Loving God = Eternal Torture?

[Unification]

So, I've been an ex-Christian for about 4 years now, and one thing still irks me even to this day. In evangelical Christianity (in which I was raised...and I suppose most denominations of Christianity in general,) it is believed that God is supposedly love (1 John 4:8), yet at the same time, it is believed that God tortures people for eternity in hell. It would be one thing if it were temporary and corrective, but it isn't... it is eternal. What purpose does an eternal hell serve, exactly? Can someone who is willing to torture his own "children" for eternity be seen as "loving?" That just sort of sounds like an episode of Criminal Minds. Even if God cannot "allow sin into heaven," why not just annihilate the person, both body and soul? Why is torture necessary?

It's just a tool of man to create fear to get you to do this or do that for their church building... Whatever set of mankind rules they choose from the bible which they have no clue what much of it truly means to control one.

 

[Unification]

Terror and wrath are a means of force. The promise of death, damnation and the eradication of entire populations, is most definitely a kind terrifying force. Psalms 137:9 "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." What do you call this, gentle cajoling? Friendly advice?

Children are seeds of knowledge, either bad or evil... Not literal children.

 

[Kolibri]

The promise of death, damnation and the eradication of entire populations, is most definitely a kind terrifying force. Psalms 137:9 "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." What do you call this, gentle cajoling? Friendly advice?

You forgot to the previous stanza, that puts this all in perspective.

O daughter of Babylon, who is soon to be devastated,
Happy will be the one who rewards you
With the treatment you inflicted on us.
Happy will be the one who seizes your children
And dashes them against the rocks!
- Psalm 137:8,9

Summon the archers against Babylon,
All who are bending the bow.
Camp all around her; let no one escape.
Repay her according to her activity.
Do to her just as she has done.
For she has acted arrogantly against Jehovah,
Against the Holy one of Israel.
...
This is what Jehovah of armies says:
"The people of Israel and Judah are oppressed,
And all those taking them captive have held onto them.
They have refused to let them go.
But their Repurchaser is strong.
Jehovah of armies is his name.
He will surely plead their legal case,
In order to give rest to the land
And to bring agitation to the inhabitants of Babylon."
- Jeremiah 50:29,33,34

While loss of life is always sad, the end result of adverse judgement is a source of happiness.

The wicked one is a ransom for the righteous one,
And the treacherous one will be taken in the place of the upright.
- Proverbs 21:18

Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more;
You will look at where they were,
And they will not be there.
But the meek will possess the earth,
And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
- Psalm 37:9,10

Peace is only completely possible with those who oppress are no longer present.

 

[sojourner]

Children are seeds of knowledge, either bad or evil... Not literal children.

You have no idea what you're talking about here. Yes, this is literal children -- the children of the enemy. In that culture, children = salvation. No children, no salvation. This is a psalm of lament that rails against the psalmist's enemy. Babylon was Israel's captor and did everything they could to destroy the Hebrew culture.

 

[Unification]

You have no idea what you're talking about here. Yes, this is literal children -- the children of the enemy. In that culture, children = salvation. No children, no salvation. This is a psalm of lament that rails against the psalmist's enemy. Babylon was Israel's captor and did everything they could to destroy the Hebrew culture.

Children are seeds of knowledge. (Knowledge of either good or evil) impregnated in the brain. No seed of light(knowledge of good-God = no salvation.) Seeds of darkness(knowledge of confusion-Babyon- one's own understanding)
Of course confusion and worthless evil knowledge would hold Godly knowledge captive inside of the human.
Evil knowledge destroys good knowledge. Good knowledge destroys evil knowledge.
Adam (right brain/consciousness) impregnates Eve (left brain/subconscious) with either good or evil seeds of knowledge stored in the brain that consume and infest a human.
Making the two whole. The single eye. Marriage of husband and wife.
Light shining evenly from "East to West."
That crafty mind/reptilian brain (serpent) of yours is in your way, sir.

 

[evenpath]

You forgot to the previous stanza, that puts this all in perspective.

O daughter of Babylon, who is soon to be devastated,
Happy will be the one who rewards you
With the treatment you inflicted on us.
Happy will be the one who seizes your children
And dashes them against the rocks!
- Psalm 137:8,9

Summon the archers against Babylon,
All who are bending the bow.
Camp all around her; let no one escape.
Repay her according to her activity.
Do to her just as she has done.
For she has acted arrogantly against Jehovah,
Against the Holy one of Israel.
...
This is what Jehovah of armies says:
"The people of Israel and Judah are oppressed,
And all those taking them captive have held onto them.
They have refused to let them go.
But their Repurchaser is strong.
Jehovah of armies is his name.
He will surely plead their legal case,
In order to give rest to the land
And to bring agitation to the inhabitants of Babylon."
- Jeremiah 50:29,33,34

While loss of life is always sad, the end result of adverse judgement is a source of happiness.

The wicked one is a ransom for the righteous one,
And the treacherous one will be taken in the place of the upright.
- Proverbs 21:18

Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more;
You will look at where they were,
And they will not be there.
But the meek will possess the earth,
And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
- Psalm 37:9,10

Peace is only completely possible with those who oppress are no longer present.

You forgot to the previous stanza, that puts this all in perspective.

O daughter of Babylon, who is soon to be devastated,
Happy will be the one who rewards you
With the treatment you inflicted on us.
Happy will be the one who seizes your children
And dashes them against the rocks!
- Psalm 137:8,9

Summon the archers against Babylon,
All who are bending the bow.
Camp all around her; let no one escape.
Repay her according to her activity.
Do to her just as she has done.
For she has acted arrogantly against Jehovah,
Against the Holy one of Israel.
...
This is what Jehovah of armies says:
"The people of Israel and Judah are oppressed,
And all those taking them captive have held onto them.
They have refused to let them go.
But their Repurchaser is strong.
Jehovah of armies is his name.
He will surely plead their legal case,
In order to give rest to the land
And to bring agitation to the inhabitants of Babylon."
- Jeremiah 50:29,33,34

While loss of life is always sad, the end result of adverse judgement is a source of happiness.

The wicked one is a ransom for the righteous one,
And the treacherous one will be taken in the place of the upright.
- Proverbs 21:18

Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more;
You will look at where they were,
And they will not be there.
But the meek will possess the earth,
And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
- Psalm 37:9,10

Peace is only completely possible with those who oppress are no longer present.

Oh no, I didn't forget. I left it out. I'm quite comfortable with the perspective that does not include armies and rivers of blood. I'm quite secure with the perspective of compassion and forgiveness. I'm quite uncomfortable with a god that sanctions war and terrorism. We can see in modern times how well that's working out.

 

[Unification]

Oh know, I didn't forget. I left it out. I'm quite comfortable with the perspective that does not include armies and rivers of blood. I'm quite secure with the perspective of compassion and forgiveness. I'm quite uncomfortable with a god that sanctions war and terrorism. We can see in modern times how well that's working out.

I love what you just said, of compassion and forgiveness .
It's working out because that's mankinds wisdom and knowledge. God's wisdom and knowledge would have the human know that they are the holy land and they matter, the human is the house of God.

 

[Kolibri]

Oh no, I didn't forget. I left it out. I'm quite comfortable with the perspective that does not include armies and rivers of blood. I'm quite secure with the perspective of compassion and forgiveness. I'm quite uncomfortable with a god that sanctions war and terrorism. We can see in modern times how well that's working out.

The wars of today were never sanctioned by God. But I can see why you are adverse to war from the examples set by men.

 

[evenpath]

The wars of today were never sanctioned by God. But I can see why you are adverse to war from the examples set by men.

There are many jihadist who would disagree, which is what I was (in roundabout way), referring to.

 

[sojourner]

Children are seeds of knowledge. (Knowledge of either good or evil) impregnated in the brain. No seed of light(knowledge of good-God = no salvation.) Seeds of darkness(knowledge of confusion-Babyon- one's own understanding)
Of course confusion and worthless evil knowledge would hold Godly knowledge captive inside of the human.
Evil knowledge destroys good knowledge. Good knowledge destroys evil knowledge.
Adam (right brain/consciousness) impregnates Eve (left brain/subconscious) with either good or evil seeds of knowledge stored in the brain that consume and infest a human.
Making the two whole. The single eye. Marriage of husband and wife.
Light shining evenly from "East to West."
That crafty mind/reptilian brain (serpent) of yours is in your way, sir.

Those metaphors simply aren't congruent with the theology of the time frame and culture of the stories and poetry. These are nice ideas -- in a New Age kind of way, but the ancient Hebrews just didn't put that much metaphorical depth into the psalms. This is a psalm of lament, pure and simple -- not some lesson in the metaphysics of wisdom.

 

[Kolibri]

There are many jihadist who would disagree, which is what I was (in roundabout way), referring to.

Jehovah's Witnesses understand that humans' choice to engage in any form of physical warfare has been illicit for Christians since Jesus told Peter to put away the sword when he was arrested.
Now if there is a need for physical war, the only kind that is sanctioned is the one where Jehovah uses his spirit sons, the angels, to fight instead. There is however an account of Jehovah putting the will to destroy part of this world's system in the heart of another part, so it would be humans against humans. But in this, God's human servants were not to be the aggressors. (Re 17:17)

Jihadists will do as they see fit. But it is not supported by the Bible.

 

[sojourner]

Oh no, I didn't forget. I left it out. I'm quite comfortable with the perspective that does not include armies and rivers of blood. I'm quite secure with the perspective of compassion and forgiveness. I'm quite uncomfortable with a god that sanctions war and terrorism. We can see in modern times how well that's working out.

I understand and applaud your commitment to compassion and peace, for that is the Christian ideal. However, being committed to those things includes looking at the world with eyes wide open. IOW, you can't just stick your head in the sand where tough biblical passages are concerned, and pretend they don't exist. They exist for a reason. That reason is to preserve the whole tradition of God's people. Armies and rivers of blood have historically been a HUGE component of Hebraic life. The Hebrews have had more than the lion's share of being subjugated, taken over, exiled, and exterminated. Plus, the psalm has nothing to do with modern times. It has everything to do with ruthless Babylonians who routed them, enslaved them, exterminated them, and devastated their culture. For these ancient people, a God who loved them and saved them was a God who would rout their enemies in return. And, in order to come to grips with our own sense of retaliation and bid for peace, we have to come to grips with the roots of the Xy (ancient Judaism) that strives for peace over war.

It's real easy for us to dismiss the idea of retaliation, until we're in the shoes of those who are chronically and systemically oppressed.

 

[evenpath]

Jehovah's Witnesses understand that humans' choice to engage in any form of physical warfare has been illicit for Christians since Jesus told Peter to put away the sword when he was arrested.
Now if there is a need for physical war, the only kind that is sanctioned is the one where Jehovah uses his spirit sons, the angels, to fight instead. There is however an account of Jehovah putting the will to destroy part of this world's system in the heart of another part, so it would be humans against humans. But in this, God's human servants were not to be the aggressors. (Re 17:17)

Jihadists will do as they see fit. But it is not supported by the Bible.[/QU

Jehovah's Witnesses understand that humans' choice to engage in any form of physical warfare has been illicit for Christians since Jesus told Peter to put away the sword when he was arrested.
Now if there is a need for physical war, the only kind that is sanctioned is the one where Jehovah uses his spirit sons, the angels, to fight instead. There is however an account of Jehovah putting the will to destroy part of this world's system in the heart of another part, so it would be humans against humans. But in this, God's human servants were not to be the aggressors. (Re 17:17)

Jihadists will do as they see fit. But it is not supported by the Bible.

OTE]

It was in direct reference to muslim extremism, which according to them is well supported in the Quran. A discussion for a different thread….

 

[Unification]

Those metaphors simply aren't congruent with the theology of the time frame and culture of the stories and poetry. These are nice ideas -- in a New Age kind of way, but the ancient Hebrews just didn't put that much metaphorical depth into the psalms. This is a psalm of lament, pure and simple -- not some lesson in the metaphysics of wisdom.

I'm not so sure it's New Age, it's everything Jesus and Paul taught and that was long ago.
I'm not so sure God is teaching historical lessons, and content that old would be skeptical and have no reliable sources whatsoever besides what mankind's conditioned minds have created and made up over the years. Past and future are not of God. Experiencing God is the present and now. God has no time frame or a particular culture. God is all and not a respector of persons.

 

[Unification]

Those metaphors simply aren't congruent with the theology of the time frame and culture of the stories and poetry. These are nice ideas -- in a New Age kind of way, but the ancient Hebrews just didn't put that much metaphorical depth into the psalms. This is a psalm of lament, pure and simple -- not some lesson in the metaphysics of wisdom.

Theology such as "dispensionalism" and such does not help.
Literal nation and heritage Israel have no relevance or special favor and privileges, and never have. Israel was always metaphorical for anyone of anywhere over the world who strives with God, internally with a sound heart and mind.

 

[Unification]

I understand and applaud your commitment to compassion and peace, for that is the Christian ideal. However, being committed to those things includes looking at the world with eyes wide open. IOW, you can't just stick your head in the sand where tough biblical passages are concerned, and pretend they don't exist. They exist for a reason. That reason is to preserve the whole tradition of God's people. Armies and rivers of blood have historically been a HUGE component of Hebraic life. The Hebrews have had more than the lion's share of being subjugated, taken over, exiled, and exterminated. Plus, the psalm has nothing to do with modern times. It has everything to do with ruthless Babylonians who routed them, enslaved them, exterminated them, and devastated their culture. For these ancient people, a God who loved them and saved them was a God who would rout their enemies in return. And, in order to come to grips with our own sense of retaliation and bid for peace, we have to come to grips with the roots of the Xy (ancient Judaism) that strives for peace over war.

It's real easy for us to dismiss the idea of retaliation, until we're in the shoes of those who are chronically and systemically oppressed.

If I may ask, do you stand with literal nation Israel right now?

 

[Me Myself]

Yes Christians who who have no works have a dead faith. This means they lose some of their heavenly treasures and their current peaceful fellowship with God, but that does not mean they lose their eternal salvation.

Jesus was very clear on what happens to those who go Lord Lord but dont do the acts.

If you dont do stuff for others, Jesus doesnt know you. Crystal clear on that.

 

[sojourner]

it's everything Jesus and Paul taught

Jesus and Paul didn't teach in the OT.

I'm not so sure God is teaching historical lessons,

What does God teaching historical lessons have to do with the Psalms??

content that old would be skeptical and have no reliable sources whatsoever besides what mankind's conditioned minds have created and made up over the years.

First of all, if content that old would be skeptical, then your interpretation is as suspect as anyone else's. Second, we have the benefit of Judaic Tradition and scholastic exegesis to help us out here.

Past and future are not of God. Experiencing God is the present and now. God has no time frame or a particular culture.

But the bible does, and it is written within a historical framework.

God is all and not a respector of persons.

This is not germane to the topic.

 

[sojourner]

Theology such as "dispensionalism" and such does not help.

I didn't mention dispensationism. Nor is it part of the Psalm in question. I have no idea what you're on about here.

Literal nation and heritage Israel have no relevance or special favor and privileges, and never have.

Uh huh. And I'll bet you've got a bottle of Grandad's old Elixir that's guaranteed to cure dropsy, too.

Israel was always metaphorical for anyone of anywhere over the world who strives with God, internally with a sound heart and mind.

Uh, no. This is a Xian concept that you're superimposing on the Hebrew texts and Hebrew cultural mind set.

 

[sojourner]

If I may ask, do you stand with literal nation Israel right now?

Where I stand on that topic is both complicated and irrelevant to this discussion.