Luciferianism and mormonism....

[porkchop]

Halcyon is right. Luciferianism is closer to Gnosticism than LDS. However, Luciferianism in some ways is closer to LDS than other Christian denominations so I'm not surprised that people have noticed a connection. I would say the number one similarity between the LDS and Luciferianism is that both are frequently misunderstood.

I do want to make clear one thing. When I say that I appreciate the LDS perspective and like some of their doctrines, it does not necessarily mean that I agree with them or believe them. It just means that I think they are sound beliefs to have.

I'd like to speak frankly about this. None of this is meant to offend anyone, but in order to explain my beliefs, I will have to say things about God that will make Christians uncomfortable. Of course on the flip side, Christians say things about Lucifer that make me uncomfortable all the time so I'm assuming this won't be a problem. I'll wait for confirmation on that before I go on though.

I dont mind you stating your beliefs, Danisty, as part of the thread, i expected to hear about luciferian beliefs, so thats ok.

 

[porkchop]

I wouldn't mind seeing this thread moved to the Comparative Religions forum. Meanwhile, I'll explain the LDS view of the Fall of Adam and the role of Satan in this event. Then perhaps Danisty can explain the Luciferian perspective and we can see how similar they really are.

It is true that the Latter-day Saints view Adam's transgression and resulting fall from grace as an essential part of God's plan. When they were in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve lived a life of blissful ignorance. They knew no evil and could consequently not recognize the good that surrounded them. They were never sick or in pain; consequently, while they were always strong and healthy, they were unable to fully appreciate this fact. They were never unhappy but, without having ever experienced sorrow, they were unable to know true joy. God did not want them to remain in this state forever. He wanted them to understand the fact that everything has its opposite -- good and evil, light and darkness, virtue and vice, knowledge and ignorance, pleasure and pain. The only way this could happen would be for them to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Because God had placed them in the Garden in a state of purity and innocence, they would likely have never thought to disobey the commandment He gave them not to eat of the fruit from that one tree. Consequently, God permitted Satan (whom the Latter-day Saints believe to be the pre-mortal Lucifer, he who was cast out of God's presence for rebellion) to tempt them. He knew that, sooner or later, they would give in, but that in spite of the fact that He would have to force them to leave the Garden, they would be better off in the long run. They would be in a position to actually learn the difference between good and evil and make a choice between them. That would be the only way they could progress. We do see Eve as the heroine of this story and we make no apology for it. We see Satan as God's and our enemy and believe that he tried to thwart God's plan. The fact that God permitted this, however, is significant. It's something that doesn't seem to even cross the minds of most Christians.

Hey Katzpur, have you seen the thread "original sin"? I wouldnt mind discussing this post of yours with you but it might be off topic on this thread, wondered if you were gonna go on that one. If not, im sure we will meet again for discussion and debate!!

 

[Ðanisty]

If you want to go with the God the father analogy (which is actually something I prefer because it makes things easier to explain), Luciferians would see God as an abusive father. In our view, Lucifer (as the serpent) stepped in and basically rescued us from God. We see the Garden of Eden as a prison so naturally we feel that we were liberated by this act.

 

[Ðanisty]

I moved this thread to Comparative Religion because porkchop PMed me and said that would be okay...just so you guys know. It wasn't a biased thing.

 

[porkchop]

If you want to go with the God the father analogy (which is actually something I prefer because it makes things easier to explain), Luciferians would see God as an abusive father. In our view, Lucifer (as the serpent) stepped in and basically rescued us from God. We see the Garden of Eden as a prison so naturally we feel that we were liberated by this act.

Ok, im certain mormons dont view God as abusive, but with regards to the bit about seeing the garden of eden as a prison, are there any mormons who would say they thought the same, cause they wanted Adam and Eve to get out of there so they could progress. What would luciferians say about the reason for them coming out of the garden, was that to progress, too?

 

[Ðanisty]

Ok, im certain mormons dont view God as abusive, but with regards to the bit about seeing the garden of eden as a prison, are there any mormons who would say they thought the same, cause they wanted Adam and Eve to get out of there so they could progress. What would luciferians say about the reason for them coming out of the garden, was that to progress, too?

I don't think any LDS are going to agree that Eden was a prison. As far as leaving the Garden, that's when we were really able to discover who we were.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

If you want to go with the God the father analogy (which is actually something I prefer because it makes things easier to explain), Luciferians would see God as an abusive father. In our view, Lucifer (as the serpent) stepped in and basically rescued us from God. We see the Garden of Eden as a prison so naturally we feel that we were liberated by this act.

Ok now Im confused.... unless I am not understanding the story of adam and eve correctly. I thought you said lucifer wasnt satan? but satan was the serpent, which would suggest that lucifer is satan?

 

[Ðanisty]

Ok now Im confused.... unless I am not understanding the story of adam and eve correctly. I thought you said lucifer wasnt satan? but satan was the serpent, which would suggest that lucifer is satan?

I don't believe that the serpent represents Satan.

 

[jonny]

Ok, im certain mormons dont view God as abusive, but with regards to the bit about seeing the garden of eden as a prison, are there any mormons who would say they thought the same, cause they wanted Adam and Eve to get out of there so they could progress. What would luciferians say about the reason for them coming out of the garden, was that to progress, too?

I have never heard the garden of eden described as a prison in Mormonism. The ultimate goal is to return to a place like the garden, but in a state of mind that is not ignorant.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I have never heard the garden of eden described as a prison in Mormonism. The ultimate goal is to return to a place like the garden, but in a state of mind that is not ignorant.

The garden couldnt have been a prison. The door was left open all the time ie the tree. God knew that they would eventually partake of the fruit.

 

[Ðanisty]

The garden couldnt have been a prison. The door was left open all the time ie the tree. God knew that they would eventually partake of the fruit.

I assume you mean from an LDS perspective.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I assume you mean from an LDS perspective.

Well yes... but really any prespective. We all agree that the tree was there... though the reasons behind it may differ. The tree was their way to knowledge (I think we all agree that the tree gave them knowledge, being ashamed of their nakedness etc etc)... so the door was always open.

 

[Ðanisty]

Well yes... but really any prespective. We all agree that the tree was there... though the reasons behind it may differ. The tree was their way to knowledge (I think we all agree that the tree gave them knowledge, being ashamed of their nakedness etc etc)... so the door was always open.

Not exactly. I would say the door was there but it was closed.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Not exactly. I would say the door was there but it was closed.

Ok, why do you say that?

 

[Ðanisty]

Ok, why do you say that?

Why wouldn't I say that? Was there any indication that Adam and Eve were going to partake of the fruit without a little nudge?

 

[Katzpur]

Hey Katzpur, have you seen the thread "original sin"? I wouldnt mind discussing this post of yours with you but it might be off topic on this thread, wondered if you were gonna go on that one. If not, im sure we will meet again for discussion and debate!!

I've seen it and I'm pretty sure I posted on it, but I lose track sometimes. I'll go back and look at it and we can continue to discuss this topic there, if you'd like.

 

[Katzpur]

Ok, im certain mormons dont view God as abusive, but with regards to the bit about seeing the garden of eden as a prison, are there any mormons who would say they thought the same, cause they wanted Adam and Eve to get out of there so they could progress. What would luciferians say about the reason for them coming out of the garden, was that to progress, too?

I've actually never heard the question posed before. Since Adam and Eve were in constant contact with God when they were in the Garden, and since they knew nothing but pleasure, I can't imagine how it could be said to be a prison. We do believe that their potential was limited in the Garden, though, since we as human beings are clearly strengthened by trials and can only progress when given challenges to overcome. It would definitely be safe to say that we view Adam and Eve in a much more positive light than do most Christians. It would also be safe to say that we do not see Satan as the hero here, but the villain.

 

[Katzpur]

Why wouldn't I say that? Was there any indication that Adam and Eve were going to partake of the fruit without a little nudge?

You've got a good point, and I have discussed this with Victor in some depth. If God is omniscient, He would have known what to expect from Adam and Eve. He wouldn't have allowed Satan to tempt them without knowing what would happen. If He had really wanted them to remain forever as they were when He placed them in the Garden, you've got to wonder why He set things up the way He did. Surely He wasn't so naive as to think they wouldn't fall for the Satan's sales pitch on how they could become gods.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Interesting Thread...

I see striking resemblance and similarities with Mormonism and Islam. Consider the revelation accounts of both prophet Mohammad and prophet Joesph Smith. Conisder their lower view of Jesus Christ as compared to orthodox Christians.

Muslims do not believe Jesus is loever then Muhammed and the only similarity is they have their book and we have ours. Please try not to speak on our behalf about our beliefs on Jesus when you seem to not know what we think of him.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Muslims do not believe Jesus is loever then Muhammed and the only similarity is they have their book and we have ours. Please try not to speak on our behalf about our beliefs on Jesus when you seem to not know what we think of him.

I think what he was trying to say is you have a lower view of Jesus compared to how Orthodox Christians view Jesus i.e you do not believe he is the Son of God. You think he was a messenger. That is lower than being the son of God. I dont think he was saying that you have a lower view of Jesus compared to Muhammed.

Edit: How come this thread went to between mormonism and Islam? It supposed to be luciferism and Mormons