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Main Stream Media Dying....Independent Media is the Future

Moonjuice

In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
@Moonjuice
How is Youtube not part of the Mainstream Media? Literal millions consume its content every day.
I suppose you are right in the sense that YouTube is certainly mainstream. But when people refer to mainstream media in the U.S., they are usually referring to the popular TV News outlets that have dominated for many years. CNN, FOX NEWS, MSNBC, Etc. I think they are referring to "independent" as any news outlet that is not corporate owned. These independent outlets are podcasts, not television productions, that can (but don't need to) use YouTube. Joe Rogan's deal with Spotify proved that (part of the deal is he can't post his podcasts on Youtube in their entirety, only small clips). As a podcast, they do not have anyone censoring what they say. They do not have to pander to advertisers or politicians. They can survive with a small paid audience that supports them directly. Also, BTW, just because someone is independent, doesn't mean they are not completely full of S*&%. That being said, YouTube is mainstream for sure and they certainly do censor people.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
I suppose you are right in the sense that YouTube is certainly mainstream. But when people refer to mainstream media in the U.S., they are usually referring to the popular TV News outlets that have dominated for many years. CNN, FOX NEWS, MSNBC, Etc. I think they are referring to "independent" as any news outlet that is not corporate owned. These independent outlets are podcasts, not television productions, that can (but don't need to) use YouTube. Joe Rogan's deal with Spotify proved that (part of the deal is he can't post his podcasts on Youtube in their entirety, only small clips). As a podcast, they do not have anyone censoring what they say. They do not have to pander to advertisers or politicians. They can survive with a small paid audience that supports them directly. Also, BTW, just because someone is independent, doesn't mean they are not completely full of S*&%. That being said, YouTube is mainstream for sure and they certainly do censor people.
Youtube's revenue model does indeed significantly disadvantage small, independent channels as well as content Youtube's management deems "controversial" such as any nonfictional content related to homosexuality or same-sex relationships, transgender content, strong language, imagery of graphic violence of the kind one would see in a historical documentary, and of course radical leftist politics.

Of course, calling them "independent" channels is a complete misnomer in the first place - many of these creators depend on Youtube for their audience and - both directly and indirectly - much of their revenue. Note that this dependency tends to hit those creators the hardest who actually go the extra mile and produce high quality audiovisual content such as nonfiction documentaries, and so have a rather limited selection in platforms to choose from. Of course, pod cast series - especially those like Rogan's which require zero research and minimal effort - have a much wider potential way to seek audiences independently of a single platform. Rogan himself, of course, is no less "mainstream" than many other radio show hosts with a similarly-sized audience, neither in his content nor the audience he tends to attract.

The overwhelming number of these shows are, by the way, sponsored to some degree or another - claiming that they would not have to "pander to advertisers" is just factually wrong, and also belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the economics of producing media content. "Content production", whether it is mindless clickbait or high quality journalistic work, is an economic activity like any other, and such has to pay for itself - or ideally, generate a profit; at the very least, creators have to be able to financially maintain themselves to the degree that they can for their studio and/or recording equipment, pre and post production, professional staff, and in many cases, also guest appearances, and in the case of journalistic content, even the occasional legal protection.

In other words, somebody gotta pay for all this. That's where all the sponsorship deals, ad revenue, and wide ranging corporate influence tends to come in. And most content creators on online platforms tend to be just as dependent on these income channels as - or in some cases, arguably moreso than - the vaunted "MSM".


*) Sidestepping, for a moment, that all Western free speech legislation operates under the liberal-capitalist conception of censorship, where the government interferes in otherwise "natural" capitalist control over media content
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Youtube's revenue model does indeed significantly disadvantage small, independent channels as well as content Youtube's management deems "controversial" such as any nonfictional content related to homosexuality or same-sex relationships, transgender content, strong language, imagery of graphic violence of the kind one would see in a historical documentary, and of course radical leftist politics.
Since when, in regards to the bold? I have certainly not seen this. LGBT and far-left stuff are all over that site. It was the far-right that got the banhammer.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Since when, in regards to the bold? I have certainly not seen this. LGBT and far-left stuff are all over that site. It was the far-right that got the banhammer.
Content which YT considers "sexual" is demonetized, and demonetized content is de-emphasized by Youtube's recommendation and search algorithms.

As for your allegiations of far right censorship, I will point you to the fact that Youtube had banned hate speech as part of its Terms of Service for a rather long time, they had simply refused to execute those TOS in a manner that would have disandvantaged popular Neofascist creators for most of the platform's existence until 2019/20.

EDIT: I will also note that many of the most enduringly popular right-wing extremist channels (Sargon of Akkad, Stefan Molyneux, Lauren Southern etc.) still host videos and maintain a sizable audience on that platform, so right wing extremism "getting the banhammer" is somewhat of an overstatement.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Content which YT considers "sexual" is demonetized, and demonetized content is de-emphasized by Youtube's recommendation and search algorithms.

As for your allegiations of far right censorship, I will point you to the fact that Youtube had banned hate speech as part of its Terms of Service for a rather long time, they had simply refused to execute those TOS in a manner that would have disandvantaged popular Neofascist creators for most of the platform's existence until 2019/20.
When it comes to demonetization, you have a point. Too bad they don't demonetize all those useless toxic "influencers". YouTube was better before the Borg (Google) bought it.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
When it comes to demonetization, you have a point. Too bad they don't demonetize all those useless toxic "influencers". YouTube was better before the Borg (Google) bought it.
Youtube was hemorrhaging money when Google bought it and was not a profitable platform at all. I would argue that the increased corporatization of the platform is a direct result of trying to plug that money leak and turn Youtube into a profitable venture in its own right (or alternatively, as an adjacent service to leech data profiles for Google to increase the latter's viability as an ad platform).
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Youtube was hemorrhaging money when Google bought it and was not a profitable platform at all. I would argue that the increased corporatization of the platform is a direct result of trying to plug that money leak and turn Youtube into a profitable platform in its own right (or alternatively, as an adjacent service to leech data profiles for Google to increase the latter's viability as an ad platform).
I really don't care about their financial reasons for buying it. Of course Google wants to make money.
 

averageJOE

zombie
I get my information from CNN. If they say something I need to research, I do so by switching over to MSNBC. If they repeat it, I know it's true. I don't watch Fox because their headquarters is in Russia.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
As a podcast, they do not have anyone censoring what they say. They do not have to pander to advertisers or politicians.

They can survive with a small paid audience that supports them directly.

If they make money on a direct correlation to the number of members of their audience, it seems they will do best by pandering to a specific audience segment. Q of QAnon fame panders. Are you suggesting that the stuff posted by QAnon is more accurate than the contents of the NBC/CBS/ABC Evening News?
 

Moonjuice

In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
Of course, calling them "independent" channels is a complete misnomer in the first place - many of these creators depend on Youtube for their audience and - both directly and indirectly - much of their revenue.
I specifically was referring to independent news podcasts, who are making their money by charging a fee. Youtube certainly isn't required here, though its definitely a source of some income for those who also use Youtube as a way to promote their paid podcasts. I said "They can survive with a small paid audience that supports them directly." This is how Breaking Points (as they described it) are able to be 100% independent.

Rogan, on the other hand, has proven you can take advertising dollars without pandering to the advertiser, if you have an audience large enough and devoted enough. He says he selects products he likes and uses only, completely believable if you ever listen to the ads. This is obviously not true with 100% of MSM. There are enough advertisers lining up for him that he has the luxury to be selective. For the rest, especially those who use YouTube alone or as their primary income driver, I agree with you.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I get my information from CNN. If they say something I need to research, I do so by switching over to MSNBC. If they repeat it, I know it's true. I don't watch Fox because their headquarters is in Russia.
I personally find CNN and MSNBC to be insufferable at this point. I used to watch CNN until they became a 24/7 anti-Trump hatefest and basically a political clone of MSNBC.

I am not aware of Fox News being headquartered in Russia.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Rogan, on the other hand, has proven you can take advertising dollars without pandering to the advertiser, if you have an audience large enough and devoted enough. He says he selects products he likes and uses only, completely believable if you ever listen to the ads.
Rogan performs for an audience when he says this (and has a long history of talking nonsense and spreading misleading claims and outright fabrications alike), so I would be extremely reluctant to take anything he says at face value.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Rogan performs for an audience when he says this (and has a long history of talking nonsense and spreading misleading claims and outright fabrications alike), so I would be extremely reluctant to take anything he says at face value.
He is definitely an entertainer, not a journalist.
 

Moonjuice

In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
Are you suggesting that the stuff posted by QAnon is more accurate than the contents of the NBC/CBS/ABC Evening News?
Good grief. I specifically added "BTW, just because someone is independent, doesn't mean they are not completely full of S*&%". I realize, of course, that the independence of the format, doesn't instantly lead to truth. It removes the built in aspect of MSM that puts profits above honesty, as do the vast majority of large American businesses for that matter. According to these independent podcasters, its the reason MSM is losing audiences at alarming rates in favor of independent options. BTW, both of these hosts on the specific channel I was referring to are former white house correspondents and MSNBC reporters. They are uniquely qualified to tell the audience what its like working for MSM vs. being independent, how they were censored, what they are forced to discuss in chase of ratings and ad dollars, vs. what they think are the most important topics to discuss. At least being independent, you have a chance to tell it exactly as you see it. You wont find out how full of crap CNN is, unless you watch FOX. You need CNN to remind you about how full of crap FOX is. Independent media is saying...they are all full of crap. I'm convinced.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Good grief. I specifically added "BTW, just because someone is independent, doesn't mean they are not completely full of S*&%". I realize, of course, that the independence of the format, doesn't instantly lead to truth. It removes the built in aspect of MSM that puts profits above honesty, as do the vast majority of large American businesses for that matter.
I would strongly argue that it really does not.

There is nothing that makes "independent" content (that is, content that is either ignorant of, or actively masks its economic incentives behind self marketing) inherently less dependent on revenue streams - if anything, its presentation may even serve to make these revenue streams even less transparent than MSM who are at least theoretically required to disclose certain corporate structures.
 

Moonjuice

In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
I would strongly argue that it really does not.

There is nothing that makes "independent" content (that is, content that is either ignorant of, or actively masks its economic incentives behind self marketing) inherently less dependent on revenue streams - if anything, its presentation may even serve to make these revenue streams even less transparent than MSM who are at least theoretically required to disclose certain corporate structures.
Gotcha, we are just going to have to agree to disagree here. If you are in control of your content, not a corporation, you do not have to answer to anyone other than the people paying for a subscription. On Breaking Points, Saggar tells a story about a congresswoman contacting the Hill, who they used to work for with their show called "The Rising". The purpose of the call was to ensure a particular discussion did not happen. This is an excellent example MSM's control over content. This can't and won't happen now that they have gone independent with a subscription model. Best part is, when you do not have to pander to a particular political party, or advertisers, or corporate sponsors, or congressmen, you can just deliver facts and discuss it. Be dishonest, eventually it will catch up to you. If you are honest about your presentation of the facts, people will appreciate it. Hence Breaking Points already becoming the top political podcast (on Apple and Spotify) in a matter of months. This is a snip from the latest from Breaking Points about MSM vs. Independent media:
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
There was a Youtuber who had his channel repeatedly taken down because he kept posting material critical of the CIA. For some reason, his content just so happened to be frequently flagged as misinformation or hate speech, and Youtube, of course, dutifully took it down, because how could they not.

I'll try to see if I can still find something to back up that story somehow.
 

Moonjuice

In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
There was a Youtuber who had his channel repeatedly taken down because he kept posting material critical of the CIA. For some reason, his content just so happened to be frequently flagged as misinformation or hate speech, and Youtube, of course, dutifully took it down, because how could they not.

I'll try to see if I can still find something to back up that story somehow.
Just listened to a recent Rogan podcast with Eric Weinstein and a Dr. who testified before the Senate. They were discussing their podcast that had been removed by Youtube because of "medical misinformation". This is doctor discussing scientific studies. He supports using a non-patented drug that is basically free (costs about $1 per dose) to treat Covid, rather than the billions that are being made from private companies that the government is supporting. The government literally has provisions for those private companies, who are making a killing, so that they wont be held liable for anything. If you even discuss the efficacy of using alternative drugs that aren't going to be profitable for anyone, you get censored.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
According to these independent podcasters, its the reason MSM is losing audiences at alarming rates in favor of independent options.

So, the podcasters are saying that the MSM is losing to the audience to the podcasters.

Nevertheless, the more outlets there are the more people eating at the pie. There was a time ABC, NBC and CBS had all the viewers. Then along came CNN, Fox, NBC News, and youtube streamers and podcasters. None of that means that the Youtubers and podcasters are any better at presenting actual events. The larger groups will always have more and better rescources.

BTW, both of these hosts on the specific channel I was referring to are former white house correspondents and MSNBC reporters. They are uniquely qualified to tell the audience what its like working for MSM vs. being independent, how they were censored, what they are forced to discuss in chase of ratings and ad dollars, vs. what they think are the most important topics to discuss.

Your podcasters are also chasing the dollars. Don't think for a minute they aren't.

At least being independent, you have a chance to tell it exactly as you see it.

And how do they see it? Do they go to Trump rallies and listen to what he has to say? Do they go to New York and see what the District Attorney is doing regarding Guilina and Trump. Where and how do they get their information?



You wont find out how full of crap CNN is, unless you watch FOX. You need CNN to remind you about how full of crap FOX is.

Nonsense. I can watch a Trump rally and see how full of crap he is. I can tune to Fox kissing his *** and perpetuating his lies to know how full of crap they are.
 
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