Lost Years of Jesus

[nash8]

Read their biographies on Google Books. And, wikipedia isn't the best source.

I'm good on the biographies, and wikipedia isn't the best source... it's the only source.

Regardless? The only reason I say that no Indian purported it was because no Indian created the the concept of Jesus in India. Who created the fabrication? It was a non-Indian. That was my point from the beginning.

And I would probably agree with you.

Better than your anti-French sentiment.

I was just kidding, I love French people. Their president's wife is a porn star. I couldn't even begin to think of the outrage in pretensious America if that were to happen. The universe might just come to a screeching halt.

 

[roger1440]

What's your opinion on what happen?

We actually know nothing about Jesus’s childhood. The story about Jesus being lost after the Feast of the Passover when he was twelve years old is more than likely fabricated. His parents didn’t realize he was missing until a day later while they were returning home from the Passover. This doesn’t say much about the parenting skills of Jesus’s parents. Keep in mind, these country roads are a magnet for thieves and murderers waiting for unsuspecting travelers. Jesus was missing for a total of four days.

After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. (Luke 2:46-47)
​

Most of what we know about first century Palestine comes down to us from the Jewish historian Flavis Josephus (born 37 – died 100). His most famous works were “The Jewish War” (c. 75) and “Antiquities of the Jews” (c. 94). In his autobiography entitled “The Life Of Flavius Josephus” he writes:

…I made mighty proficiency in the improvements of my learning, and appeared to have both a great memory and understanding. Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the high priests and principal men of the city came then frequently to me together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of the law. The Life Of Flavius Josephus, Paragraph 2 http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/autobiog.htm
​

Imagine that, Josephus is a lot like Jesus when he was a child. Coincidence? I don’t think so.

 

[outhouse]

We actually know nothing about Jesus’s childhood. The story about Jesus being lost after the Feast of the Passover when he was twelve years old is more than likely fabricated. His parents didn’t realize he was missing until a day later while they were returning home from the Passover. This doesn’t say much about the parenting skills of Jesus’s parents. Keep in mind, these country roads are a magnet for thieves and murders waiting for unsuspecting travelers. Jesus was missing for a total of four days.

After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. (Luke 2:46-47)
​

Most of what we know about first century Palestine comes down to us from the Jewish historian Flavis Josephus (born 37 – died 100). His most famous works were “The Jewish War” (c. 75) and “Antiquities of the Jews” (c. 94). In his autobiography entitled “The Life Of Flavius Josephus” he writes:

…I made mighty proficiency in the improvements of my learning, and appeared to have both a great memory and understanding. Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the high priests and principal men of the city came then frequently to me together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of the law. The Life Of Flavius Josephus, Paragraph 2 http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/autobiog.htm
​

Imagine that, Josephus is a lot like Jesus when he was a child. Coincidence? I don’t think so.

I think your correct Roger.

A few tid bits. Back then 12 was a little adult, and he stayed in the city, not traveling to and from Galilee alone. But agreed alone was even dangerous for a adult traveling.

This teaching as a young man of both characters is more Hellenistic then what would have took place in a hovel like Nazareth, where people that age had to work to survive. Only the rich Hellenist could have afforded school at that age.

It represents Paul and Josephus who are very well skilled at reading and writing, it was not a peasants upbringing.

 

[oldbadger]

Only the rich Hellenist could have afforded school at that age.

Hello Outhouse....

School.......... I thought that all children had to attend religious studies and law school up to the age of 12? Are you saying that this is incorrect?

If so, at what age do you think that Galilean peasant children would have been sent out to work, or given work?

 

[outhouse]

Hello Outhouse....

School.......... I thought that all children had to attend religious studies and law school up to the age of 12? Are you saying that this is incorrect?

If so, at what age do you think that Galilean peasant children would have been sent out to work, or given work?

Work at a early age.


Show me some sources that are not from 200 CE that state their poor oppressed children went to school in rural villages.


That was what made Helleism compelling for rich Jews, they had the best schooling.

 

[nash8]

We actually know nothing about Jesus’s childhood. The story about Jesus being lost after the Feast of the Passover when he was twelve years old is more than likely fabricated. His parents didn’t realize he was missing until a day later while they were returning home from the Passover. This doesn’t say much about the parenting skills of Jesus’s parents. Keep in mind, these country roads are a magnet for thieves and murderers waiting for unsuspecting travelers. Jesus was missing for a total of four days.

After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. (Luke 2:46-47)
​

Most of what we know about first century Palestine comes down to us from the Jewish historian Flavis Josephus (born 37 – died 100). His most famous works were “The Jewish War” (c. 75) and “Antiquities of the Jews” (c. 94). In his autobiography entitled “The Life Of Flavius Josephus” he writes:

…I made mighty proficiency in the improvements of my learning, and appeared to have both a great memory and understanding. Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the high priests and principal men of the city came then frequently to me together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of the law. The Life Of Flavius Josephus, Paragraph 2 http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/autobiog.htm
​

Imagine that, Josephus is a lot like Jesus when he was a child. Coincidence? I don’t think so.

Very good point. So you believe that the references to Jesus' childhood were actually references to Josephus?

I think your correct Roger.

A few tid bits. Back then 12 was a little adult, and he stayed in the city, not traveling to and from Galilee alone. But agreed alone was even dangerous for a adult traveling.

This teaching as a young man of both characters is more Hellenistic then what would have took place in a hovel like Nazareth, where people that age had to work to survive. Only the rich Hellenist could have afforded school at that age.

It represents Paul and Josephus who are very well skilled at reading and writing, it was not a peasants upbringing.

Do you think it represents Paul and Josehpus directly, or just the general hellenized "youth" population being able to discuss law at such a young age.

 

[outhouse]

Very good point. So you believe that the references to Jesus' childhood were actually references to Josephus? .

No, just fiction.

Do you think it represents Paul and Josehpus directly, or just the general hellenized "youth" population being able to discuss law at such a young age

I think it is fiction.

Good education in rural villages would have been very hard to come by.

Hellenist on the other hand had many possibilities.


Remember, it depends on which scholar you follow. If you read up on Ben Witherington, he would vow for a more middle class Nazareth with classes and all Jews well educated. But you asked what I thought. I follow the most current anthropology of the area, not what I want out of scripture.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

What's your opinion on what happen?

The authors weren't creative enough to make anything up.

 

[oldbadger]

Work at a early age.

OK.... so, like me, you're not quite sure about what sort of age kids would have been given work. My 'guess' is that they were capable of doing things at 6 or 7 years.

Show me some sources that are not from 200 CE that state their poor oppressed children went to school in rural villages.

Now why would you challenge me like that, when I only asked a question?

OK, I'll do my best to show what I've read, (but not from writings of those times).........
Wiki has articles which mention that like other villages children would have gone to school and learned Jewish history, Jewish Rules and Laws and Jewish beliefs. But I've copied and pasted them into my folio for my education, rather than to prove source to others.
However, one HJ researcher writes thus:-
If you read up on Ben Witherington, he would vow for a more middle class Nazareth with classes and all Jews well educated. Now that was written by a well known HJ researcher, called....oh...blimey! outhouse....! It was you! And you discounted it.......:sad4:

That was what made Helleism compelling for rich Jews, they had the best schooling.

Show me a source ..... only joking....

But then, it depends on which scholar's flag you are waving.

 

[oldbadger]

We actually know nothing about Jesus’s childhood. The story about Jesus being lost after the Feast of the Passover when he was twelve years old is more than likely fabricated. His parents didn’t realize he was missing until a day later while they were returning home from the Passover. This doesn’t say much about the parenting skills of Jesus’s parents.

Very interesting post, imo......
Apart from tiny snippets of info, I would not take any of G-John into account for HJ studies. There's so much evangelical trad involved within, and so many challenges that it has been adjusted and added to by other pens.

Most of what we know about first century Palestine comes down to us from the Jewish historian Flavis Josephus (born 37 – died 100).

................... he writes:
I made mighty proficiency in the improvements of my learning, and appeared to have both a great memory and understanding. Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the high priests and principal men of the city came then frequently to me together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of the law.

This the first time that anybody has introduced this point for me to read......
Thankyou very much.

 

[outhouse]

Now why would you challenge me like that, when I only asked a question?

.

Was too busy to go through my sources.

And yes it depends on what date the scholar publishes his work. Older work is all over the board.

Newer work in not, it is placing the socioeconomic status in these rural villages as peasants that had a hard time.

 

[oldbadger]

Was too busy to go through my sources.

And yes it depends on what date the scholar publishes his work. Older work is all over the board.

Newer work in not, it is placing the socioeconomic status in these rural villages as peasants that had a hard time.

I agree with you.... I was only being an -rse! :yes:

But I don't think Jesus was at Nazareth for some time before his ministry started. He would have visited, or returned, but I don't think that was his home.

Look at how he walked up to Simon, Andrew, James, John, Levi (and probably Philip) and said , more or less', 'come on then' and they went. They were ready for this. They knew him well. He knew them. And probably young Mark too.

Here's one for you....... Why did Jesus nickname James and John 'Sons of Thunder?'
Possibilities....:-
1. They were the sons of a powerful man 9Zeb) with a thunderous voice.
2. They themselves both had enormous powerful voices for calling across water.
there are more, but....

Now...Why would Jesus bother to point out this ability with a special nickname? How about this....

When making speeches to masses of people either from a boat offshore, or from a hill, Jesus would quickly lose his voice, but if he spoke a sentence to either of the lads, positioned a little way into the crowd, they could 'thunder' the message on outwards. Why not?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

First of all I don't make the claim that anything related to Krishna or Hinduism came from either Jesus or His teachings.

Having said that, the Jesus in India myths such as the Ahmadi one (if I remember how it goes correctly) do not claim that the name Krishna is derived from "Christ". They claim that Jesus came to India after His time on the cross and taught people Christianity, the teachings of which they are alleged to have gotten mixed up and confused, making them into Buddhism. These claims rely on a variety of fabrications and also cite the parralels between Buddhist and Christian teaching.



And I believe that admiration is misplaced.



Quite to the contrary, whilst I don't know who the first person to advance such fabrications was, I certainly do know of Indians who advanced such claims, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad being a case in point.



If you are aware of Jesus in India fabrications by Christians, you are welcome to provide links explaining the hoax, it will all add to an informed discussion of the topic.



Let us not get differing Jesus in India fabrications (JiIF) confused. The JiIF you suggest came from European Christians in which Jesus comes to teach an allegedly (not alleged by me) ignorant Indian population about religion would be Euro-centric. The JiIF in which an ignorant Jesus went to India to learn about religion from Indians for the benefit of Europeans (ie Europeans as defined by luke) would be Indo-centric. Although they are nominally different biases at play, they are all driven by a desire to prove one peoples better than the other, and the other inherently ignorant until receiving the grace of the teaching race.

Wait...isn't Buddhism older that Christianity?

 

[oldbadger]

Wait...isn't Buddhism older that Christianity?

Ha ha!!! This ^^^^ :yes:

 

[james2ko]

What's your opinion on what happen?

I've read some reports He spent His missing years traveling with His uncle Joseph of Arimathea.

 

[oldbadger]

I've read some reports He spent His missing years traveling with His uncle Joseph of Arimathea.

Hi James..... He had a Samaritan Uncle? That makes a lot of sense, considering his use of a Samaritan in the parable.

Do you know any more about this?

 

[james2ko]

Hi James..... He had a Samaritan Uncle? That makes a lot of sense, considering his use of a Samaritan in the parable.

Do you know any more about this?

E Raymond Capt's, "The Traditions of Glastonbury: The Biblical Missing Years of Christ Answered", claims the Talmud lists Joseph of Arimathea as Mary's uncle. It also claims evidence Joseph was a wealthy shipping merchant who provisioned Rome with lead and tin from some of the world's largest mines at the time, among which were in the Mendip Hills of Britain. So wealthy and influential was Joseph that Rome gave him the title, "Nobilus Decurio" (Minister of mines).

It also suggests there is archeological evidence that Jesus traveled extensively with his uncle in his youth, including to Britain. Mary too accompanied them on some of these trips. However, there is no evidence that Jesus' father Joseph ever accompanied them. It is likely that Joseph of Arimathaea became Jesus' legal guardian and Mary's protector, given that Mary's husband Joseph likely died at some time during Jesus' youth. The book is on my "to read" list so I have yet to verify its sources.

 

[nash8]

I think it is fiction.

I'm more asking along the lines of where this fiction got it's inspiration? Why would they add in Jesus speaking about law in the temples? Did Josephus' biography come before or after the first record of this particular gospel verse? Or in other words would it be more likely that Josephus copied this from the gospel or vica versa? Or do you think that the writers of this verse literally just created it out of thin air?

Good education in rural villages would have been very hard to come by.

Good education is not always a requirement of being able to discuss intellectual matters. I've met a few people in my lifetime that have very limited formal education, but they are the most intelligent people I have ever met. I'm sure you've met people like this before. They basically have the ability to understand and analyze in-depth intellectual concepts that are presented to them without any prior knowledge of the subject.

Not saying that Jesus was one of these type of people, just saying formal education is not inherently required to be able to discuss in depth intellectual ideas.

E Raymond Capt's, "The Traditions of Glastonbury: The Biblical Missing Years of Christ Answered", claims the Talmud lists Joseph of Arimathea as Mary's uncle. It also claims evidence Joseph was a wealthy shipping merchant who provisioned Rome with lead and tin from some of the world's largest mines at the time, among which were in the Mendip Hills of Britain. So wealthy and influential was Joseph that Rome gave him the title, "Nobilus Decurio" (Minister of mines).

It also suggests there is archeological evidence that Jesus traveled extensively with his uncle in his youth, including to Britain. Mary too accompanied them on some of these trips. However, there is no evidence that Jesus' father Joseph ever accompanied them. It is likely that Joseph of Arimathaea became Jesus' legal guardian and Mary's protector, given that Mary's husband Joseph likely died at some time during Jesus' youth. The book is on my "to read" list so I have yet to verify its sources.

I've read a book called Jesus The Explosive Story of the 30 Lost Years and the Ancient Mystery Religions.

It covers these stories pretty in depth. There is a lot of correlation, but very little hardcore evidence, at least for Jesus being with his "uncle". There's definitely more evidence (written documents and such) for a man with a similar name to Joseph of Arimathaea traveling to Brittain, but very little for Jesus. Definitely implies a lot of correlation, but skeptics would likely pick it apart very easily.

 

[roger1440]

Very good point. So you believe that the references to Jesus' childhood were actually references to Josephus?

There are a lot of similarities between the two stories. It seems too coincidental they are so much alike. I think it is likely the author of the gospel of Luke used Josephus’s childhood story to formulate Jesus’s childhood story. The author cleverly throws his readers off his scent of deceit. The very first line in the preface to Luke’s Gospel reads, “Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us”. (Luke 1:1) The word “many” implies there was a lot written about Jesus before Luke wrote his own Gospel, but was there? Jesus’s ministry lasted anywhere between a few months to a few years. If we take each and every word Jesus spoke from the four canonical gospels and put them end to end it would only take a few hours to read them. If we would add the Gospel of Thomas to the mix, it wouldn’t be much longer. Jesus either didn’t have much to say doing all that time or the gospel writers didn’t know much about Jesus. There is a pretty good chance Luke didn’t have much to work with when he wrote his gospel. More than likely he had used the Gospel of Mark as one of his sources. If not the Gospel of Mark, then he used whatever the source of Mark was. In addition to the gospel of Mark, Luke had used the hypothetical Q Gospel. The Q gospel may very well have been the Gospel of Thomas. In order to tie together the different themes and stories Luke had gathered he had used a sort of creative license.

 

[roger1440]

Do you think it represents Paul and Josehpus directly, or just the general hellenized "youth" population being able to discuss law at such a young age.

I don’t think there is anything Pauline in any of the canonical gospels. The theology of Jesus is different than the theology of Paul. Jesus was born a Jew. During his life he was an observant Jew. Jesus died as a Jew. Paul on the other hand told the Jews the Torah is obsolete and to throw it out the window. If it wasn’t for Paul the Jews may have followed Jesus.