Lot, One of the Bible's bad Guys

[viole]

And I get so tired of Atheists trying to sell me on their idea of morality, as if their idea of morality is objective.

Please.

The question is not what we think. The question is what you guys think, if you really believe the God of the Bible can be considered an inspirational role model of (objective) moral virtue. If you really do, than this is a bit scary.

Ciao

- viole

 

[columbus]

The God you read there is the figment of the magination of those people and, therefore, necessarily reflects the character and nature of those people at that time.

Another, rather more anti theist meta-message from this Bible story:
Abram's God was rather a putz. He was easily swayed from His plan by a smooth talking human. And He didn't really know what was going on in Sodom, He had to send secret investigators.
That is not the God of Moses. Nor the God of Jesus. The God of Muhammad was Someone else entirely as well.

There is no God of the Scriptures. He is a fictional character who changes over time to meet the goals of the powerful humans who claim to speak for Him.
Tom

 

[McBell]

If they don't deserve forgiveness and a second chance then neither do you and neither do I.

Let the punishment fit the crime...

Honestly, where do you get off judging others?

I am a human.
Humans judge.

Are you perfect?

Nope.
But then, I am not now, nor have I ever, claimed to be.

Do you think if you were born in ancient times and were made King you would've been perfectly just and fair? Come on.

I would like to think I would.
Of course, fairness, just like beauty and good and evil, is subjective.

I do wonder what all this has to do with the issue at hand.
Can't help but think perhaps you are engaging in avoidance....

 

[McBell]

God made us. Our lives come from Him and if He wills it, our deaths. It's His right to give or take away, as He see's fit.

And death isn't a bad thing anyway.

I disagree with the whole "might makes right" philosophy.
Especially when used as an excuse for a deity that is supposed to be better than that.

 

[Skwim]

Lot was a man of God, of course He revered Him. And he did actually try to do the right thing, regardless of the result he still tried. He was not a bad man, atleast that is not what I got from the story. He was just a flawed man, but all the men in the bible were flawed men. Job, David, Abraham, all of them sinned and made mistakes and did bad things. Just like us.

All the men of the Bible were flawed like Lot? Really? And, offering up your two virgin daughters as whores and then having sex with them is not bad?? Boy, your idea of bad is nothing like mine.

And there is only one small reference to Lot's righteousness,

In the OT, where?

So I don't think it was made into an issue.

Not by Peter; however, as I said, Peter certainly made a point of it. Making particular mention of it in 2 Peter 2:7.

In fact the only one who has made it into an issue here is you.

Yes, because here's a guy who offered up his two virgin daughters as whores and then had sex with them, yet Christians consider him to be righteous. Doesn't that seem a bit incongruous to you? If this had been the case with some guy in your neighborhood wouldn't you be wondering what's going on? Why is everyone treating Joe Schmo like a hero after he offered up his two virgin daughters as whores and then had sex with them. If treating such a guy like a hero sounds reasonable to you then I think your moral compass needs a bit of an adjustment.

I wish you would just read the whole chapter, Instead of just cherry picking. It goes on to explain why Lot was considered righteous and who is considered unrighteous.

I did read the whole chapter and it says nothing about him being righteous or doing anything righteous. In fact, I even read Genesis 11- 14, the only other places Lot is mentioned in the OT. However, if you think there's something in the OT that explains why Lot was righteous, please share.

"For if God did not [even] spare angels that sinned, but threw them into hell and sent them to pits of gloom to be kept [there] for judgment; and if He did not spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought [the judgment of] a flood upon the world of the ungodly; and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; and if He rescued righteous Lot, who was tormented by the immoral conduct of unprincipled and ungodly men (for that just man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by what he saw and heard of their lawless acts), then [in light of the fact that all this is true, be sure that] the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and how to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the corrupt passions of the sin nature, and despise authority.

Presumptuous and reckless, self-willed and arrogant [creatures, despising the majesty of the Lord], they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, whereas even angels who are superior in might and power do not bring a reviling (defaming) accusation against them before the Lord. But these [false teachers], like unreasoning animals, [mere] creatures of instinct, born to be captured and destroyed, reviling things they do not understand, will also perish in their own corruption [in their destroying they will be destroyed], suffering wrong [destined for punishment] as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a delight to revel in the daytime [living luxuriously]. They are stains and blemishes [on mankind], reveling in their deceptions even as they feast with you. They have eyes full of adultery, constantly looking for sin, enticing and luring away unstable souls. Having hearts trained in greed, [they are] children of a curse. Abandoning the straight road [that is, the right way to live], they have gone astray..."

As I said, why does 2 Peter 2:7 make a point of calling him righteous? And where does Peter get his information from? Certainly not from the ancient Hebrew writings that were passed down in Genesis, because it's not there. Nope, Peter's characterization of Lot as righteous smacks of baseless hyperbole. Unwarranted and embellished story telling.


.

 

[Thana]

I've never even provoked a fight, so what I have done isn't even comparable. David sent someone to die so he could have his wife, and Lot offered his daughters to be gang raped. We're not talking about petty theft, a drunken brawl, or even sleeping with someone you know is married. We're talking about murder via "divine right to rule" and a man who has absolutely no right or business to call himself a dad. And even though he was drunk, and even though people can do dumb things while drunk, he still had sex with his own daughters. At least my "sins" don't have a negative impact on the lives of others. To say "neither do I," I lied to my mom, frequently, about where I was so I could go hang out with friends and go to concerts. That's not even comparable to sending someone to their death or offering my nieces (I don't have any kids) up for a gang rape.

It's a human thing to do. I judge people like ISIS to be scum of the Earth, and I was talking with one of my nieces last night (she works at the library I used to work at) and we judged one of the higher-ups to be a very sweet, kind, and adorable lady.

If your God saw absolutely nothing wrong with Lot offering his daughters to be gang raped, your God has a seriously broken and distorted moral compass. If you tried that today, regardless of the excuse, CPS would take your children, you would face legal consequences, and society would pretty much be in unanimous agreement that you don't deserve to be a parent or be called a mom/dad.

You have hurt people, it's not right to think lies don't hurt people. And maybe in your mind you're morally untouchable but what about in the minds of the people you've hurt? Maybe someone in high school you said something cruel too or maybe something unconcious you did that offended someone else, To them you're a villian. Maybe not a serial baby killer, but undeserving of forgiveness is undeserving of forgiveness.

But God doesn't measure. Your unbelief is just as bad as my lies, and vice versa. He's got a blanket of forgiveness for everything and everyone.
He gave consequences to David's actions and then forgave Him and loved Him, just like He does for all of us. That is just. Because we're too flawed, biased and hypocritical to judge anyone.

 

[Thana]

If none of us are, it is not clear why He flooded the world killing women and children and just killed everything that walked or crawled on earth at one time or the other. Were they so much worse than a guy who offers his daugther to public rape?

Ciao

- viole

Genesis 6:5
"The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time"

I'm pretty sure that's on a whole other level than making a mistake in defence of your guests.

 

[Thana]

That is bold moral statement.

If I had the technology to create a conscious being, with all the characteristics of us humans, do I have the moral right to destroy it whenever I want?

Ciao

- viole

That's not the right analogy.

If you were a potter and made a vase, do you have the right to destroy it whenever you want?

 

[Thana]

I would like to think I would.
Of course, fairness, just like beauty and good and evil, is subjective.

I do wonder what all this has to do with the issue at hand.
Can't help but think perhaps you are engaging in avoidance....

Morality is subjective. And if you were King back then you would have done many things that today would have been considered morally reprehensible but back then were considered the norm.

I am not avoiding, I am making a point.
None of us have the moral high ground because there is no moral high ground.

 

[LuisDantas]

That's not the right analogy.

If you were a potter and made a vase, do you have the right to destroy it whenever you want?

If I made it sensitive and sentient?

No, I don't think so.

 

[Thana]

I disagree with the whole "might makes right" philosophy.
Especially when used as an excuse for a deity that is supposed to be better than that.

So you don't consider yourself superior to ants then? You don't kill them whenever you please and swat away flies and eat cows and just do whatever you want because you're King of the Jungle, so to speak?

Might makes right. And as humans we've used our might so completely that we even get to decide what is right and wrong and then judge others accordingly. We destroy the planet, kills animals in the millions, cause them to go extinct and all because we're smarter and stronger than they are. Might does make right, Otherwise you wouldn't be an American and I wouldn't be an Australian. But people with their might conquered countries.

 

[Thana]

If I made it sensitive and sentient?

No, I don't think so.

What difference does sentience make?

 

[LuisDantas]

Morality is subjective. And if you were King back then you would have done many things that today would have been considered morally reprehensible but back then were considered the norm.

I am not avoiding, I am making a point.
None of us have the moral high ground because there is no moral high ground.

Are you seriously proposing that God may only appear to have acted immorally and we just do not understand his reasons?

As understandings of morality go, that is a very poor, unadvisable one.

 

[LuisDantas]

What difference does sentience make?

It demands a measure of respect.

 

[Thana]

It demands a measure of respect.

That's the best you got?

 

[LuisDantas]

That's the best you got?

How cute. It is plenty enough, I think. Do you disagree?

 

[Thana]

Yes, because here's a guy who offered up his two virgin daughters as whores and then had sex with them, yet Christians consider him to be righteous. Doesn't that seem a bit incongruous to you? If this had been the case with some guy in your neighborhood wouldn't you be wondering what's going on? Why is everyone treating Joe Schmo like a hero after he offered up his two virgin daughters as whores and then had sex with them. If treating such a guy like a hero sounds reasonable to you then I think your moral compass needs a bit of an adjustment.

He didn't have sex with them, He was raped.
My goodness you all complain about how people don't acknowledge male rape and here is a very obvious case of it and you're just going to victim blame because it suits your agenda?
Thats beyond despicable.

As I said, why does 2 Peter 2:7 make a point of calling him righteous? And where does Peter get his information from? Certainly not from the ancient Hebrew writings that were passed down in Genesis, because it's not there. Nope, Peter's characterization of Lot as righteous smacks of baseless hyperbole. Unwarranted and embellished story telling.
.

Because Lot saw the evil in Sodom and it tormented Him. He recognized it and tried to help people from it in the name of God. That is specifically what was considered righteous about him.

 

[Thana]

How cute. It is plenty enough, I think. Do you disagree?

Yes I disagree.
It's not even an argument. It's pretty much the equivalent of saying 'Because I said so'

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

God made us. Our lives come from Him and if He wills it, our deaths. It's His right to give or take away, as He see's fit.

Then the 'gift of life' is no gift at all. Life is a loan.

And death isn't a bad thing anyway.

Unless you don't use your freewill to freely choose to worship this god of yours who threatens people with eternal torture for not blindly worshipping him.

 

[Thana]

Then the 'gift of life' is no gift at all. Life is a loan.

Exactly. Our lives are not our own.

Unless you don't use your freewill to freely choose to worship this god of yours who threatens people with eternal torture for not blindly worshipping him.

That's not the truth.
We will be judged by our hearts, and that is all.
And God doesn't threaten anyone, The only people you hear that from are Atheists and fundamentalists.