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Love your enemies

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
This does not address what I was asking about.
Also, I am definitely not a Christian and think the
"love / forgive" is not merely bonkers, but profoundly
against human nature. The bible gets a lot of things
wrong, that is another example.

I dont think it is ideal at all to try to coerce people to
deceive themselves into a stance that they do not
and cannot really have.

if you wish to address the substance of my post here
it is

Those who have not experienced such a thing are of course
not fully able to say, but still, what do you think?

I don't have too much aversion to christianity as many. I was using that as a point of comparison.

Would we expect someone's mind and values to change that they see someone as an enemy not worthy of love once they experienced a horrific event?

Assuming we do not need to go through horrific events to form opinions based on our fixed values.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
"Love" with no criteria is not love.

Why would we call it love if everyone treats other people good or bad based on their own criteria?

If the context of love is positive (assuming that it should be?) then regardless our individual limitations, it should still be (or should be) to the benefit the person giving the love without necessarily counting on the person who receives it to feel the same.

It's one thing to put barriers between people whose actions you despise from not speaking to that person or feeling they aren't worth your respect. It's another to "choose" not forgive the person despite the barriers and opinions you put about her.

I try to love other people regardless of who they are because that's how I feel inside I should do. My feelings of revenge and punishment is influenced by society not me. I feel conflicted when thinking about it. That love doesn't mean I accept the person's actions. I don't even have to be around the person. Forgiveness is not for their sake but for my own. If I cannot forgive based on "my" wellbeing, then I'm defining my morals and values on someone else's actions.

Why do we base the value of our love on someone else's actions?

Another less complex example is giving to the homeless. A lot of people won't give money to the homeless if "they think" that person will use it for drinking. They base their love, their charity, on the actions of the other person not on their own actions. Of course most things can be justified since we can only make intelligent assumptions. On the other hand, that criteria "I will only give if they use it for food" is not charity. Charity is selfless.

Likewise with loving enemies. Love is selfless. Of course you don't have to respect the people you love (which is unfortunate) but that's only if you believe one's actions is a reflection of that person. I don't see it that way.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It's not easy to forgive and love. It's probably something many people won't do to their worst enemy. The concept is still the same, though. People literally won't love their enemies because they think in doing so they accept their actions. I'm not sure if those who feel "they are their actions" can tell the difference.

it is possible to love the person but not their actions, but it is possible to forgive them, especially if they have a mental illness that make them not knowing what they do.

Think of a child. If that child hits his brother, do you stop loving your child or do you correct him on his actions?

If that child keeps thinking their parent is telling him he is not worthy their love because of his actions, that child would go feeling that he is his actions (inherited sin). However, he is not.

The nature of the wrong and the age of the person doesn't excuse the point.


Do you blame a gun for killing someone or the human who pulled the trigger. Although some actions are deplorable and extremely painful both physically and mentally those actions are driven by the human mind.

@Amanaki , mental illness does not come into it. Although it can be argued that those who deliberately inflict pain must in some way have a mental aberration. In which case one attempts to get them the help they need before they repeat there action. That does not mean you forgive or love them. It just means you are humain?

@Unveiled Artist , childish squabbles were not the premise of the OP (or perhaps i misunderstood)
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
@Amanaki , mental illness does not come into it. Although it can be argued that those who deliberately inflict pain must in some way have a mental aberration. In which case one attempts to get them the help they need before they repeat there action. That does not mean you forgive or love them. It just means you are humain?
To me it is showing compassion to those who are in need of help, even when they have cause harm to me. I would not support harming others human or any other living being, But when i can not see the cause of why someone was harmed, I believe it has to do with past karmic issues, because if you harm someone, one must repay that harm with suffering one self. So when someone get beaten it could be karma that is in motion. (that is my own understanding of it, and i know few will believe the way i do, and i dont ask others to see it the way i do)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@Unveiled Artist , childish squabbles were not the premise of the OP (or perhaps i misunderstood)

I was going off your replies instead of the OP.

All i can say is that i cannot understand your distinction. It is the human being who carried out the action.

The human carries the action. He isn't the action itself.

It's alright to blame the action. People hate a lot of other people's actions.

That does not mean they need to hate the person who committed it. A person committed the actions not defined by it.

With the OP.

Do you believe you can love your enemies?

Sure you can. As long as you don't define them by the actions you hate, then, although hard, I don't see it not worthwhile. It just means seeing your enemy as a human being not as a child molester, killer, what (not who) ever.

People say the type of crime (stepping on toes compared to child abuse) justifies whether one is worthy of forgiveness. If you base your values on someone else's actions, then of course, that makes sense. If I saw someone as their actions, I wouldn't be friends with anyone. Since I do talk to people,it goes beyond that. Regardless of what they do (and believe me, I've been around people who did 'a lot').

Edit.
Reminds me of when I was in rehab program for people with disabilities. People with various crimes needed jobs so their probation officer made it mandatory to go to the same place I was at. I met one guy who raped a friend of mine I met outside the place. She told me about it. He also told me a list of other crimes. I still talked with him. We laughed, chit chatted. The only difference is I was around people. In the building. In the van with the county staff etc. But he is still a human being.

Same with a lot of people. They know what they did. They know their situation. But they just want human respect. It's sad that just being human is still not worthy of someone else's love.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
No, it wouldn't. I generally assune that anyone who says that they "love their enemies" doesn't actually love them.

I can see that. If one loved their enemies, they wouldn't refer to them as enemies. We don't need to be around a person to still love them as a human being.

That, and people have different definitions of love. One doesn't need to accept a person's actions to love them as a human being rather than a killer, abuser, or so have you.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Do you believe you can love your enemies?

If so, would it make sense to call the person you love an enemy?

Love your enemies means for example loving (and forgiving) Hitler.

Do you love your enemies?
An enemy is someone antagonistic towards you. You do not have to be antagonistic back. So, yes you can love your enemies. Not always easy but it's possible. You did not make them an enemy. They just are by their hostility. That is not your fault. They are your enemy. You know it. You accept it. But you love them regardless ...

As for forgiving Hitler ... that would imply Hitler did something to you. What did Hitler do to you? Are you forgiving Hitler for something he did to someone else? By what authority do you forgive and pardon Hitler for doing something to someone else?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
To me it is showing compassion to those who are in need of help, even when they have cause harm to me. I would not support harming others human or any other living being, But when i can not see the cause of why someone was harmed, I believe it has to do with past karmic issues, because if you harm someone, one must repay that harm with suffering one self. So when someone get beaten it could be karma that is in motion. (that is my own understanding of it, and i know few will believe the way i do, and i dont ask others to see it the way i do)

No one has cause to harm you.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I was going off your replies instead of the OP.



The human carries the action. He isn't the action itself.

It's alright to blame the action. People hate a lot of other people's actions.

That does not mean they need to hate the person who committed it. A person committed the actions not defined by it.

With the OP.

Do you believe you can love your enemies?

Sure you can. As long as you don't define them by the actions you hate, then, although hard, I don't see it not worthwhile. It just means seeing your enemy as a human being not as a child molester, killer, what (not who) ever.

People say the type of crime (stepping on toes compared to child abuse) justifies whether one is worthy of forgiveness. If you base your values on someone else's actions, then of course, that makes sense. If I saw someone as their actions, I wouldn't be friends with anyone. Since I do talk to people,it goes beyond that. Regardless of what they do (and believe me, I've been around people who did 'a lot').

Edit.
Reminds me of when I was in rehab program for people with disabilities. People with various crimes needed jobs so their probation officer made it mandatory to go to the same place I was at. I met one guy who raped a friend of mine I met outside the place. She told me about it. He also told me a list of other crimes. I still talked with him. We laughed, chit chatted. The only difference is I was around people. In the building. In the van with the county staff etc. But he is still a human being.

Same with a lot of people. They know what they did. They know their situation. But they just want human respect. It's sad that just being human is still not worthy of someone else's love.

Cant work for me, i dont blame the gun, i blame the shooter
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
As for forgiving Hitler ... that would imply Hitler did something to you. What did Hitler do to you? Are you forgiving Hitler for something he did to someone else? By what authority do you forgive and pardon Hitler for doing something to someone else?

I concur with your first paragraph, which I think captures the rationale behind not responding to "hatred with hatred" well.

In terms of your second paragraph above, though....

https://commandperformanceleadership.wordpress.com/2012/06/14/franklin-d-roosevelt-flag-day-address/

We are all of us children of Earth
Grant us that simple knowledge

If our brothers are oppressed,
then we are oppressed

If they hunger, we hunger

If their freedom is taken away,
our freedom is not secure


-Franklin D. Roosevelt, June 14,1942


Hitler was responsible for setting in motion and sanctioning acts of territorial aggression, deportation, racial discrimination, mass murder, unethical human experimentation, extrajudicial executions, torture, political repression and forced labour that amounted to "crimes against humanity". The grave consequences of these decisions were for humanity as a whole, not just certain individuals or isolated groups of people.

There were few people living on the planet Earth from 1933-1945 who were entirely unaffected by decisions then made by Hitler and his regime, given that World War II impacted people living in countries across the globe, whether as soldiers or civilians. Many of us on this forum will have recent ancestors from that period whose lives were in some sense marred by the outbreak of the conflict that Hitler directly provoked and the consequences of those actions have left lasting physical, emotional and psychological trauma that carried down through generations of family members after the original victims.

Both of my maternal great-grandfathers died in that War as part of the armed forces, such that my maternal grandmother and grandfather each grew up without their fathers. My grandmother still feels his loss to this day. My paternal grandfather, still living at 87, lost his aunt/uncle and all his close cousins on one side of his family as a result of Luftwaffe bombing during the Blitz.

Hitler caused a war that "harmed" living members of my family directly, later generations indirectly, and his crimes were against humanity.
 
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Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
No one has cause to harm you.
During my life i was bullied for more than 12 years specially in school. But i forgave them many years ago, no need to hold on to it, it is in the past.

Today, there is no bullying because i dont let them bully me anymore. But i have been harmed physically and mentally many man times during my life. And maybe it has given me the chance to show compassion back to those who are bullies, because i now understand why they do it.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
During my life i was bullied for more than 12 years specially in school. But i forgave them many years ago, no need to hold on to it, it is in the past.

Today, there is no bullying because i dont let them bully me anymore. But i have been harmed physically and mentally many man times during my life. And maybe it has given me the chance to show compassion back to those who are bullies, because i now understand why they do it.

Again we are not talking forgive and forgetting here but love for your enemies. Love for those who bullied you.

Yes i too was bullied, i was the tall, skinny girl who was too thick to read. It goes down great at school for kids to have a target. It is horrible for the victim, but it is essentially children being children.

Considering what at least 2 of us on this thread have had to accept and have to live with, bullying (although a serious problem) does not get close.

Some things you must accept, you live with, you try and forget (if the continuing nightmares will let you) but you can never forgive the perpetrator, let alone love them.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I concur with your first paragraph, which I think captures the rationale behind not responding to "hatred with hatred" well.

In terms of your second paragraph above, though....

https://commandperformanceleadership.wordpress.com/2012/06/14/franklin-d-roosevelt-flag-day-address/

We are all of us children of Earth
Grant us that simple knowledge

If our brothers are oppressed,
then we are oppressed

If they hunger, we hunger

If their freedom is taken away,
our freedom is not secure


-Franklin D. Roosevelt, June 14,1942


Hitler was responsible for setting in motion and sanctioning acts of territorial aggression, deportation, racial discrimination, mass murder, unethical human experimentation, extrajudicial executions, torture, political repression and forced labour that amounted to "crimes against humanity". The grave consequences of these decisions were for humanity as a whole, not just certain individuals or isolated groups of people.

There were few people living on the planet Earth from 1933-1945 who were entirely unaffected by decisions then made by Hitler and his regime, given that World War II impacted people living in countries across the globe, whether as soldiers or civilians. Many of us on this forum will have recent ancestors from that period whose lives were in some sense marred by the outbreak of the conflict that Hitler directly provoked and the consequences of those actions have left lasting physical, emotional and psychological trauma that carried down through generations of family members after the original victims.

Both of my maternal great-grandfathers died in that War as part of the armed forces, such that my maternal grandmother and grandfather each grew up without their fathers. My grandmother still feels his loss to this day. My paternal grandfather, still living at 87, lost his aunt/uncle and all his close cousins on one side of his family as a result of Luftwaffe bombing during the Blitz.

Hitler caused a war that "harmed" living members of my family directly, later generations indirectly, and his crimes were against humanity.


Although i concur with most of your comments about hitler i should say that it was Neville Chamberlain that began WWII. Hitler invaded Poland, Chamberlain demanded he withdraw or face war. He would not withdraw so Britain declared war on Germany.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I concur with your first paragraph, which I think captures the rationale behind not responding to "hatred with hatred" well.

In terms of your second paragraph above, though....

https://commandperformanceleadership.wordpress.com/2012/06/14/franklin-d-roosevelt-flag-day-address/

We are all of us children of Earth
Grant us that simple knowledge

If our brothers are oppressed,
then we are oppressed

If they hunger, we hunger

If their freedom is taken away,
our freedom is not secure


-Franklin D. Roosevelt, June 14,1942


Hitler was responsible for setting in motion and sanctioning acts of territorial aggression, deportation, racial discrimination, mass murder, unethical human experimentation, extrajudicial executions, torture, political repression and forced labour that amounted to "crimes against humanity". The grave consequences of these decisions were for humanity as a whole, not just certain individuals or isolated groups of people.

There were few people living on the planet Earth from 1933-1945 who were entirely unaffected by decisions then made by Hitler and his regime, given that World War II impacted people living in countries across the globe, whether as soldiers or civilians. Many of us on this forum will have recent ancestors from that period whose lives were in some sense marred by the outbreak of the conflict that Hitler directly provoked and the consequences of those actions have left lasting physical, emotional and psychological trauma that carried down through generations of family members after the original victims.

Both of my maternal great-grandfathers died in that War as part of the armed forces, such that my maternal grandmother and grandfather each grew up without their fathers. My grandmother still feels his loss to this day. My paternal grandfather, still living at 87, lost his aunt/uncle and all his close cousins on one side of his family as a result of Luftwaffe bombing during the Blitz.

Hitler caused a war that "harmed" living members of my family directly, later generations indirectly, and his crimes were against humanity.
Whatever negative consequence I personally experienced because of Hitler is easy to forgive. But do you have the right to forgive what happened to someone else?

Because true forgiveness is to let someone go without punishment. If Hitler was alive I would refuse to let him go without punishment for what he did to others. I could only forgive what happened to me. I couldn't forgive him for crimes he did to other people. I don't have the right.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
@Unveiled Artist

CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Institutes, Book VI (Lactantius)


"Therefore kindness is the greatest bond of human society; and he who has broken this is to be deemed impious, and a parricide. For if we all derive our origin from one man, whom God created, we are plainly of one blood; and therefore it must be considered the greatest wickedness to hate a man, even though guilty.

On which account God has enjoined that enmities are never to be contracted by us, but that they are always to be removed, so that we soothe those who are our enemies, by reminding them of their relationship. Likewise, if we are all inspired and animated by one God, what else are we than brothers?"

(Lactantius (c. 250 – c. 325), Early Church Father)


I definitely believe it is possible for someone to love their enemies, in spite of this being one of the hardest things to do and requiring a lot of moral courage. Even the worst human beings are still human beings - "A Man's a Man for a' That" as the Scottish bard Robert Burns, the man who wrote the lyrics for Auld Lang Syne, in 1795.

The word chosen by the Buddha for this teaching is metta from mitta, a friend. In the verse of the Dhammpada in question he uses averena: "na hi verena verāni sammantīdha kudācanaṃ averena ca sammanti esa dhammo sanantano" (DhP 5) This literally means "non-hatred":


Dhammapada - Sayings of Buddha - Translated by S. Wannapok


"He abused me, he beat me,
He defeated me, he robbed me",
In those who harbour such thoughts
Hatred never ceases.

"He abused me, he beat me,
He defeated me, he robbed me",
In those who harbour not such thoughts
Hatred finds its end.

At any time in this world,
Hatred never ceases by hatred,
But through non-hatred it ceases
This is an eternal law.


Gatha 5


Again, a very simple truth, that most of the religions in the history have stressed again and again. The only cure for hatred is the abstention from it. Never can we stop people from hating us by hating them. In this way, mutual hatred will rise -- often to the point when hatred gives way to violence.

We have all had to contend with hostile forces at some stage during our lives - persons or people who have wronged us individually or other people we love or entire groups of people we hold dear.

The Good Friday Agreement of 1998, the peace settlement that brought an end to decades of terrorist / paramilitary brutality and internecine ethno-sectarian civil war in Northern Ireland, is probably a paradigmatic example on the "macro-scale" (in terms of entire communities that deemed their neighbours, collectively, to be 'enemies').

The cycle of violence could have continued, as it had for decades before, unabated. So many, on both sides of the Loyalist - Nationalist divide, had every reason to pursue vengeance for the extrajudicial killings, reprisals, maimings and massacres that had been perpetrated against their families and respective communities.

But Northern Ireland chose a different path in 1998, one that saw former enemies of the highest order - hitherto IRA men like Martin McGuinness and Loyalist-paramilitary inciters such as Ian Paisley - eventually coming together for the common good and even forging friendships, in the context of a power-sharing administration that brought the representatives of both communities into one government.


How Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley forged an unlikely friendship

From sworn enemies to the "Chuckle Brothers", Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley became Northern Ireland's most unlikely double act.

One was a former IRA commander, the other once stood up in the European Parliament to denounce the Pope as the Antichrist.

But remarkably, against all the odds, a deep friendship developed between these clashing figures that enabled the Northern Ireland peace process.

So, yes, you can learn to love an enemy - to see the person beyond the 'label', beyond the partisanship, and even to differentiate the human being, with inalienable rights just like yourself, from their harmful conduct.

If I may quote the scholar Udo Schnelle in relation to Jesus's teaching on this: "In its unqualified form, [Jesus's] command to love one's enemies is without analogy. To be sure, there are close parallels in Judaism and elsewhere in the Hellenistic world, but they always include various motives as their basis and thus are not really the same as Jesus's unqualified demand [...] Because the Creator himself demolishes the friend-foe schema by his loving-kindness towards good and bad people alike (Matthew 5:45), human beings too can violate the conventional boundaries between friend and enemy, and the category "enemy" becomes meaningless" (Theology of the New Testament, p.116).

This is actually stated as the intent behind Jesus's famous motto in the first century Christian catechism The Didache:


Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).


"But love those who hate you, and you shall not have an enemy"


Sometimes, that attempt to reach out, forgive and return good for the evil received can result in reconciliation, in enemies becoming friends. In some cases, this will sadly not happen but the strength to abandon the hate can still enable a victim to move on and rebuild their life.

If a person has lost a loved one to a murderer, say in a terror attack, yet still maintains that capital punishment is a moral wrong and sees justice for the victim served through the court process with a prison sentence, I regard this as being akin to an implicit love of enemies. It is a recognition that, for all the heinous evil this person has done you, he or she remains a human being and there is no point in compounding the tragedy of your loved one's loss with yet more shedding of blood or death.

In Europe, state executions of incarcerated citizens are viewed as human rights abuses. Even Russia operates a moratorium on the practice at the federal level (despite assassinating people extra-judicially) to remain a member of the Council of Europe and a party to the European Convention on Human Rights (1953), which prohibits capital punishment. The only European country that continues to execute criminals is the last dictatorial regime on the continent, Belarus.

The early church father Lactantius was prescient far ahead of his time back in the third century CE when he wrote:


"For he who reckons it a pleasure, that a man, though justly condemned, should be slain in his sight, pollutes his conscience as much as if he should become a spectator and a sharer of a homicide which is secretly committed. Being imbued with this practice, they have lost their humanity.

For when God forbids us to kill, He not only prohibits us from open violence, which is not even allowed by the public laws, but He warns us against the commission of those things which are esteemed lawful among men.

Thus it will be neither lawful for a just man to engage in warfare, since his warfare is justice itself, nor to accuse any one of a capital charge, because it makes no difference whether you put a man to death by word, or rather by the sword, since it is the act of putting to death itself which is prohibited. Therefore, with regard to this precept of God, there ought to be no exception at all; but that it is always unlawful to put to death a man, whom God willed to be a sacred animal
" (Div. inst., VI.20)



According to some polling data, almost half of Americans regard the justice of ''an eye for an eye'' and endorse execution as social vengeance. That view is anathema among many Europeans. I view moral endorsement of the death penalty as barely more advanced than the ancient Mesopotamian Law of Hammurabi or the days of human and animal sacrifice. Sections 191-282 of Hammurabi layout appropriate punishments for crimes. Several follow the strict “eye for an eye” formula. Capital punishment and draconian sentencing are a vestige of this.

If you believe that crimes mean a person forfeits their rights or becomes sub-human, then you don't believe that rights are inalienable and inviolable as we do here in Europe. As was stated back in the 19th century:


opponents [of the death penalty] stand on the admitted general rule that human life is sacred; or, as it is stated in our national declaration, that the right to life is among the ‘inalienable rights’.” [Burleigh, Thoughts on the Death Penalty, 1847]​


(continued...)
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Earlier than even Gautama Buddha, a sentiment akin in nature to this esa dhammo sanantano "unending truth" (as the Pali Dhammapada calls it, very poignantly) of loving-kindness appeasing hatred and never responding to harm with harm, or continuing to harbour thoughts of hatred / memories of past wrongs, was taught in the Jewish Book of Proverbs in the Tanakh:


"If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat, and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink" (Proverbs 25:21)


This was written, perhaps, around the 8th century BCE but the proverbs themselves have been identified by scholars as representing a pattern of Near East wisdom tradition going back more than a millennium. In the late seventh century BCE, the Second Book of Kings provides the reader with an exemplification of what this teaching amounted to in practice, in the context of an actual state of war with an 'enemy' nation:



"Now the king of Syria was making war against Israel...Therefore he sent horses and chariots and a great army there, and they came by night and surrounded the city.

Now when the king of Israel saw them, he said to Elisha, “My father, shall I kill them? Shall I kill them?”

But he answered, “You shall not kill them. Would you kill those whom you have taken captive with your sword and your bow? Set food and water before them, that they may eat and drink and go to their master.” 23Then he prepared a great feast for them; and after they ate and drank, he sent them away and they went to their master. So the bands of Syrian raiders came no more into the land of Israel.
"

(2 Kings 6:14, 21-23)



As you can see from the above, the King of Israel expected the prophet Elisha to endorse his impulse to slaughter the Syrian soldiers in retaliation for their invasion of his country.

But Elisha, quite to the contrary, tells him not only to desist from killing them but to feed and hydrate them with a feast, an act of almost incomprehensible 'loving-kindness' given the circumstances of a state of hostilities between the two kingdoms.

And we learn, from the ancient biblical author, that the Syrians never again raided Israel. The cycle of violence had been broken by Elisha's metta.

The same teaching, in principle, is attributed to Moses in the Torah (which is actually post-exilic in origin, despite posing as a much earlier text) dated by scholars to the sixth century BCE:


"If you see the donkey of one who hates you fallen under its load, do not leave it there; you must help him with it" (Exodus 23:5)


So the Buddha was spot on: it really is an ancient law of moral conduct. We also find it in the late Stoics Seneca and Epictetus of the first and second centuries CE. The former said in De Otio 1.4: "We shall never cease to work for the common good, to help each and all, to give aid even to our enemies".

I very much like the unique spin Jesus put on this 'ancient ethic' by plainly stating "love your enemies" and grounding it, as a monotheist Himself, in the undiscriminating love of God who affords the exact same rights through mother nature to all people - whether good or bad, guilty or innocent - as our exemplar:


"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. For He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matthew 5:44-45)
 
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