because they appeared to be closer to God than those of today, why wouldn't they be considered for the heavenly class?

Jensen

Hi Jensen,

The answer to the question concerns the 'timing' of things.

According to the mosaic law, every Israelite male had to be circumsized in order to be a member of Gods people (that included non israelites who wanted to become a member) Noah did not have this requirment because he lived long before the mosaic law was instituted...Yet Noah was still a servant of God like Abraham.

in the same way, those faithful men of old lived long before Jesus instituted the covenant for the heavenly kingdom. Therefore they do not enter a covenant which was before their time.....just as Noah did not enter the mosaic covenant.

So these ones will be restored to life in the earthly paradise....they will be resurrected as part of the earthly resurrection.

 

[Marco19]

Hello there!

From Pegg's respond, am i correct that ONLY JW are part of the heavenly gov.?

 

[Pegg]

Hello there!

From Pegg's respond, am i correct that ONLY JW are part of the heavenly gov.?

technically, only those whom God has chosen are incorporated into the heavenly government. Members of the heavenly government have been accumulating ever since the 1st century when Jesus established the kingdom covenant...so there have been many christians over the past 2,000 years who have surely been added as members of that heavenly kingdom.

 

[Marco19]

hmmm, then it's correct if i assume that all the prophets are excluded since they belong to the pre-Christ era?

may be only the 12 Apostles and some others who belong to the early period, because you believe that the later Christianity belongs to Satan.

My Conclusion would be that the majority of 144000 are definitely JW, am I mistaken?

Thanks again

 

[Pegg]

hmmm, then it's correct if i assume that all the prophets are excluded since they belong to the pre-Christ era?

may be only the 12 Apostles and some others who belong to the early period, because you believe that the later Christianity belongs to Satan.

My Conclusion would be that the majority of 144000 are definitely JW, am I mistaken?

Thanks again

well there have always been christians throughout history who have been 'true' followers of Christ. No one really knows how many of them are of the 144,000, but we can be sure that they were because they are chosen based on their faithful and loyal course.

We have only been known as 'Jehovahs Witnesses' for a relatively short time, before that we were simply called 'bible students'.... so really, the majority of the 144000 were likely chosen before we took the name JW's.

 

[Marco19]

well there have always been christians throughout history who have been 'true' followers of Christ. No one really knows how many of them are of the 144,000, but we can be sure that they were because they are chosen based on their faithful and loyal course.

We have only been known as 'Jehovahs Witnesses' for a relatively short time, before that we were simply called 'bible students'.... so really, the majority of the 144000 were likely chosen before we took the name JW's.

I'm sorry Pegg to ask again the same question,
but for me it's unclear or seems i miss some points,
so let's leave the early Christianity, let say starting from the 3rd century till the time before JW, can you mention any Christian denomination where you may have chosen people?

If i ask you direct question, hope you will answer:
Do you believe any Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant will be chosen?

My other question is:
After establishment of JW, do you believe that any other Christian fellow who doesn't belong to JW may have the chance?

Thank you again

 

[Pegg]

I'm sorry Pegg to ask again the same question,
but for me it's unclear or seems i miss some points,
so let's leave the early Christianity, let say starting from the 3rd century till the time before JW, can you mention any Christian denomination where you may have chosen people?

If i ask you direct question, hope you will answer:
Do you believe any Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant will be chosen?

My other question is:
After establishment of JW, do you believe that any other Christian fellow who doesn't belong to JW may have the chance?

Thank you again

In the 3rd century and for a long time thereafter there was only the 'catholic' church....i believe its likely that 'individual' christians from among it could have been of the anointed, yes.

But if a christian of any denomination does not worship God in 'spirit and truth' as Jesus advised, then they would not qualify for the heavenly kingdom.

Before the 'Jehovahs Witnesses' were established, they were christians from different denominations who came together to study the bible...their study made them realise that many church doctrines were false and they rejected those teachings. They began to preach the true doctrines of the bible and this was the 'restoration' of true christianity. Even though they were yet to be known as 'Jehovahs Witnesses' back then, many of them were included among the anointed because they were christians who chose to worship God (Jehovah) in truth. They rejected the trinity teaching, hellfire, purgatory and many others....they began teaching only the doctrines of the bible.

So the answer to your question is that christians have been selected from various denominations based on their willingness to worship God in truth and with faithfulness to Jesus teachings. After we became known as 'Jehovahs Witnesses', the restoration of true christianity was complete and from that time it was really up to other christians to reject false teachings and join themselves to the restored christian church. But obviously most christians have not done that...they have not all rejected false teachings or false religious practices. So unless they are willing to do so, they cannot become members of the heavenly kingdom.

 

[Marco19]

Hello again,

out of curiosity, i wonder if the thief, who was crucified & promised to be with him, was one of the anointed? in a way, he was the first anointed?

Thanks again

 

[Pegg]

Hello again,

out of curiosity, i wonder if the thief, who was crucified & promised to be with him, was one of the anointed? in a way, he was the first anointed?

Thanks again

Hi marco,

No the thief was not anointed. He was not a disciple of Jesus (that is a definite prerequisite) and he also died before the holy spirit was poured out.

Christians did not begin to be anointed until Pentecost (about 50 days after Jesus died) That was when the holy spirit first arrived on Jesus disciples. To be anointed means to receive the holy spirit as Jesus said:
Acts 1:8 but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.”

John 14:26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU.


But Jesus words to that man show that he will be resurrected on earth during the Millenial Reign of Christ. Jesus told him "truly i tell you today, you will be with me in paradise"
The term 'paradise' refers to the earthly paradise. So he will be among those who will be brought back to life on earth as Jesus had already said that the 'unrighteous' will also be raised from the graves:
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment

 

[Marco19]

Hi marco,

No the thief was not anointed. He was not a disciple of Jesus (that is a definite prerequisite) and he also died before the holy spirit was poured out.

Christians did not begin to be anointed until Pentecost (about 50 days after Jesus died) That was when the holy spirit first arrived on Jesus disciples. To be anointed means to receive the holy spirit as Jesus said:
Acts 1:8 but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.”

John 14:26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU.


But Jesus words to that man show that he will be resurrected on earth during the Millenial Reign of Christ. Jesus told him "truly i tell you today, you will be with me in paradise"
The term 'paradise' refers to the earthly paradise. So he will be among those who will be brought back to life on earth as Jesus had already said that the 'unrighteous' will also be raised from the graves:
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment

Hello Pegg,
Thanks for responding, but i wonder how do you define the phrases today and "with me"

Why He said today? what today means?
Since Jesus will live in the heaven with the heavenly government and not in paradise, then why He said to the thief you'll be with me?

Thanks again

 

[Pegg]

Hello Pegg,
Thanks for responding, but i wonder how do you define the phrases today and "with me"

Why He said today? what today means?
Since Jesus will live in the heaven with the heavenly government and not in paradise, then why He said to the thief you'll be with me?

Thanks again

considering that Jesus said he would be dead and in the grave for 3 days, he could not have meant that on that very same day the man would be with Jesus in paradise.

So we do not take his words ' truly i tell you today you will be with me in paradise' as meaning that on that day the man would enter heaven with Jesus.... Jesus did not enter heaven on that day so his words cannot mean that.

The greek language manuscripts do not contain commas...those commas are used in english to give meaning.... but the Greek text doesnt have them. So depending on what the english translator believes Jesus words to mean, he will either put the comma before 'today' or after it.

EG.
"Truly i tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
OR
"Truly i tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."

these two sentences look similar, but the comma gives them a different meaning. The first one means that the man would be with Jesus on that very day in paradise. But the 2nd means that on this very day i'm telling you that you will be with me in paradise.

Depending on where you put the comma (,) the meaning changes. We choose to put the comma after the 'today' for a few reasons.

1. Jesus is going to heaven, not paradise.
2. The greek word 'paradiso' (paradise) is an earthly garden...it is not heaven.
3. Jesus said he would be in the grave for 3 days, therefore he wasnt going anywhere on that day.
4. The hebrew scriptures hightlight that the earthly paradise is the hope of mankind...it will become like the Garden of Eden which was Gods purpose for it.
5. Christ will rule over the earthly paradise from 'heavenly Jerusalem' or from 'Zion' which is Gods resting place in heaven.


Jesus could tell the man that he would be with him in paradise because Jesus will have oversight of the resurrection and the earthly society of people who will be living in the paradise. He will be their king....but he will rule from heaven as he does now.
For example, the Queen of England has oversight of the commonwealth countries...she lives in England, but is still said to be the ruler of the commonwealth. Similarly with Jesus, he will rule over the earthly paradise from heaven.