LOTR Debate: Identity of Tom Bombadil

[RestlessSoul]

I enjoyed "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man". But after that he gets very difficult.

My ex wife loved that, which surprised me. I never finished it, nor Ulysses. My dad lent me a James Joyce that’s supposed to help you decode Ulysses, but why read - or write - a novel that needs decoding to that extent? I don’t mind being challenged, but I expect a novel to have a coherent narrative, at least.

I’ll go further, while I’m on the subject; for me, Joyce is a bargain basement Dostoevsky, with neither the wit nor wisdom, nor the intellectual swagger, of that most introspective of Russian novelists.

 

[sun rise]

I read this the other day. Count me as a Tolkien ubernerd. The Scouring finally made sense after reading:

Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings: Return of the King needed one more ending
The case for the Scouring of the Shire

Nobody likes the Scouring of the Shire. It’s anticlimactic. It’s depressing. It complicates the themes of The Lord of the Rings, interrupting the flow of the happy homecoming we feel our heroes deserve. It’s essentially another adventure into itself, a repetition in micro of the last several hundred pages we spent reading.

And speaking from experience, when you advocate for its inclusion to a movie viewer, you sound like you have fully lost your mind...
...
Our heroes can’t return home, because even their home has been irreversibly marred by the conflict they prevailed against — more than any other effect on The Lord of the Rings, the Scouring of the Shire absolutely destroys Frodo. Frodo’s story in Tolkien’s The Return of the King is of a character who wants some control over his destiny, and fails to find it over and over.

After struggling for so long with the burden of carrying the Ring, he ultimately fails, claiming its power for his own and forcing Gollum to wrest it from him. On the journey through Mordor, Frodo speaks of how he wishes to never carry a weapon or strike a blow again,...
...
The Scouring of the Shire is the element that expands The Lord of the Rings from intricately crafted adventure fiction to timeless literary relatability. It is what separates Tolkien from his imitators, who throw a hero and a wizard and a sword and a journey together and call their Aragorn Story Lord of the Rings-inspired.

More than any other speech, or fight, or character, the Scouring of the Shire makes The Lord of the Rings a war story, in which some come home to fame, fortune, and just reward, others never truly come home at all, and both are still heroes. A story of glorious, necessary battles that, in its final chapter, shows that a thing can be glorious, necessary, celebrated, and still wrong.

 

[ChristineM]

I see high adventure against impossible odds for the good of the world against looming evil where people's imperfections are in full display is not your thing.

While taking a long walk

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I haven't watched the video. But I would suggest Tom is one of the Ainur, mostly because he acts as a kind of foil to Sauron. He is free and jolly and full of life and hope while Sauron imprisons, extinguishes hope, destroys. He also has power in his song, similar to the other Ainur.

 

[ChristineM]

That you are more of a theist than you wish to admit, traitor

Oh no, i was looking to see if the bible was the reason for the bloody awful Christian behaviour in my childhood church. It was all there in detail, the rejection and hatred of difference.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

While taking a long walk

The road goes ever on...

 

[Samael_Khan]

Oh no, i was looking to see if the bible was the reason for the bloody awful Christian behaviour in my childhood church. It was all there in detail, the rejection and hatred of difference.

OOOOH!!! So you had practical motivation. I can see how that would cause you to read the book in its entirety. Good on you for doing that.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I couldnt read it either.

What is the worst best seller you tried to read

It just goes to show how bad fantasy used to be before Tolkien.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Sounds like I'm in the minority here: Love Tolkein; have read LOTR about once a year for the last five decades; have read all of his other works (which includes those completed/reported by his son Christopher) at least twice. Led me to read a lot of the underlying Norse, Celtic and Germanic mythology, and mythologists such as Campbell and the like...

So sue me!

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Sounds like I'm in the minority here: Love Tolkein; have read LOTR about once a year for the last five decades; have read all of his other works (which includes those completed/reported by his son Christopher) at least twice. Led me to read a lot of the underlying Norse, Celtic and Germanic mythology, and mythologists such as Campbell and the like...

So sue me!

Ditto! On all accounts...

 

[ChristineM]

OOOOH!!! So you had practical motivation. I can see how that would cause you to read the book in its entirety. Good on you for doing that.

It actually goes a lot deeper than that, it was the second book i ever read following diagnosis of my dyslexia and visual aids prescribed, i only learned to read about 4 months before i began reading it.

 

[firedragon]

If you are new to fantasy literature you may be unaware of the legendary stature of author J.R. Tolkien and his famous work: The Lord of the Rings and its associated other writings. These altogether form a consistent universe though we sometimes cannot workout how parts of it are consistent. Hence this debate. Tolkien casts a long shadow and completely reinvents and transforms fantasy. In works of fantasy time is divided in half. There is Before Tolkien and there is After Tolkien. If you write after Tolkien your fantasy work must stack up against Tolkien and be measured in percentages of LOTR's greatness. It can never be as great, unless of course you transform Fantasy again and take us into The Third Age of Fantasy.

The Debate about the identity of Tom Bambadil arises from Tolkien's refusal to explain seeming contradictions about him, which are actually not contradictions but a mystery to be solved. Bombadil is ancient, yet he's not a an elf or this or that...etc. The excellent youtube channel "Nerd of the Rings" tries to crack his identity but still falls short.

Spoiler: Nerd of the rings 5 theories of bombadil

So. If you feel you are up to it I have a 6th theory, and perhaps you have a 7th, or perhaps you are a fan of one of the famous five. Let us establish the truth in this matter, the secret which J.R. Tolkien himself withheld and perhaps swore to himself to forget.

Im a fan. What a post.

I think Bombadil given his such special powers and status, almost a god-like figure. I watched your YouTube video. I agree immediately with the first theory. But not quite. Fair Lady Goldberry said "he is" not just like "I am", but more like the word Hashem (I am not using the tetragrammaton). It basically means quite similar. He lives.

I think Tolkien is punning on that. Also, I think he inserted him into the story since Bombadil was created before LOTR, and that he will be a mystery that people will discuss, so he intentionally created this figure and left it as it is. He is ancient, and no one knows his beginning or end, like Melchizedek or even Jesus himself as in Alpha and Omega. And when the gang visited him, master merry gets stuck in a tree and was choking (if I remember right), and Bombadil says "the tree better behave" as in he is in command and his wishes in the form of a song as he says better be observed. He waves his arms and wards off the rain. He sings in an ancient language they dont understand. BUT he is no master of the riders, and he does not know if they will be followed tomorrow or tonight for sure.

This I believe has been intentionally inserted just to leave you wondering, like you are doing after almost a century or something.

Amazing man. Thanks.

 

[Samael_Khan]

It actually goes a lot deeper than that, it was the second book i ever read following diagnosis of my dyslexia and visual aids prescribed, i only learned to read about 4 months before i began reading it.

Whaaaaat?! That is quite a hectic read for only your second book.

 

[ChristineM]

Whaaaaat?! That is quite a hectic read for only your second book.

Yes, but i was determined, that made all the difference. Started at the beginning and read on to the end. (I have done it with 2 other versions of the bible too to compare, its quite surprising how different they are). I doubt many christians have read ever page of the bible

 

[RestlessSoul]

Yes, but i was determined, that made all the difference. Started at the beginning and read on to the end. (I have done it with 2 other versions of the bible too to compare, its quite surprising how different they are). I doubt many christians have read ever page of the bible

Almost certainly they won’t have done. I’m not sure there’s even a universal Christian consensus as to precisely which books comprise The Bible. It’s quite an eccentric undertaking tbh.

 

[sayak83]

If you are new to fantasy literature you may be unaware of the legendary stature of author J.R. Tolkien and his famous work: The Lord of the Rings and its associated other writings. These altogether form a consistent universe though we sometimes cannot workout how parts of it are consistent. Hence this debate. Tolkien casts a long shadow and completely reinvents and transforms fantasy. In works of fantasy time is divided in half. There is Before Tolkien and there is After Tolkien. If you write after Tolkien your fantasy work must stack up against Tolkien and be measured in percentages of LOTR's greatness. It can never be as great, unless of course you transform Fantasy again and take us into The Third Age of Fantasy.

The Debate about the identity of Tom Bambadil arises from Tolkien's refusal to explain seeming contradictions about him, which are actually not contradictions but a mystery to be solved. Bombadil is ancient, yet he's not a an elf or this or that...etc. The excellent youtube channel "Nerd of the Rings" tries to crack his identity but still falls short.

Spoiler: Nerd of the rings 5 theories of bombadil

So. If you feel you are up to it I have a 6th theory, and perhaps you have a 7th, or perhaps you are a fan of one of the famous five. Let us establish the truth in this matter, the secret which J.R. Tolkien himself withheld and perhaps swore to himself to forget.

I failed in two subjects in midterms of my 2nd year as I was too busy reading LOTR for 7 days straight....

 

[Brickjectivity]

I failed in two subjects in midterms of my 2nd year as I was too busy reading LOTR for 7 days straight....

I saw the Hobbit cartoon, then read The Hobbit, then read LOTR then read The Silmarillion. LOTR was difficult in that he loved scenery and describing it. I kept losing my place, but I eventually got through it.

 

[blü 2]

If you are new to fantasy literature you may be unaware of the legendary stature of author J.R. Tolkien and his famous work: The Lord of the Rings and its associated other writings. These altogether form a consistent universe though we sometimes cannot workout how parts of it are consistent. Hence this debate. Tolkien casts a long shadow and completely reinvents and transforms fantasy. In works of fantasy time is divided in half. There is Before Tolkien and there is After Tolkien. If you write after Tolkien your fantasy work must stack up against Tolkien and be measured in percentages of LOTR's greatness. It can never be as great, unless of course you transform Fantasy again and take us into The Third Age of Fantasy.

The Debate about the identity of Tom Bambadil arises from Tolkien's refusal to explain seeming contradictions about him, which are actually not contradictions but a mystery to be solved. Bombadil is ancient, yet he's not a an elf or this or that...etc. The excellent youtube channel "Nerd of the Rings" tries to crack his identity but still falls short.

So. If you feel you are up to it I have a 6th theory, and perhaps you have a 7th, or perhaps you are a fan of one of the famous five. Let us establish the truth in this matter, the secret which J.R. Tolkien himself withheld and perhaps swore to himself to forget.

I'm not much on LOTR theories, but I'm reminded of this.

Andrew Motion, in his biography of Philip Larkin, Philip Larkin: a Writer's Life (1993) says of Larkin's time as a student at Oxford University:

‘He [Larkin] didn’t go to lectures much,’ [Kingsley] Amis says. ‘Not even [C.S.] Lewis, who was marvellous. Not Tolkien, either, but then he was an appalling lecturer. He spoke unclearly and slurred the important words, and then he’d write them on the blackboard but keep standing between them and us, then wipe them off before he turned round.’​

Nobody's perfect, I guess.

 

[Debater Slayer]

***Mod Post***

Thread moved to General Debates.​

 

[sayak83]

If you are new to fantasy literature you may be unaware of the legendary stature of author J.R. Tolkien and his famous work: The Lord of the Rings and its associated other writings. These altogether form a consistent universe though we sometimes cannot workout how parts of it are consistent. Hence this debate. Tolkien casts a long shadow and completely reinvents and transforms fantasy. In works of fantasy time is divided in half. There is Before Tolkien and there is After Tolkien. If you write after Tolkien your fantasy work must stack up against Tolkien and be measured in percentages of LOTR's greatness. It can never be as great, unless of course you transform Fantasy again and take us into The Third Age of Fantasy.

The Debate about the identity of Tom Bambadil arises from Tolkien's refusal to explain seeming contradictions about him, which are actually not contradictions but a mystery to be solved. Bombadil is ancient, yet he's not a an elf or this or that...etc. The excellent youtube channel "Nerd of the Rings" tries to crack his identity but still falls short.

Spoiler: Nerd of the rings 5 theories of bombadil

So. If you feel you are up to it I have a 6th theory, and perhaps you have a 7th, or perhaps you are a fan of one of the famous five. Let us establish the truth in this matter, the secret which J.R. Tolkien himself withheld and perhaps swore to himself to forget.

A maiar.