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Lot, One of the Bible's bad Guys

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Well if you feel it's appropriate in a debate to skip over everything in someones post but the first four words than how about I skip over yours entirely?
It's because you so boldly proclaimed that I have hurt people, even though you don't know a damn thing about me. If you want the brutally honest truth, the last person I "hurt" was my mother because she is upset that I am so determined to move away, and not just move away but very far away. It's understandable why she would be hurt, but it also has to be considered from my perspective that I am miserable living here and there is very little chance of me ever finding gainful employment. Yeah, it hurt her, and she even told me I am making her sad. But to use my life and compare it to something like Lot's volunteering his daughters for gang rape of David's invoking "divine right" to send someone to his death so to get his wife, it's actually rather quite insulting to paint with such broad and generalized strokes.
 

McBell

Unbound
So you don't consider yourself superior to ants then?
Please explain the relevance.
Or are you claiming that god looks at us humans like we are ants, to be smashed at his whim?


You don't kill them whenever you please and swat away flies and eat cows and just do whatever you want because you're King of the Jungle, so to speak?
Actually, no, I do not kill, maim, torture, etc simply because some people thing I am king of the jungle.
Of course, Nor do I claim to be all knowing, all powerful, all loving, all merciful, all justified simply because I claim the title god....

Might makes right.
Again, I disagree.
Especially from a deity that is supposed to be better than that.

Interesting can of worms you opened with this picture you paint of your god....

And as humans we've used our might so completely that we even get to decide what is right and wrong and then judge others accordingly.
Making judgement calls requires no might.
Enforcing them is where the might comes in handy.

We destroy the planet, kills animals in the millions, cause them to go extinct and all because we're smarter and stronger than they are. Might does make right, Otherwise you wouldn't be an American and I wouldn't be an Australian. But people with their might conquered countries.
nice little rant.
All to justify the immorality of your god?
interesting how some people give their god a free pass....
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If your God saw absolutely nothing wrong with Lot offering his daughters to be gang raped, your God has a seriously broken and distorted moral compass. If you tried that today, regardless of the excuse, CPS would take your children, you would face legal consequences, and society would pretty much be in unanimous agreement that you don't deserve to be a parent or be called a mom/dad.

Again, you are missing the point. Lot was not offering his virgin daughters to be gang raped for the simple reason that these deviates did not desire sex with women. These girls had lived in Sodom probably all their lives....they were still virgins...get it? They were engaged to be married and yet they were still virgins. God's people had morals, unlike the people in that city.
Their moral character was not corrupted by those around them.

As to the daughters getting their father drunk in order to preserve offspring to carry their father's name, it was a male dominated society. Patriarchs ruled in households. Women had a supportive role. Part of that role was to produce children. With no one else about, alone in the mountains after what appeared to be a nuclear holocaust, they could have believed that they were the only survivors. The daughter's motive were not evil, but actually noble.

You cannot see their actions and judge by today's standards. People back then were cultured very differently....and there were no laws on incest in existence at that time to break.
How do you think Adam and Eve were supposed to populate the earth? There were just two of them.....brothers and sisters were expected to marry and multiply. It wasn't until Israel was formed into a nation that laws on incest were written. Lot was not an Israelite. (The descendants of Jacob were called Israelites.) Lot was Abraham's nephew.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I don't think it takes Einstein to figure that out.

The Bible has been written by bronze age males that had no respect whatsoever for women. They probably thought it was ok to let their daughters be raped, rather than being rude to their guests. The God you read there is the figment of the imagination of those people and, therefore, necessarily reflects the character and nature of those people at that time.

Look how simple my solution is ;)

Ciao

- viole
Simple, but I think wrong. Like I said everyone sins and the Bible does not hide that reality.

'We are told in 1 Corinthians 10:11 that the record of the Old Testament is for an “example” to us. In other words, God gives us the whole truth about biblical characters, their sin, their failures, their victories and good deeds, and we are to learn from their example, what to do and what not to do. In fact, this is one of the ways God teaches us what we need to know in order to make good choices as believers. We can learn the easy way by knowing and obeying God’s Word, we can learn the hard way by suffering the consequences of our mistakes, or we can learn by watching others and “taking heed” from their experiences.

Scripture does not reveal Lot’s reasoning for offering up his daughters. Whatever his thought process was, it was wrong and indefensible. Based on what is revealed about Lot’s life, one might wonder if he was righteous. However, there is no doubt that God had declared him to be positionally righteous, even during his time in Sodom. “And if God rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day with their lawless deeds)” (2 Peter 2:7–8). At some point Lot had believed in the coming Messiah, and that faith resulted in a righteous standing before God. It is likely that Lot’s uncle, Abraham, had passed this truth down to him."


Why did Lot offer up his daughters to be gang raped? Why did God allow Lot's daughters to later have sex with their father?
http://www.gotquestions.org/Lots-daughters.html

So according to the Bible why was Lot considered righteous?

a) his wisdom
b) his behavior
c) his faith
d) his community status
 

Thana

Lady
Obviously you know very little about male physiology, because if you did you'd never use the word raped in this situation. Plus, you'd recognize his culpability in the situation.

Nope. It's because we understand male physiology and you don't. Simple as that.

I'm sorry, what is it specifically about male physiology that I'm not getting? Because he didn't give consent, he was coerced into drinking and then in his intoxicated state his daughters forced themselves upon him. That is rape.

Didn't find this in Genesis at all.

You didn't quote to me Genesis you quoted to me Peter, which is where I found it.

What people? The only people he tried to help was his family, and that's only because the two men he brought into his home had told Lot what they were about to do. It's all in the Bible.

Trying to help people from certain destruction is righteousness? What next, swerving to avoid hitting a pedestrian with you car is righteousness? Thing is, in post 58 you said that righteousness was revering god.

Revering God is done in multiple ways, It's not just one thing. You revere Him with praise, You revere Him with following the Law, you revere Him with meditation and so on and so on.
 

Thana

Lady
It's because you so boldly proclaimed that I have hurt people, even though you don't know a damn thing about me. If you want the brutally honest truth, the last person I "hurt" was my mother because she is upset that I am so determined to move away, and not just move away but very far away. It's understandable why she would be hurt, but it also has to be considered from my perspective that I am miserable living here and there is very little chance of me ever finding gainful employment. Yeah, it hurt her, and she even told me I am making her sad. But to use my life and compare it to something like Lot's volunteering his daughters for gang rape of David's invoking "divine right" to send someone to his death so to get his wife, it's actually rather quite insulting to paint with such broad and generalized strokes.

I don't know you. I know humans though, and you're a human and that's what I based it off. Humans hurt other humans, simple as that.
And if you had of actually read what I said you wouldn't be saying what you're saying, because I already addressed it. But you didn't, you just barrelled through looking for something to be offended by.
 
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Thana

Lady
Please explain the relevance.
Or are you claiming that god looks at us humans like we are ants, to be smashed at his whim?

Actually, no, I do not kill, maim, torture, etc simply because some people thing I am king of the jungle.
Of course, Nor do I claim to be all knowing, all powerful, all loving, all merciful, all justified simply because I claim the title god....

Again, I disagree.
Especially from a deity that is supposed to be better than that.

Interesting can of worms you opened with this picture you paint of your god....

Making judgement calls requires no might.
Enforcing them is where the might comes in handy.


nice little rant.
All to justify the immorality of your god?
interesting how some people give their god a free pass....

I think my idea of God is not that He is immoral, rather He is amoral. Yet you think that the standards He gives us should be applied to Him. At the same time you don't think the same standards for us should be applied to children or animals. Can you really not see it?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I think my idea of God is not that He is immoral, rather He is amoral. Yet you think that the standards He gives us should be applied to Him. At the same time you don't think the same standards for us should be applied to children or animals. Can you really not see it?
There is a serious problem with that model.

It demands God to be amoral, and therefore having no business being God.
 

Thana

Lady
There is a serious problem with that model.

It demands God to be amoral, and therefore having no business being God.

Why is that?
I'd think a being with amorality would be a better judge than a moral one. Who knows what morality it would subscribe to, The Western standard perhaps? Eastern? Medieval? Modern? There are faults to all of them.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Why is that?

An amoral god - particularly an amoral monotheistic, creator God - can hardly be a god worth of serious consideration.

I'd think a being with amorality would be a better judge than a moral one. Who knows what morality it would subscribe to, The Western standard perhaps? Eastern? Medieval? Modern? There are faults to all of them.

If you see any sense in that, then best of luck. I certainly do not.
 

Thana

Lady
An amoral god - particularly an amoral monotheistic, creator God - can hardly be a god worth of serious consideration.

If you see any sense in that, then best of luck. I certainly do not.

You know if you weren't so high up on that horse we might actually be able to have a constructive and benefical discussion.

But whatever.
 

prometheus11

Well-Known Member
You know if you weren't so high up on that horse we might actually be able to have a constructive and benefical discussion.

But whatever.

I don't see any difference. Is Luis any more certain of his axioms than you of yours? No difference in the equestrian statures, imho.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
These girls had lived in Sodom probably all their lives....they were still virgins...get it?
Patriarchs ruled in households.
To be as academically blunt as possible, so what? How does that excuse the behavior or make it acceptable or pardonable? How does it make it "less bad?" How does it make it anything else or less than "hey, don't **** these guys, **** the **** out of my daughters instead!"? Does that mean we should not be so harsh on Southern American slave owners, because, hey, that's just how it was? Those child slaves, that's all they knew. If they were forced to be separated from their parents, that's just how it was. They lived their entire lives in slavery, after all, in cultures that that had economies and societies entirely built upon slavery. Should we say "oh well," because that's just how it was, or should we make sure that we realize and remember just how wrong wrong was?
And if you had of actually read what I said you wouldn't be saying what you're saying, because I already addressed it.
I did read it. There is no comparison. Lot volunteered his daughters to be gang raped. That is not the characteristics of a righteous man, but rather a "Grade A" piece of ****. There is also the fact you accused me of "hurting people" without even knowing me. If you really want to know, us Aspies are known for being brutally honest, and not even realizing the "benefits" of lying until much later than other children do; we'll just blurt out the facts - and to us Aspies the facts are the facts and nothing else really maters expect for the facts - not even realizing what the "social aspects" of being honest may imply or entail. I know what my "sins" are according to the Bible. They do not, at all, in any way, make me a bad person. I did some bad things when I was younger and in a very bad position psychologically, but for nearly a decade the only "bad" thing I have done is violating speed limit laws, violating seat belt laws if I'm just driving down the road, violating drug laws, and having sex outside of marriage. You said I "hurt people," but how so? I suppose last night I put into my nieces head ideas that hurt her ex-boyfriend that she was having a problem with, but I had only her well being in mind when I told her not to even consider taking him back. Yeah, my mom is hurt and upset that I want to get away from here, but where I live if you can't work at a factory you can expect to be stuck at crappy minimum wage jobs. It shocks and upsets people that I am a communist and very anti-capitalist, but when you hear my positions I make it clear that it is the capitalists, not me, who is doing the harm. You say I "harm others," but I don't even like killing flies or spiders. Yes, I cheated on a mid-term by copy/pasting an answer because I felt a bit lazy and I knew the answer to the questions and I had them typed out ahead of time, but that had grand net total of zero harm to anyone. Of course it could be said to harm myself, but I was familiar with the content before hand (it largely had to do with the concepts and ideas behind Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas).
What you aren't doing is putting things in perspective. I'll state it again: Only a real *******, actually, only a real ****ing ******* would volunteer his daughters to be gang raped. That involves harm, violations, psychological damage, and good god if you can't trust your own parent(s), who the hell can you trust? If your king, who is allegedly appointed by god to rule over people, sends someone on a suicide mission just so he can have that person's wife, how can we ever call that person righteous? At my absolute worst I may have caused banks some money, but on the flip side some contractors, as well as those who work at a scrap yard (where I went has a very bad rep for being loose with such theft), got some work out of it. Yes, it was wrong, I realize that, I realize I was desperate to belong and to have some group to be a part of, but no one ever died, no one was ever done physical harm, and no one was physically or sexually assaulted. It's called perspective. Yes, my greatest wrongs are not as wrong as sending someone on a suicide mission or offering your children to a mob to be raped and then having drunken sex with your child. Punching someone and breaking their jaw because you're having a bad day is not the same as stabbing someone in the carotid artery because you're having a bad day. Yes, both are wrong, but only is likely to result in death.
 

Thana

Lady
I did read it. There is no comparison. Lot volunteered his daughters to be gang raped. That is not the characteristics of a righteous man, but rather a "Grade A" piece of ****. There is also the fact you accused me of "hurting people" without even knowing me. If you really want to know, us Aspies are known for being brutally honest, and not even realizing the "benefits" of lying until much later than other children do; we'll just blurt out the facts - and to us Aspies the facts are the facts and nothing else really maters expect for the facts - not even realizing what the "social aspects" of being honest may imply or entail. I know what my "sins" are according to the Bible. They do not, at all, in any way, make me a bad person. I did some bad things when I was younger and in a very bad position psychologically, but for nearly a decade the only "bad" thing I have done is violating speed limit laws, violating seat belt laws if I'm just driving down the road, violating drug laws, and having sex outside of marriage. You said I "hurt people," but how so? I suppose last night I put into my nieces head ideas that hurt her ex-boyfriend that she was having a problem with, but I had only her well being in mind when I told her not to even consider taking him back. Yeah, my mom is hurt and upset that I want to get away from here, but where I live if you can't work at a factory you can expect to be stuck at crappy minimum wage jobs. It shocks and upsets people that I am a communist and very anti-capitalist, but when you hear my positions I make it clear that it is the capitalists, not me, who is doing the harm. You say I "harm others," but I don't even like killing flies or spiders. Yes, I cheated on a mid-term by copy/pasting an answer because I felt a bit lazy and I knew the answer to the questions and I had them typed out ahead of time, but that had grand net total of zero harm to anyone. Of course it could be said to harm myself, but I was familiar with the content before hand (it largely had to do with the concepts and ideas behind Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas).
What you aren't doing is putting things in perspective. I'll state it again: Only a real *******, actually, only a real ****ing ******* would volunteer his daughters to be gang raped. That involves harm, violations, psychological damage, and good god if you can't trust your own parent(s), who the hell can you trust? If your king, who is allegedly appointed by god to rule over people, sends someone on a suicide mission just so he can have that person's wife, how can we ever call that person righteous? At my absolute worst I may have caused banks some money, but on the flip side some contractors, as well as those who work at a scrap yard (where I went has a very bad rep for being loose with such theft), got some work out of it. Yes, it was wrong, I realize that, I realize I was desperate to belong and to have some group to be a part of, but no one ever died, no one was ever done physical harm, and no one was physically or sexually assaulted. It's called perspective. Yes, my greatest wrongs are not as wrong as sending someone on a suicide mission or offering your children to a mob to be raped and then having drunken sex with your child. Punching someone and breaking their jaw because you're having a bad day is not the same as stabbing someone in the carotid artery because you're having a bad day. Yes, both are wrong, but only is likely to result in death.

If I judged your character based solely on the worst thing you've ever done, would you think I'd get an accurate understanding of you?
No.
So why do you feel justified in doing it to Lot?

And just an observation, nothing untoward behind it, but I think you may have gotten overly personal there.
 
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McBell

Unbound
I think my idea of God is not that He is immoral, rather He is amoral. Yet you think that the standards He gives us should be applied to Him. At the same time you don't think the same standards for us should be applied to children or animals. Can you really not see it?

You tend to ignore all the things you claim to know about your unknowable god the second they get in the way of what you want your god to be.
Don't get me wrong, you are free to do so.
Just do not expect everyone to offer up the same free pass you give to your god.
 

Thana

Lady
You tend to ignore all the things you claim to know about your unknowable god the second they get in the way of what you want your god to be.
Don't get me wrong, you are free to do so.
Just do not expect everyone to offer up the same free pass you give to your god.

Mmhmm....
And yet you tell me I'm the one who is adept at avoidance.
I think someone needs to look in the mirror.
 
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