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Loyalty, vows, following orders. Is this ethical and in what way?

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It seems to me that loyalty can only be ethical within a group or within a system of groups of people. It could be said that hierarchies of control depend upon loyalty. Even so loyalty may call upon a person to betray someone or some people or to harm themselves.

Vows are like contracts with the gods or God or government as guarantor. Vows also are commitments: moments in which a person decides they will make something happen. A person can also vow to obey unforeseeable commands. This is what taking public office means. You give away your morality for someone else's.

Following orders means doing what you are told without thinking about it. This requires brainwashing.

Are the above things healthy? Are they necessary? Are they supportable in a moral person: a person who believes in making moral decisions?

*** To whoever participates: I expect a range of answers and no simple one size fits all solution. By the way I am not skilled in ethics or philosophy, so please forgive that.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
I believe one's first and only true loyalty is due their honor. This can be difficult to accept in today's world as "honor" has often been reshaped into one's reputation as viewed by the outside, and in my mind, that is completely backwards.

Honor is integrity. Honor is conscious. Honor is tzedakah, or doing the right thing. If one believes in God, then God's will should be built into their honor. If God's will is built into their honor, then they may oftentimes find themselves in a conundrum to be loyal to this, that, or the other, or to be loyal to their HONOR.

And with recognition and ownership of one's honor comes the responsibility to tread on it lightly. Be careful of promises. Think clearly before taking affirmations. Follow no one, nor no thing blindly. This is a case for the positive view of Shakespeare's line: To thine ownself be true.
 

JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
It seems to me that loyalty can only be ethical within a group or within a system of groups of people. It could be said that hierarchies of control depend upon loyalty. Even so loyalty may call upon a person to betray someone or some people or to harm themselves.

Vows are like contracts with the gods or God or government as guarantor. Vows also are commitments: moments in which a person decides they will make something happen. A person can also vow to obey unforeseeable commands. This is what taking public office means. You give away your morality for someone else's.

Following orders means doing what you are told without thinking about it. This requires brainwashing.

Are the above things healthy? Are they necessary? Are they supportable in a moral person: a person who believes in making moral decisions?

*** To whoever participates: I expect a range of answers and no simple one size fits all solution. By the way I am not skilled in ethics or philosophy, so please forgive that.
I don't know as to their health. It seems to be loyal to some things would be immoral. Loyalty to nothing may(I said may) be immoral.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
It seems to me that loyalty can only be ethical within a group or within a system of groups of people. It could be said that hierarchies of control depend upon loyalty. Even so loyalty may call upon a person to betray someone or some people or to harm themselves.

Vows are like contracts with the gods or God or government as guarantor. Vows also are commitments: moments in which a person decides they will make something happen. A person can also vow to obey unforeseeable commands. This is what taking public office means. You give away your morality for someone else's.

Following orders means doing what you are told without thinking about it. This requires brainwashing.

Are the above things healthy? Are they necessary? Are they supportable in a moral person: a person who believes in making moral decisions?

*** To whoever participates: I expect a range of answers and no simple one size fits all solution. By the way I am not skilled in ethics or philosophy, so please forgive that.
All this philosophical conflict is due to the philosophy of relative morality. If we assume morality is relative, then each group and even each person can define their own relative morality. This allows each group to be true to itself and also make anything honorable in the group. It is only when there is a system of absolute morality; same for all, that judgment of members within various groups is possible. A terrorists who helps their group will be seen as honorable in relative morality, even if dishonorable in absolute morality.

Relative morality needs things to be more clannish, with no common standard of right and wrong or good and evil beyond the clan being the only good, in a relative sense. Both the good and evil of absolute morality, can exist in each clan, since relative morality has room for both; ends justifies the means. The clan needs its bad boys to do the dirty work that the evil can conjure up.

With an absolute standard of morality, the good and the evil become more distinct and separated within each group, since each group can police itself. What ends up happening is cultural clans, internally divide and then they remerge into just two bigger groups, good and evil, with only one battle line instead of dozens.

The concept of God, is about a theoretical entity that is higher in the evolutionary scale compared to humans. This is seen as a good choice for rules, if the goal is an absolute system of morality that applies to all evolving humans. However, this exposes evil, which can do much better, using good humans as human shields, via group relative morality. All clans have good people who naturally follow absolute morality. They have a line in the sand while being part of the clan; much less extreme.

The assassins, in spy versus spy, are both Patriots and criminals based on your relative morality. But in absolute morality both are evil. This is why evil needs to get rid of religion and anyone who pushes for absolute morality, since it sets high too bright and exposes evil. Evil works best when it can be free, like a virus, to invades groups and form pockets of zombie relative morality, to help it thrive.

If we were to separate humans into good and evil, in an absolute moral sense, with a big wall between, the naturally good would thrive within absolute morality, since law would be scaled back due to their natural instinct to do good.

The bad would continue to use relative morality, within the evil, redistributing itself as clans; semi to full scale brutal and evil. The lessor of the evils would seek sanctuary with the good. The good would allow this, but it will plant the seed of discontent, as law increases again, since being good is only show for the evil; actors. This causes clans to form and we are back to relative morality.

Liberalism is clan based due to relative morality. Now each clan has a day, week or month of celebration, to hide the evil among them. It becomes clan versus clan, such as black vs white, male vs female, natural vs cyborg, etc, each seeing itself as good, all with the ends justify the means, so evil can express itself freely within the relative morality of its creations. America was the melting pot; good and evil, but now we have all the clans. The light on the hill is not quite as bright to the rest of the world; decline via relative morality.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It seems to me that loyalty can only be ethical within a group or within a system of groups of people. It could be said that hierarchies of control depend upon loyalty. Even so loyalty may call upon a person to betray someone or some people or to harm themselves.

Vows are like contracts with the gods or God or government as guarantor. Vows also are commitments: moments in which a person decides they will make something happen. A person can also vow to obey unforeseeable commands. This is what taking public office means. You give away your morality for someone else's.

Following orders means doing what you are told without thinking about it. This requires brainwashing.

Are the above things healthy? Are they necessary? Are they supportable in a moral person: a person who believes in making moral decisions?

*** To whoever participates: I expect a range of answers and no simple one size fits all solution. By the way I am not skilled in ethics or philosophy, so please forgive that.

I think blind loyalty can be harmful and possibly considered amoral. There's also a certain amoral detachment that comes with the phrase "just following orders" or "just doing my job."

In a military situation, where it's some kind of life or death struggle and there's no time to argue, I can see where it might be necessary to follow orders for one's own survival. But even then, it's not always clear cut. But if an order turns out to be the wrong thing to do, then the person giving the order should be held to account, more so than the person carrying it out.

In situations where someone is "just doing their job," that's a bit more nebulous, since it doesn't involve a specific "order," but more of a personal interpretation of what someone's purview might be. That's what one might usually hear from cops or bureaucrats, who are still part of a hierarchy and subject to orders, but oftentimes operate semi-independently and with a good deal of discretionary authority. What they do should be regarded as their own personal, moral choice, not "following orders."
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
The only loyalty I take up is to positive character trait standards found in the virtues. Those that exploit, and don't mean well I have no loyalty to whatsoever. Loyalty can be withdrawn from those that don't live up to anything of good mean. It all comes down to what the true nature of someone is.

So in a world dominated by exploitive power I would just fend for myself and mind my inner loyalty to myself. Exploitive people are not necessary, and are the ones who do the brainwashing. It's best to be alone than to entertain such people. There's no social need of such people.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems to me that loyalty can only be ethical within a group or within a system of groups of people.
I don't know why you say that. One can be loyal to a group, but one can also be loyal to a person, which could be an ethical choice as with loyalty to a spouse. It might also be unethical, as with Michael Cohen's loyalty to Trump, which led to his committing crimes for Trump.
Vows are like contracts with the gods or God or government as guarantor.
Vows are promises that need not be kept. Wedding vows are a good example. In that sense, they are not like being sworn in in a courtroom or a contract, each of which makes one legally responsible to keep his promises.

I think that you and I have different conceptions of loyalty. When I think about who and what I am loyal to, "following orders," hierarchies, and vows aren't a part of it. I've never promised loyalty to any of the people (I'm including my dogs here) or things I am loyal to except perhaps with wedding vows, which don't make one loyal nor keep one loyal.

Personal integrity can be thought of as loyalty to one's principles. Love is a form of loyalty in the sense of facilitating the well-being of another. But neither of those need to be spoken nor is there any promise made that needs to be kept. Patriotism is a form of loyalty. There may be a loyalty Pledge, but those are just words, not a binding promise.

Cheating on taxes is a form of disloyalty. I saw the unwillingness to cooperate during the pandemic as a form of disloyalty. One is criminal and the other not, but it's not the criminality of tax evasion that makes it disloyalty. It's the fact that it harms one's own society. One is being disloyal to his neighbors who do pay their taxes, which would be true even were there no penalty.
A person can also vow to obey unforeseeable commands. This is what taking public office means. You give away your morality for someone else's.
I don't think you mean that. No elected official is compelled to compromise his or her morality. Maybe you meant give away a little autonomy.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
On the subject of loyalty, I always recall this quote from Elbert Hubbard:

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I don't know if I entirely agree with it, but it might be considered more honorable and ethical to resign first, if one can't guarantee one's loyalty. That would make it a more principled stance, as opposed to remaining part of an institution for whatever perks and benefits one might derive, but the moment they have to do something they don't like, they bail.

I'm reminded of the time of the First Gulf War, where a lot of people in the peacetime volunteer military suddenly wanted to opt out, which suggested that they just joined for the perks and not because they genuinely wanted to serve out of national loyalty.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't know why you say that. One can be loyal to a group, but one can also be loyal to a person, which could be an ethical choice as with loyalty to a spouse. It might also be unethical, as with Michael Cohen's loyalty to Trump, which led to his committing crimes for Trump.
Good points. I think I'm gathering info about loyalty, but at the same time I'm thinking about how important it is to be loyal to other people, to groups vs to self. Loyalty is usually what we call commitment. Loyalty has a value, and it plays a part in how we all live together. If people believe you are trustworthy then you are considered loyal. So far in the thread some people have pointed out that loyalty to our own internal conscience is what they think is most important. I notice that most people do not live according to that however and are shaped by the people around them. With groups your loyalty has a value on it. With an individual, too, but that is also a group.

Loyalty is more often than not a one way deal. Your example of Cohen and Trump adds to it, but the example of one person loyal to a disloyal person is more like a hostage situation. I don't know what Trump does to hold Cohen's silence. Perhaps he is actually loyal to himself and perhaps Trump uses that against him. Companies demand loyalty as do armies and nations, but they rarely are as loyal to individuals as what is demanded, so it is usually one sided when its a group vs an individual. Even so, to be disloyal means that companies, armies and nations cannot function; so that loyalty is an ethical question even though it is unfair.
Vows are promises that need not be kept. Wedding vows are a good example. In that sense, they are not like being sworn in in a courtroom or a contract, each of which makes one legally responsible to keep his promises.
Vows are similar to contracts, and they may also be enforced like contracts. They may be communally enforced, or a person may fear that gods will enforce them, or it may be that a government calls its contracts vows. The main thing about a vow is that it is recorded and tracked, even if it is not enforced. People do break vows without consequence but not everywhere and not always.
I think that you and I have different conceptions of loyalty. When I think about who and what I am loyal to, "following orders," hierarchies, and vows aren't a part of it. I've never promised loyalty to any of the people (I'm including my dogs here) or things I am loyal to except perhaps with wedding vows, which don't make one loyal nor keep one loyal.

Personal integrity can be thought of as loyalty to one's principles. Love is a form of loyalty in the sense of facilitating the well-being of another. But neither of those need to be spoken nor is there any promise made that needs to be kept. Patriotism is a form of loyalty. There may be a loyalty Pledge, but those are just words, not a binding promise.

Cheating on taxes is a form of disloyalty. I saw the unwillingness to cooperate during the pandemic as a form of disloyalty. One is criminal and the other not, but it's not the criminality of tax evasion that makes it disloyalty. It's the fact that it harms one's own society. One is being disloyal to his neighbors who do pay their taxes, which would be true even were there no penalty.
I understand what you're saying. This is enlightenment period reasoning wherein we each become responsible for our own choices. It runs contrary to trust in an elite who make decisions for us, such as priests, intellectuals etc. Loyalty is how you describe your allegiances. I don't necessarily disagree.

It sounds workable for many situations in modern times, though it might get us massacred. Someone living in Russia or China has to choose between health and loyalty to themselves, to what they think; because they are under pressure to comply mentally or at least verbally. To a lesser extent that is true everywhere. There is a ticket to ride the train.
I don't think you mean that. No elected official is compelled to compromise his or her morality. Maybe you meant give away a little autonomy.
Many officials are not elected such as commissioned officers.

An elected official in my country and yours can step down instead of following an order, or they can refuse and get disciplined for it. Many officials in various countries are not so free and are appointed.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It seems to me that loyalty can only be ethical within a group or within a system of groups of people. It could be said that hierarchies of control depend upon loyalty. Even so loyalty may call upon a person to betray someone or some people or to harm themselves.

Vows are like contracts with the gods or God or government as guarantor. Vows also are commitments: moments in which a person decides they will make something happen. A person can also vow to obey unforeseeable commands. This is what taking public office means. You give away your morality for someone else's.

Following orders means doing what you are told without thinking about it. This requires brainwashing.

Are the above things healthy? Are they necessary? Are they supportable in a moral person: a person who believes in making moral decisions?

*** To whoever participates: I expect a range of answers and no simple one size fits all solution. By the way I am not skilled in ethics or philosophy, so please forgive that.
I've never said the Pledge Of Allegiance, even as a
whippersnapper in grade school.
All this "under God" **** seemed stupid & offensive.
That was the start of hating loyalty oaths. **** those!
I follow a code, but I'm not loyal to a country, especially
one led by genocidal religious bigots.
For the unfamiliar, I am very not a patriot.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I've never said the Pledge Of Allegiance, even as a
whippersnapper in grade school.
All this "under God" **** seemed stupid & offensive.
That was the start of hating loyalty oaths. **** those!
I follow a code, but I'm not loyal to a country, especially
one led by genocidal religious bigots.
For the unfamiliar, I am very not a patriot.
Its all your fault if Biden doesn't get re-elected.

What do you think about systems of loyalty? Are they better than some things that are worse?
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Loyalty to useful ideals is good.
Loyalty to people can go very bad, eg, loyalty to
Trump superseding loyalty to constitutional law.
I understand what you're saying. I note that your statement treats ideals as if they are people. Personification is a human tendency as is dehumanization.

What if Trump is disloyal to the constitution but his party is so hung up on certain important issues (such as loyalty to their constituents) that they ignore it? They are exhibiting loyalty to their ideals. That makes it loyalty versus loyalty.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I understand what you're saying. I note that your statement treats ideals as if they are people.
Nay, ideals are immutable.
People are not....they can change ideals,
& even subvert their own ideals ad hoc.
I value liberty & justice. Politicians might
also value them at times, but as we observe,
this is a transient state for them.
What if Trump is disloyal to the constitution but his party is so hung up on certain important issues (such as loyalty to their constituents) that they ignore it? They are exhibiting loyalty to their ideals. That makes it loyalty versus loyalty.
Instead of addressing your potentially slippery
hypothetical, I'll respond simply....
Trump is anti-justice, anti-peace, & anti-erudition.
Loyalty to him is to oppose things I value.
 
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