Losing Our Religion

[9-10ths_Penguin]

He answers prayers by having Christians respond to the needs of others.

So much for free will, apparently.

Read what Jesus says will be ask of us during the Final Judgement.

You wouldn’t have a particular passage in mind, would you?

Red herring analysis

How is that a red herring?

Have you ever seen God put out a fire of a building being burned down without firefighters?

Since I’m an atheist, it would be strange if I said “yes.”

The only Christians I hear say such are those who do not want any responsibility of helping others and who ignore the teachings of Christ.

It’s a common enough sentiment. Maybe Christ’s teachings aren’t as clear as you think they are.

Edit: speaking of the teachings of Christ, how do you align your position with Christ’s teachings in Matthew 8?

Why don't you stop eating and start praying the God will keep you from being hungry and see what happens.

Oh, I’d starve, no question. Reality aligns much more closely with the idea that no gods exist than with the idea that the Christian god exists, IMO.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Uhhhhh . . . no!

The Christians who live by that ideal of faith often will give their last potato to a neighbor without worry over what either will eat tomorrow.

If a person gives their neighbour their last potato, this is a sign that the person worries very much about what their neighbour will eat.

Someone who gives their neighbour their last scrap of food is someone who has no faith that God will see to the needs of their neighbour.

 

[Spice]

If a person gives their neighbour their last potato, this is a sign that the person worries very much about what their neighbour will eat.

Which is quite a "Christian", as well as "humane", thing to do.

Someone who gives their neighbour their last scrap of food is someone who has no faith that God will see to the needs of their neighbour.

You must misunderstand the idea of "Let go and let God". It's not an excuse, which is what I took issue with. It's faith and understanding that we rely upon each other, that we are one, and worrying, complaining, and all manner of selfishness behavior is an unproductive waste of energy. God has given us all we need to turn the creation placed in our care, into the "heaven" so many longingly wait for. Along with "Let go and let God" goes "If not me, who; if not now, when?"

 

[Skipper]

So much for free will, apparently.


You wouldn’t have a particular passage in mind, would you?


How is that a red herring?


Since I’m an atheist, it would be strange if I said “yes.”


It’s a common enough sentiment. Maybe Christ’s teachings aren’t as clear as you think they are.

Edit: speaking of the teachings of Christ, how do you align your position with Christ’s teachings in Matthew 8?


Oh, I’d starve, no question. Reality aligns much more closely with the idea that no gods exist than with the idea that the Christian god exists, IMO.

You say you are an atheist, so why are you concerned one way or the other about God? You seem to have a fundamentalists attitude concerning your beliefs.

Free will is alive and well. God wants us to help others, but he leaves that decision of helping or not helping to us; our free will

I am surprised you do not know about the final judgement as recorded in Matthew. How can you discuss intelligently if you do not know the basics?

The final judgment:

Matthew 25:31-46

Look it up, read it and see how the judgement will be rendered.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Which is quite a "Christian", as well as "humane", thing to do.

It's only humane if he needs the food. He only needs the food if God won't provide it himself.

As an atheist, I agree with your approach: go ahead and feed him. I'd do the same. But part of why I'd do this is because I don't rely on a loving, capable god that sees our needs.

You must misunderstand the idea of "Let go and let God". It's not an excuse, which is what I took issue with. It's faith and understanding that we rely upon each other, that we are one, and worrying, complaining, and all manner of selfishness behavior is an unproductive waste of energy.

I took it as a summary of Jesus's message in Matthew 6:31-32.

God has given us all we need to turn the creation placed in our care, into the "heaven" so many longingly wait for. Along with "Let go and let God" goes "If not me, who; if not now, when?"

The answer to your question: God. If not you, then God.

... if you have enough faith to trust in God, of course. "If not me, who?" Is motivation for atheists and other people who don't have faith in the Christian God.

This motivation works fine for me and it works fine for "Sunday Christians" who don't actually rely on God, but it doesn't work for any Christian who sincerely believes that God is loving, capable, and watching over us.

Read Matthew 6. The Christian reason for charity shouldn't be concern for people's well-being. Jesus explains this in Matthew 6:25-34 - you don't need to worry, because God already knows the problem and will provide everything that everyone needs. Charity rooted in concern for others is rooted in turning your back on God.

Instead, the Christian motivation for charity is described in Matthew 6:3-4: being rewarded by God.

 

[Spice]

As an atheist, I agree with your approach: go ahead and feed him. I'd do the same. But part of why I'd do this is because I don't rely on a loving, capable god that sees our needs.

And part of the reason I'd do this is because I'm humble enough to serve, rather than expect to be served . . . even by God.

I took it as a summary of Jesus's message in Matthew 6:31-32.

You should read just a bit more. Matthew 6:33 says "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well." All these things are right there in front of us, a part of the original creation that still flourishes (even with mankind's carbon footprint traced across it), however many cannot see the abundance, the beauty, the wonder of it all due to their attitude of me-me-me.

The answer to your question: God. If not you, then God.

... if you have enough faith to trust in God, of course. "If not me, who?" Is motivation for atheists and other people who don't have faith in the Christian God.

This motivation works fine for me and it works fine for "Sunday Christians" who don't actually rely on God, but it doesn't work for any Christian who sincerely believes that God is loving, capable, and watching over us.

And I disagree. Although I'm one who believes the only prayers that should have the words please give, are the ones looking for strength, wisdom, understanding, patience, etc. IOW the things that come from within each of us. I believe we already have everything and although it can be rearranged, it can not be destroyed, so it's on us to "find our Easter eggs".

Read Matthew 6. The Christian reason for charity shouldn't be concern for people's well-being. Jesus explains this in Matthew 6:25-34 - you don't need to worry, because God already knows the problem and will provide everything that everyone needs. Charity rooted in concern for others is rooted in turning your back on God.

Instead, the Christian motivation for charity is described in Matthew 6:3-4: being rewarded by God.

The "rewards" spoken of in Matthew 6:3-4 are rewards of contentment, happiness, peace, aka "heaven" or rather "the kingdom" which Jesus preached was within our midst. We rise ourselves when we lift others up.

 

[JesusMyFriend]

Serving God and serving mankind is the same thing.

Depends on how people view the image of God and what God is for them. For example, we just can't devote ourselves to the "personal God" we believe in and then forget all about others because it's in others especially, that by helping other people and serving humanity we get closer to God. So what you say is true, but sometimes it isn't. Honestly it's hard to explain.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

He's essentially asking them to think for themselves, to stop looking for divine signs outside themselves, "in the sky", and to look within themselves and decide for themselves.

And many thought he was full of it, which wasn't the answer he wanted.

 

[Vouthon]

And many thought he was full of it, which wasn't the answer he wanted.

And unlike his disciples, Jesus refused to retaliate against the people who thought he was "full of it" and persecuted him, ultimately to death because they didn't like what he said and how his egalitarian message threatened their worldview.

For instance, Jesus' message was rejected by the inhabitants of a village in Samaria because he was a Jew on pilgrimage towards Jerusalem and Samaritans had an intense ethno-religious hatred for Judeans, which the Jews returned in kind to the Samaritans. His disciples demanded that he exterminate the people of the village by issuing a curse and invoking fire from heaven (they thought this was possible, according to their superstitious, first century view of the world).

Jesus not only refused to do this but he sternly disciplined his disciples for harbouring such hatred in their hearts against people who opposed them.

Luke 9:52-56:

And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. 53 But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this,they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”

55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” And they went to another village.
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That's because Jesus had earlier taught that you should:

Luke 6:28-29

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
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There's an old saying: if you have enemies, then good - it probably means you've stood up for something in your life.

Jesus stood up for what he believed in and paid the ultimate price. So, of course, he had enemies and people who thought he was "full of it".

 

[blü 2]

Luke 12:57

You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and sky. Why don’t you know how to interpret the present time? And why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right?http://biblehub.com/greek/1342.htm​

But that's hardly a rule of Christianity. Christian churches have all felt free to require their followers (in many cases in history, to insist, and to punish disobedience with death) to obey particular versions of morality, and particular interpretations of bible passages, and not to question either the existence of their god, or the authority of their god or of the church.

Our modern forms of government in the West are parliamentary democracies amounting to a form of "mixed government", not pure democracies in the classical Greek sense - where there were no elected officials or ministers but rather assemblies in which every man voted directly on what was going to happen in the country, without elected representatives or an executive or any separation of powers, making it very open to abuse and the dictatorship of the majority.

But that was still the birth of democracy. And afterwards, democracies were very rare and kingdoms and autocratic authority were very usual, and constantly declared that kings were God's chosen and must be obeyed.

Even when democracy emerged, for example in 17th century England, the voters were all male land-owners, and so it remained until slowly during the late 19th and 20th centuries universal suffrage emerged in particular countries.

The bible, as you know, is particularly strong in support of slave owning and particularly weak in support of the rights of women (though to be fair, it has no argument with abortion).

 

[SinSaber]

All laws should follow the Golden Rule. If it breaks the Golden Rule, it's not a good law.

Then you’re not a christian