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Majority of Republicans want universal healthcare.

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Not without price controls/collective bargaining. The reason the ACA was and is such a failure is because of how much it cost to cover people who we know are sick, and then trying to spread that cost to others.
Government backed single payer without price controls would be idiotic. Price regulation would go without saying.
You mean the democrats' "regulation" that required you to get insurance from a corporation and add to its profits? That one? Was anti-corporation?

Democrats and Republicans fill corporate bank accounts from different avenues, but they do it all the same. Were it otherwise they would have negative economic and investment growth, but that isn't what happens.
Obamacare was meant to work within our current for-profit insurance framework that Republicans defend tooth and nail. It was meant to be a modest reform— to be palatable to Republicans— rather than the paradigm shift supported by most democrats.

The idea of the individual mandate was to offset the extra expense to insurance agencies caused by the increased regulation, which forced coverage of pre-existing conditions and ensured that every plan included a basic set coverage.

You can argue that insurance companies benefited, but I think that would be a hard argument to make. It is well documented that some went out of business because they could no longer make ends meet.

And it is still drawing a false equivalency between a possible small benefit to insurance companies, based in a law clearly meant to aid consumers, in contrast to Republicans who do not want any regulation whatsoever on these companies.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
It's called being "being objective" and looking at both sides with an untainted, unbiased eye. If you can't see that, then I'm sorry, but there's no call for this kind of talk.
You are not being objective. Claiming “both sides are the same” does not magically bestow objectivism, especially when it’s so easily shown to be untrue. I clearly outlined the errors in your claim. Feel free to debunk.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I believe the “kochtopus network” spends more on politics than the Democratic Party could ever dream of.

If I could recommend a book:
Dark Money” by Jane Mayer. For anyone who wants to understand what has happened and is happening to to U.S. politics.
I see the Kochs as a more positive influence on politics than the DNC.
So if the former is to be silenced, then so should the latter.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You're oversimplifying.
No, the claim that corporations control all outcomes inexorably leads
to the conclusion that one's vote matters not. To reject that view is
indeed simple, as is the obvious conclusion that voting is worthwhile.
And it recently worked to keep Hillary out of office. The corporations
running news media & polls tried & failed to discourage Trump voters.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You are conflating how people vote for what they want.
To use the word, "conflate", you need 2 different items.
You have only one there, Rover.
[QUOkTE]
People are notorious for voting based on tribal identity, how the people around them vote and for other such reasons rather than what they've clearly said they wanted.[/QUOTE]
People nonetheless have power in their vote.
You're only arguing that they use it carelessly.
The power is still there.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Unless you vote by absentee ballot, it takes time.

I usually vote early in the morning, just when the polls open and before I have to get to work. It doesn't take too long.

This last time, there was a bit of a line, but it wasn't that bad. I waited longer to get on Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, but elections are even more fun than that.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I usually vote early in the morning, just when the polls open and before I have to get to work. It doesn't take too long.

This last time, there was a bit of a line, but it wasn't that bad. I waited longer to get on Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, but elections are even more fun than that.
Here we are....you find voting ineffective, yet you travel to polls & wait in line..
I find voting powerful, & I just fill out an absentee ballot without leaving the house.
What a contrast, eh.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No, the claim that corporations control all outcomes inexorably leads
to the conclusion that one's vote matters not. To reject that view is
indeed simple, as is the obvious conclusion that voting is worthwhile.
And it recently worked to keep Hillary out of office. The corporations
running news media & polls tried & failed to discourage Trump voters.

I don't know if there are any actual claims of "total" control by corporations. I don't believe the elections are totally fake, nor do I know anyone who makes such a direct claim. I tend to think that it would be extremely difficult to fake the results of a national election. A local election, possibly - although even then, it would still be pretty hard. I do recall some allegations of computer shenanigans which led to questions about a bond issue that was put before voters several years ago.

The corporations running the news media and polls are largely the same ones who have been howling about how "the Russians did it!" Of course, if the Russians could hack into computers and set up trolls on social media to influence and confuse voters with fake news, then it stands to reason that such is also within the capabilities of any significant corporate body with a large war chest.

This doesn't necessarily entail hacking into voting machines or affecting the vote count that directly. The whole idea is to influence what voters think, which influences how they end up voting. It seems that in the last election, the corporate media already had their minds made up as to how they planned to influence the voters, but somehow the Russians broke into their game - and they've been screaming "foul" about it ever since.

The one thing that's slightly amusing about it all is that they got hoisted by their own petard. They play hardball politics, so it's a matter of he (or she) who lives by dirty tricks ends up dying by dirty tricks.

"Corporate" control might also be a bit of an oversimplification, since we're essentially talking about political factions of which corporations are also part. It may just be a term used for the sake of convenience, since most people who work in corporations are just worker bees trying to do a job.

But when people talk about corporations controlling things, they're most likely referring to those at the upper echelons who ostensibly wield a great deal of political influence and financial power. It seems to refer to some sort of "plutocracy" - some unelected body of movers and shakers who shape policy and use their political capital to ensure that their will gets implemented.

I don't know if that's actually literally true or not. I think many people are referring to it more on a figurative level than a literal one. It does seem pretty self-evident that money is an absolutely essential component to winning elections. Likewise, if a candidate appears to be unfriendly to certain powerful interests, then you can bet that they'll be spending money on a negative campaign against that candidate.

Recently, I've been hearing a lot of commercials slamming one of the candidates for senate (it's the same one I posted in a previous thread), but the commercials are not endorsed or paid for by any of the other candidates. It's pretty obvious where it's coming from and which candidate is behind it, but it's not really anything directly official. It had a very militaristic appeal and was full of fear-mongering, saying that America was in danger and needed to get tough on her enemies.

This is the kind of stuff that gets fed to the public, and it's just going to get worse as we get closer to November. The sad truth of it all is that this tactic really works, especially when it's used cleverly with today's numerous communication technologies and media available.

They don't have to control the elections themselves (although I suppose anything is possible), but all they have to do is have the means and the resources to be able to bombard the public with endless messages supporting or opposing whatever candidate or cause suits them.

Sometimes it doesn't appear to work according to plan. Even dictatorships might have an off day on occasion. No one can really control "everything," and I think that's pretty much implied about corporations, even if some people are prone to overstatement on the matter. I look at it more on a figurative and abstract level than anything that is literally true.

However, one thing is clear is that the top people in corporations have to be politicians of a sort, at least in the sense they have to be elected by the shareholders. They also have to concern themselves with their corporate public image, just as politicians have their own image to worry about.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
I see the Kochs as a more positive influence on politics than the DNC.
So if the former is to be silenced, then so should the latter.
Wow, that's very telling.
I'd assume you are a Tea Party supporter? Given that the Koch's created the movement?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't know if there are any actual claims of "total" control by corporations. I don't believe the elections are totally fake, nor do I know anyone who makes such a direct claim. I tend to think that it would be extremely difficult to fake the results of a national election. A local election, possibly - although even then, it would still be pretty hard. I do recall some allegations of computer shenanigans which led to questions about a bond issue that was put before voters several years ago.

The corporations running the news media and polls are largely the same ones who have been howling about how "the Russians did it!" Of course, if the Russians could hack into computers and set up trolls on social media to influence and confuse voters with fake news, then it stands to reason that such is also within the capabilities of any significant corporate body with a large war chest.

This doesn't necessarily entail hacking into voting machines or affecting the vote count that directly. The whole idea is to influence what voters think, which influences how they end up voting. It seems that in the last election, the corporate media already had their minds made up as to how they planned to influence the voters, but somehow the Russians broke into their game - and they've been screaming "foul" about it ever since.

The one thing that's slightly amusing about it all is that they got hoisted by their own petard. They play hardball politics, so it's a matter of he (or she) who lives by dirty tricks ends up dying by dirty tricks.

"Corporate" control might also be a bit of an oversimplification, since we're essentially talking about political factions of which corporations are also part. It may just be a term used for the sake of convenience, since most people who work in corporations are just worker bees trying to do a job.

But when people talk about corporations controlling things, they're most likely referring to those at the upper echelons who ostensibly wield a great deal of political influence and financial power. It seems to refer to some sort of "plutocracy" - some unelected body of movers and shakers who shape policy and use their political capital to ensure that their will gets implemented.

I don't know if that's actually literally true or not. I think many people are referring to it more on a figurative level than a literal one. It does seem pretty self-evident that money is an absolutely essential component to winning elections. Likewise, if a candidate appears to be unfriendly to certain powerful interests, then you can bet that they'll be spending money on a negative campaign against that candidate.

Recently, I've been hearing a lot of commercials slamming one of the candidates for senate (it's the same one I posted in a previous thread), but the commercials are not endorsed or paid for by any of the other candidates. It's pretty obvious where it's coming from and which candidate is behind it, but it's not really anything directly official. It had a very militaristic appeal and was full of fear-mongering, saying that America was in danger and needed to get tough on her enemies.

This is the kind of stuff that gets fed to the public, and it's just going to get worse as we get closer to November. The sad truth of it all is that this tactic really works, especially when it's used cleverly with today's numerous communication technologies and media available.

They don't have to control the elections themselves (although I suppose anything is possible), but all they have to do is have the means and the resources to be able to bombard the public with endless messages supporting or opposing whatever candidate or cause suits them.

Sometimes it doesn't appear to work according to plan. Even dictatorships might have an off day on occasion. No one can really control "everything," and I think that's pretty much implied about corporations, even if some people are prone to overstatement on the matter. I look at it more on a figurative and abstract level than anything that is literally true.

However, one thing is clear is that the top people in corporations have to be politicians of a sort, at least in the sense they have to be elected by the shareholders. They also have to concern themselves with their corporate public image, just as politicians have their own image to worry about.
I've the (not so) secret to avoiding being unduly influenced.
- Know what policies you want implemented.
- Know what policies you oppose.
- Look at each candidate's record in office. (Past is prologue, you know.)
- Consider each candidate's proposed agenda for office, & determine what is likely to be effected.
- Vote for the candidate who will most likely effect what you want.
- To avoid being manipulated, don't listen to a candidate speak.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Government backed single payer without price controls would be idiotic.
Of course it would, so was mandating insurance policies without price controls; here we sit.

Obamacare was meant to work within our current for-profit insurance framework that Republicans defend tooth and nail.
I'm a big fan of our for-profit system as it was. It is exceedingly good to be able to go get my MRI the day my doctor ordered it, if I got in the office early enough, and to have surgical procedures scheduled within a few days. It worked wonderfully, if you can get it. There was room for improvement in how the lower socioeconomic classes were handled, but, don't mess with something that works well. I'm on medicaid now and I would gladly go back, if it weren't 900+ a month just for one person.

The insurance system is not suitable for pre-existing conditions. It should never have been forcefully altered to handle them. Those conditions and those financially incapable of getting insurance should have a government assistance program, and there are at least two travesties of law with regard to medicine. The first is the outrageous price gouging that goes on in hospitals. If I come in without insurance, I shouldn't be charged 1000s of percents higher prices. (short story, I had major reconstructive ankle surgery some years back. The hospital "charged" ~200,000, the insurance paid ~10,000 and I paid ~2,000. There is no reason on earth if I had come in without insurance for that surgery that I should have been charged 200,000 instead of 12,000) The second is that medical debt can be inherited.

It was meant to be a modest reform— to be palatable to Republicans— rather than the paradigm shift supported by most democrats.
Not a single republican voted for Obamacare and it still passed. You can't blame Republican recalcitrance for the failure, because it didn't matter. Democrats could have put in whatever they as a party wanted and could pass without any concern for Republican views, which is what they did.

The idea of the individual mandate was to offset the extra expense to insurance agencies caused by the increased regulation
It is well documented that some went out of business because they could no longer make ends meet.
Yes, they tried to mandate corporate profits by law. That they failed, at least in some cases, in doing so doesn't absolve them of the attempt.

And it is still drawing a false equivalency between a possible small benefit to insurance companies, based in a law clearly meant to aid consumers
Let's be clear, it was officially meant to aid non-consumers who were barred entry into the insurance market at the expense of consumers who were already in it. It succeeded at that, people barred by the fact they were not buying insurance as much as they were healthcare were allowed into the same pool.

Minor conspiracy, but I suspect it was made to fail, though not so spectacularly nor so quickly, and then be replaced by a democratic congress with single-payer as 'the only other solution'.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You are not being objective. Claiming “both sides are the same” does not magically bestow objectivism, especially when it’s so easily shown to be untrue. I clearly outlined the errors in your claim. Feel free to debunk.

Perhaps I might address it later. However, I do find it rather illogical that you assume that I support Republican policies while I'm obviously heaping scorn on both major parties equally. I don't really support either of them.

Look, if I've offended you personally in any way, I'm sorry. None of what I've wrote is personally directed at you (or if it appears that way, it certainly wasn't intended). I definitely wasn't addressing you or responding to you in post #40, so I was a bit taken aback by your use of expletives and a kind of angry response as if I somehow offended you personally.

As for my view of both political parties, it's not simply based on recent political events, but on a larger picture which looks at how they evolved into their current form. It's not as simple as trotting out a laundry list of certain select issues where Republicans and Democrats might differ. You might also pay attention to the areas where they are remarkably the same.

That doesn't make them exactly the same. Even within political parties, there are internal factions which often disagree and don't always see eye to eye with each other. That's to be expected. That's where "RINOs" and "DINOs" come from, but that's also a load of partisan garbage, since it implies that people have to toe some "party line" rather than have their own opinions or think for themselves.

I was a staunch Democrat for many years. I'm well aware of the arguments that you're stating about the comparisons between the parties, and for a long time, I was a "true believer" myself. I still believe in many of the same things Democrats support, although I take it on a candidate-by-candidate basis. I vote for the individual, not the party.

I seem to recall that George Washington was very critical of the idea of political parties. I think he called it the "spirit of party," and he warned against it. Unfortunately, it seems that political parties are unavoidable and a necessary evil in the political process.

But I think it's worthwhile to consider that political parties should only be considered tools and a means towards achieving a better, more responsible government. When "the party" seems to become an end in and of itself, then I see that as a counterproductive approach. But what seems to be happening is that a lot of people see "the party" as the be-all and end-all, ahead of principles, the people, or the well-being of the country as a whole.

That's what seems wrong here, not merely because it deceives the masses, but also gives them unnecessary points of division. You could easily look at this another way and say that, since both major parties do have much in common, there is room for compromise, negotiation, and reasonable political settlements of their differences. There's no reason for all this political hostility.

It's really no different than the National League and the American League. Sure they're different leagues, but they're playing the same game. If someone wants to root for one or the other, that's their choice, but there's no reason to get that worked up about it.

After all, it's only a game.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I've the (not so) secret to avoiding being unduly influenced.
- Know what policies you want implemented.
- Know what policies you oppose.
- Look at each candidate's record in office. (Past is prologue, you know.)
- Consider each candidate's proposed agenda for office, & determine what is likely to be effected.
- Vote for the candidate who will most likely effect what you want.
- To avoid being manipulated, don't listen to a candidate speak.

Would you consider holding seminars and bring this sage advice to the general public?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Here we are....you find voting ineffective, yet you travel to polls & wait in line..
I find voting powerful, & I just fill out an absentee ballot without leaving the house.
What a contrast, eh.

Well, I suppose I could just as easily fill out the mail-in ballot, but I guess there's something about actually going to the polls to vote. As for voting being powerful, I suppose that may be true somewhat, although it's also very egalitarian in that it's one person, one vote. No individual has any more power than any other individual, theoretically speaking.

I think what may be at work here (when people talk about voting being ineffective) is that it's not so much a lack of faith in the processes or the functionality of the system. But there may be a lack of faith in the people themselves. Some people call them "sheeple" or think of them as the gullible masses who are too easily mislead and misguided by political hucksters and propagandists. Apparently, they vastly outnumber the relatively few number of smart people who see through those lies and propaganda, yet their voices are left unheard, as they're outvoted in every election.

We might even hope that there's some sort of corporate control - at least someone with some semblance of intelligence running the country.

The alternative you're suggesting - that the voters control it all - would mean that the country is controlled by a collective of stupid people.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well, I suppose I could just as easily fill out the mail-in ballot, but I guess there's something about actually going to the polls to vote. As for voting being powerful, I suppose that may be true somewhat, although it's also very egalitarian in that it's one person, one vote. No individual has any more power than any other individual, theoretically speaking.

I think what may be at work here (when people talk about voting being ineffective) is that it's not so much a lack of faith in the processes or the functionality of the system. But there may be a lack of faith in the people themselves. Some people call them "sheeple" or think of them as the gullible masses who are too easily mislead and misguided by political hucksters and propagandists. Apparently, they vastly outnumber the relatively few number of smart people who see through those lies and propaganda, yet their voices are left unheard, as they're outvoted in every election.

We might even hope that there's some sort of corporate control - at least someone with some semblance of intelligence running the country.

The alternative you're suggesting - that the voters control it all - would mean that the country is controlled by a collective of stupid people.
Going to the polls....
Do you realize that one meets people there?
Lines....crowds....herds...masses!
I want no part of that.
 
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