Major Scottish parties adopt controversial definition of Islamophobia

[LuisDantas]

We need only figure out which Muslims are "true" Muslims,
& put only their mullahs to sit in judgment of the offenders.

Yeah, that would certainly solve everything.

It always did, didn't it?

 

[LuisDantas]

Isn't that the point, though?

Surely what this definition means is that Islamophobia is NOT criticism of the religion of Islam but is, rather, a particular subset of racism (against Arabs and brown-skinned peoples from the Indian sub-continent), that is expressed as hostility to symbols and signs of muslim faith. If that is what is meant then I think it is rather a good definition.

In what sense is it a good definition?

And more specifically, what purpose would it serve that plain exposition of racism would somehow not be as good for?

 

[exchemist]

In what sense is it a good definition?

And more specifically, what purpose would it serve that plain exposition of racism would somehow not be as good for?

I've tried to explain. Racism works by latching on something about a person's appearance and applying an unflattering series of prejudices to them on the basis of how they look. Usually that is their skin colour, but it can - in this case - also be their beard or hijab.

 

[Shad]

The main political parties in Scotland have almost uniformly adopted a definition of Islamophobia agreed upon by the Westminster 'All Party Parliamentary Group on British Muslims' after years of consideration.

The definition is as follows:

"Islamophobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness."

So... just criticize Islam when near a Muslim that is the same race as you or is white. Problem solved. /s

Typical PC tripe.

 

[sun rise]

The definition specifically uses the word “racism” twice. It doesn’t say you can’t be critical. It says you can’t target Muslims based on rooted racism.

That's the key point. They should have used a different word than "racism" but it still works.

By rights, "Islamophobia" should not even be a matter of legal concern. It is an extremely biased and misguided concept to begin with.

By extension, you are arguing thusly:

By rights, "anti-Semitism" should not even be a matter of legal concern. It is an extremely biased and misguided concept to begin with.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

The main political parties in Scotland have almost uniformly adopted a definition of Islamophobia agreed upon by the Westminster 'All Party Parliamentary Group on British Muslims' after years of consideration.

The definition is as follows:

"Islamophobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness."

This definition has been adopted by the Scottish Conservatives, Scottish Labour, Scottish Liberal Democrats and, I'm sorry (but not surprised) to say, the Scottish Greens - my own party. The Scottish Government is considering formally adopting the definition but has not, to my knowledge, done so yet. Thus the tweet publicising this is not entirely accurate.

British Muslims on Twitter

I'm deeply disappointed and have strong reservations about this. In my opinion, the definition is far too broad, and leaves no room for distinction between legitimate criticism of Islam & aspects of Islam, and tangible incidents of prejudice against Muslims for being Muslim.

This effectively silences groups such as ex-Muslims for whom questioning, criticism or opposing certain Quranic tenets & expressions of Muslims may be a crucial part of healing from any abuse or ill treatment they suffered from Muslims as a result of leaving the faith - as well as those of us for whom the rising influence of Islam & Islamism is a legitimate concern.

In my opinion this, if legislated, will amount to a blasphemy law shielding one religion in particular from any & all criticism in the name of a far more noble goal: stopping its adherents from being subject to prejudiced attacks. And the thing there are actually laws in place that are used to prevent this or punish instances where it does happen. ****ing hell, a man & woman in Edinburgh were jailed for 12 months & 9 months respectively for putting bacon strips on a mosque's door handles. It's not like there aren't laws against this sort of thing already.

I appreciate that it does not yet carry legal force, but the fact almost all major parties in Scotland have adopted it is deeply troubling. The fact that parties are even adopting such a poorly-worded definition is bad enough.

Groups such as Humanists UK have expressed their concern, and I'm sure the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain will release something shortly condemning this. I would not be surprised if it has not already done so and I've simply missed it.

EDIT: Here is a more detailed briefing from Humanists UK explaining their concerns about this.

I also have problems with the definition. There is I think little doubt that at least some Islamophobia is rooted in racism, but to say or at any rate imply that all Islamophobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism is in my opinion just plain wrong. I (as admittedly just one Muslim) for one have no problem with criticism of Islam.

 

[LuisDantas]

That's the key point. They should have used a different word than "racism" but it still works.



By extension, you are arguing thusly:

By rights, "anti-Semitism" should not even be a matter of legal concern. It is an extremely biased and misguided concept to begin with.

Actually, yes.

 

[Notanumber]

The writing has been on the wall for some time now.

Voltaire said, "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

 

[Altfish]

The writing has been on the wall for some time now.

Voltaire said, "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

I thought all our laws came from the EU - that's what you have been telling us.

 

[Notanumber]

I thought all our laws came from the EU - that's what you have been telling us.

And your point is?

 

[Altfish]

And your point is?

We can and do make our own laws.Despite what the Brexiteers Project Fear said.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

@Altfish , @Notanumber

Please take it to a Brexit thread guys. I'd rather not have my thread derailed if possible, thank you.

Also, NAN, if you don't start putting your videos behind spoilers on my thread I'll be reporting each and every one. You've got the tendency to overburden a single page with videos to the point where it can't load properly or quickly.

 

[Altfish]

@Altfish , @Notanumber

Please take it to a Brexit thread guys. I'd rather not have my thread derailed if possible, thank you.
.

Sorry, I didn't even notice which thread it was in.

 

[England my lionheart]

The main political parties in Scotland have almost uniformly adopted a definition of Islamophobia agreed upon by the Westminster 'All Party Parliamentary Group on British Muslims' after years of consideration.

The definition is as follows:

"Islamophobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness."

This definition has been adopted by the Scottish Conservatives, Scottish Labour, Scottish Liberal Democrats and, I'm sorry (but not surprised) to say, the Scottish Greens - my own party. The Scottish Government is considering formally adopting the definition but has not, to my knowledge, done so yet. Thus the tweet publicising this is not entirely accurate.

British Muslims on Twitter

I'm deeply disappointed and have strong reservations about this. In my opinion, the definition is far too broad, and leaves no room for distinction between legitimate criticism of Islam & aspects of Islam, and tangible incidents of prejudice against Muslims for being Muslim.

This effectively silences groups such as ex-Muslims for whom questioning, criticism or opposing certain Quranic tenets & expressions of Muslims may be a crucial part of healing from any abuse or ill treatment they suffered from Muslims as a result of leaving the faith - as well as those of us for whom the rising influence of Islam & Islamism is a legitimate concern.

In my opinion this, if legislated, will amount to a blasphemy law shielding one religion in particular from any & all criticism in the name of a far more noble goal: stopping its adherents from being subject to prejudiced attacks. And the thing there are actually laws in place that are used to prevent this or punish instances where it does happen. ****ing hell, a man & woman in Edinburgh were jailed for 12 months & 9 months respectively for putting bacon strips on a mosque's door handles. It's not like there aren't laws against this sort of thing already.

I appreciate that it does not yet carry legal force, but the fact almost all major parties in Scotland have adopted it is deeply troubling. The fact that parties are even adopting such a poorly-worded definition is bad enough.

Groups such as Humanists UK have expressed their concern, and I'm sure the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain will release something shortly condemning this. I would not be surprised if it has not already done so and I've simply missed it.

EDIT: Here is a more detailed briefing from Humanists UK explaining their concerns about this.

PC gone haywire,ridiculous that they are adopting this.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The definition specifically uses the word “racism” twice. It doesn’t say you can’t be critical. It says you can’t target Muslims based on rooted racism.

I've tried to explain. Racism works by latching on something about a person's appearance and applying an unflattering series of prejudices to them on the basis of how they look. Usually that is their skin colour, but it can - in this case - also be their beard or hijab.

Here's the thing though, the way the definition is worded is too open ended.

"a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness."

What's an expression of Muslimness? Whatever the victim decides, I guess. That could be anything. It could be the fact someone dresses like a Muslim, or speaks Arabic, or goes to a mosque. But it might be nothing to do with none of these; it could be to do with how someone practices Islam. Be that whether they give to charity, or help the homeless, or shun their family member for apostatising or being gay, or trick their daughter into a forced marriage, or how mosque entrances and Muslims schools tend to be segregated by gender; or the terrible ways in which Islam translates into the political sphere. So Islamophobia doesn't just cover attacks on the physical; it now potentially covers criticisms no matter how valid.

So ex-Muslims who've been put through hell by their family & friends because they dared to leave the faith risk being called 'Islamophobes' for calling out the fact the religion influenced these people to treat them like ****.

And people like me now run the risk of being labelled the same because I, a polytheist, am not particularly enthused by the spreading influence of a religion that is so antithetical to my own beliefs.

 

[Notanumber]

Also, NAN, if you don't start putting your videos behind spoilers on my thread I'll be reporting each and every one.

Please site the forum rule that states that a link to a video must be placed in a spoiler.

 

[Altfish]

Please site the forum rule that states that a link to a video must be placed in a spoiler.

EU Directive 483/2018

 

[Notanumber]

EU Directive 483/2018

I would not be surprised.

The EU would support anything that suppresses any form of free speech.

 

[Altfish]

I would not be surprised.

The EU would support anything that suppresses any form of free speech.

No suppression at all, asking you politely to do it in a way that doesn't clog up the site.

 

[Audie]

Muslims aren't confused about what a terrorist is... They hate and fear them with cause.

So the muslim terrorists hate and fear themselves.