Making A Mockery of Christianity

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I think that's a little cynical. It depends on the pastor. A reasonable leader does what they do for the benefit of others. Some abuse that power.

A reasonable leader wouldn't need to go through a pantomime farce like the pretend devil-banishing thing you mentioned earlier to convince a group he's the leader and has power. Any influence he's gained as a result of this is gained through deceit and is an abuse of trust.

 

[Oeste]

I think you misunderstand the meaning of what was said; not that they are mocking Christianity, but are making a mockery of it. That is, their actions are, in a word or two, excessively silly.

By whose standard are they "excessively silly", and who amongst us has been tasked with entering church houses, and pronouncing this worship proper, and that worship not?

Religious fervor or not, passionate display or not, the fact of the matter is that the pastor does not have the powers that he claims to have.

In regards to the first video, I don't think the pastor claimed to have any special powers, but like any church pastor he does have power.

The questions I ask myself go like this: If the pastor said "STAND UP" and the church stood up, would this be a claim by the pastor of special powers? No. But it is an example of pastoral power. What if he shouted out "SIT DOWN!". Should we interpret this as a special power of the pastor? No, but again this is an example of pastoral power. There is nothing wrong with ministers exercising pastoral power and I see no claim of special powers by this pastor.

You appear to be making the argument that if church members FALL BACK at a pastor's prompting rather than clap, cheer, or sit in their seat, then this is an abuse of pastoral power. Is this correct?

It seems to me that we can only stand, breathe, sit or crawl by the grace of God, so while this is not the type of service I'm attracted to, I have no problem with it. They are where they need to be, hearing what they need to hear, in a way that appeals to their spirit.

On the other hand, if the pastor were attributing the actions of the church to himself, rather that to the Spirit, then I would more than likely have a problem attending, and would certainly criticize the ministry.

That just solidifies the appearance of a lie, though. When it boils down to "do what the pastor suggests, or you're a blasphemer" the pastor becomes god, and the church service becomes about all the cool stuff he can do.

I talk regularly with folk who attend charismatic churches and have even been to one. Never have I heard anyone called a "blasphemer" for refusing a suggestion from the pastor. Some people feel like falling over in church, others do not. Some feel like singing in church, others will not. Some feel like clapping in church, others do not. I'm sure each church realizes that the person falling over, singing or clapping can be just as much a blasphemer as the person lying on his couch at home.

Neither does the pastor become a god simply because people are falling over, singing or clapping in church. The pastor's role is to move the church toward Christ and help keep it there. So while the spiritual food being served might be extra spicy, I see nothing inherently improper or unhealthy about it.

Put it this way: God has prepared a spiritual banquet (Matthew 22) for all of us but not everyone will take a stab at the beef and potatoes. Some folks will order the flambé.
.

 

[viole]

By whose standard are they "excessively silly", and who amongst us has been tasked with entering church houses, and pronouncing this worship proper, and that worship not?



In regards to the first video, I don't think the pastor claimed to have any special powers, but like any church pastor he does have power.

The questions I ask myself go like this: If the pastor said "STAND UP" and the church stood up, would this be a claim by the pastor of special powers? No. But it is an example of pastoral power. What if he shouted out "SIT DOWN!". Should we interpret this as a special power of the pastor? No, but again this is an example of pastoral power. There is nothing wrong with ministers exercising pastoral power and I see no claim of special powers by this pastor.

You appear to be making the argument that if church members FALL BACK at a pastor's prompting rather than clap, cheer, or sit in their seat, then this is an abuse of pastoral power. Is this correct?

It seems to me that we can only stand, breathe, sit or crawl by the grace of God, so while this is not the type of service I'm attracted to, I have no problem with it. They are where they need to be, hearing what they need to hear, in a way that appeals to their spirit.

On the other hand, if the pastor were attributing the actions of the church to himself, rather that to the Spirit, then I would more than likely have a problem attending, and would certainly criticize the ministry.



I talk regularly with folk who attend charismatic churches and have even been to one. Never have I heard anyone called a "blasphemer" for refusing a suggestion from the pastor. Some people feel like falling over in church, others do not. Some feel like singing in church, others will not. Some feel like clapping in church, others do not. I'm sure each church realizes that the person falling over, singing or clapping can be just as much a blasphemer as the person lying on his couch at home.

Neither does the pastor become a god simply because people are falling over, singing or clapping in church. The pastor's role is to move the church toward Christ and help keep it there. So while the spiritual food being served might be extra spicy, I see nothing inherently improper or unhealthy about it.

Put it this way: God has prepared a spiritual banquet (Matthew 22) for all of us but not everyone will take a stab at the beef and potatoes. Some folks will order the flambé.
.

That pastor is not claiming his own power. He is claiming the power of the Holy Spirit, whatever that is.

Do you think he could equally claim power of the Holy Spirit if everyone stood up when he orders "stand up!" ?

If yes, why is that not enough?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Oeste]

That pastor is not claiming his own power.

Agreed.

He is claiming the power of the Holy Spirit, whatever that is.

Yes, but more accurately, I think he's claiming to be moved by the Holy Spirit and the church is too, much like a dancer claims to be moved by music. As a Trinitarian, I believe the Holy Spirit to be God.

Do you think he could equally claim power of the Holy Spirit if everyone stood up when he orders "stand up!" ?

Yes, because it's only by God's grace that we move at all.

If yes, why is that not enough?

For some, standing up, sitting down, and listening to the pastor and choir is all they need for a good church service. For others, all they would do is fall asleep. We're all different, so what is enough for some would not be enough for others, and what is enough for others would be too much for some.

Good questions Viole, and I appreciate the comments and interaction from everyone.

 

[viole]

Agreed.



Yes, but more accurately, I think he's claiming to be moved by the Holy Spirit and the church is too, much like a dancer claims to be moved by music. As a Trinitarian, I believe the Holy Spirit to be God.



Yes, because it's only by God's grace that we move at all.



For some, standing up, sitting down, and listening to the pastor and choir is all they need for a good church service. For others, all they would do is fall asleep. We're all different, so what is enough for some would not be enough for others, and what is enough for others would be too much for some.

Good questions Viole, and I appreciate the comments and interaction from everyone.

So, all of this is tuned for people who might fall asleep otherwise?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Windwalker]

A reasonable leader wouldn't need to go through a pantomime farce like the pretend devil-banishing thing you mentioned earlier to convince a group he's the leader and has power. Any influence he's gained as a result of this is gained through deceit and is an abuse of trust.

Again, you assume he doesn't actually believe any of this, and that all pastors who do this likewise are charlatans. I find cynicism to kind of fall flat in the face of reason.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

When you walk up to the altar in a Pentecostal church to have the pastor lay hands on you and pray for you, you are doing much more than just sitting quietly in the pew observing keeping your opinion to yourself. You joined in the play as an actor.

Honestly? Referring to the whole thing as a "play" and those in attendance "actors" doesn't really help.

Laying hands on someone in an altar call is in fact part of that ritual. "The laying on of hands" is a big deal in Pentecostal rituals. It is symbolic, believing it imparts a blessing, or a transference of energies.

Aye, and it's usually a touch, not a smack or hard press. The point being that it's incomparable to being told that a wafer is flesh and then spitting it out; anyone with half a brain who lacks belief in transubstantiation or spiritual representation can tell that it is not, in fact, flesh.

Not if someone were told it became human flesh in their mouth because it magically changed and they weren't expecting it. Try saying that to a child at the dinner table and watch their response. I'm imagining a sibling saying that to get a reaction from their sister, or something. Donuts to dollars she'd spit it out.

Adults are - more often than not - not children. An applicable response to a non-Christian going up during communion, receiving the eucharist, and being told that it's human flesh (they actually just say "the body of christ," though) would be to reply "No it's not?" If you're eating a Snickers bar and I tell you it's a dog turd, are you going to spit it out in disgust?

Here's the thing. It was a Pentecostal church. That's a common thing that's going on in there. Was he unaware of the goings on in that kind of church? Were there no other people at the altar having hands laid on them and that sort of thing happening? Had he never heard of or seen that anywhere before? Perhaps, but I tend to doubt that.

As Neo tells it, he was a visitor, not a regular, invited by a friend. I would assume that was his first and only visit. He even mentions that he was unfamiliar with the "procedure" of falling down when touched.

I was a part of a Pentecostal church for many years when I was younger, and most of the pastors very much believed in what they were doing.

Good for them, really. I'm talking about the charlatans who do it for the money. They're not hard to miss; just look for the expensive jewelry and living. Who grow outraged over disbelief and defiance of their example and word. Who act as a petty god, not a faith leader of men.

But he is seen as an intercessor for them, so if he said he doesn't grant them forgiveness, he in fact has powers to them.

Forgiveness essentially cannot be denied to a confessor. Upon confessing their sins, the priest advises them a course of penance for the sin before giving absolution, in where they pray that god will forgive the repentant of their sin. The priest can't deny them forgiveness, as that is not even ritualistically his place. The most he could do would be to counsel a repeat sinner.

I'm not saying that there isn't a degree of power and authority there - obviously there is, he's the priest. I'm saying it is not the same as a guy pretending to be a "magic man".

Perhaps in some cases it is a charlatan, but that does not describe all of those who believe in this.

And again, as I said in post #54, I'm not suggesting taking a World Tour of Skeptics and Cynics, knocking down church doors and ridiculing across the board.

I find cynicism to kind of fall flat in the face of reason.

Cynicism is often built from reason. It is quite often a negative outlook born of experience. How does that fall on it's face?

 

[Deidre]

It's all about $$$$ for some of those churches. It's so sad that who often ''tithes'' to those churches are people who are barely making ends meet, and believe this BS from these pastors. I've always believed that the US should start taxing churches, I mean, some of them run like a business, so they should have to pay taxes, and then maybe you'd see some of these churches ''go out of business.''

 

[whirlingmerc]

I have some serious questions about the 'slain in the sprit' experience. I don't see it in the Bilbe.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Again, you assume he doesn't actually believe any of this, and that all pastors who do this likewise are charlatans. I find cynicism to kind of fall flat in the face of reason.

If he believes any of this then he's deluded and not reasonable.

 

[Oeste]

So, all of this is tuned for people who might fall asleep otherwise?

No. It's tuned for those who like their spiritual food spicy.

Those who fall asleep may fall asleep no matter where they go, but if you're falling asleep because the sermon doesn't engage you (too bland), then you may prefer something livelier.

 

[Shiranui117]

Didn't the Pope abolish Purgatory though?

Purgatory=/=Limbo. Purgatory is the place that people go to be cleansed of their sins before entering Heaven. Limbo was conceived of as a permanent in-between of Heaven and Hell. You're not damned, but you're certainly not saved, either. You just kind of... Exist.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Obviously not a force push. Star Wars is just a movie. It's called a "moving wave punch" or "HADOUKEN!!!!!!!!!"

Didn't someone edit a montage of demon-expelling pastors with Street Fighter sound effects? Because I think I found it

 

[Oeste]

I have some serious questions about the 'slain in the sprit' experience. I don't see it in the Bilbe.

You will not find the word "bible" in your bible, but you may find a "slain in the spirit" experience at 1 Samuel 10 and 19. Here the Spirit overcame Saul when he came amongst some ecstatic prophets.

 

[Glaurung]

You're not damned, but you're certainly not saved, either. You just kind of... Exist.

Sounds like a day at work.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Then there is this guy. He gets debunked the hard way.

looks like a show.... and there's the problem.... does it make God look great or is it just a show

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

When you walk up to the altar in a Pentecostal church to have the pastor lay hands on you and pray for you, you are doing much more than just sitting quietly in the pew observing keeping your opinion to yourself. You joined in the play as an actor.

But the issue is that he wasn't aware his part in the play included pratfalls.

I was a part of a Pentecostal church for many years when I was younger, and most of the pastors very much believed in what they were doing. And none of the members I knew viewed the pastor as having special powers above them as members.

With all due respect, that may be why you're so averse to calling them out.

Perhaps in some cases it is a charlatan, but that does not describe all of those who believe in this. I've known plenty of pastors who believe in this stuff, and they are sincere in their beliefs. They sincerely believe this as "the power of God", their words. I've known them personally, so I can't be a total cynic and claim they're all hucksters.

But all you can really say with any objectivity is that you've known personally people who say they believe this stuff.

Neither does the pastor become a god simply because people are falling over, singing or clapping in church. The pastor's role is to move the church toward Christ and help keep it there. So while the spiritual food being served might be extra spicy, I see nothing inherently improper or unhealthy about it.

Moving people towards Christ should be about making the world a better place, not making people fall and setting up possible injuries.

But that's why I don't go to church anymore. It's a clubhouse, not a means of getting anywhere spiritually.

I have some serious questions about the 'slain in the sprit' experience. I don't see it in the Bilbe.

The Brick Testament

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

That doesn't surprise me, but if memory serves Purgatory is different than Limbo; the former being a state (though commonly seen as a place) of purification before admittance into Heaven.

No Purgatory is doctrine. It is the state of those who have died reconciled to God but have yet to make satisfaction for their sins.

Limbo on the other hand can mean two things. The first being the place where the righteous who died before Christ awaited redemption, and the second being a medieval speculation regarding the fate of unbaptised infants. It is this second idea which the Chruch clarified was never actually doctrine but only a theological hypothesis. In my understanding the idea that the Chruch has denounced Limbo an acceptable belief is more of a media misrepresentation.

Purgatory=/=Limbo. Purgatory is the place that people go to be cleansed of their sins before entering Heaven. Limbo was conceived of as a permanent in-between of Heaven and Hell. You're not damned, but you're certainly not saved, either. You just kind of... Exist.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, guys. I'm glad to say I learned something on the forum yesterday

 

[Sunstone]

When he tells them "Do you want something? TAKE IT!", and than pushes his hand towards them like a Master Jedi, he is obviously not knocking them back with a Force Push.

He is, however, triggering a reaction from them, giving them a moment to just let that numinous passion and ecstasy and enthusiasm overcome them during their group worship and ritual. Those thoughts and emotions are are not "fake" and they are not "acting". These people are allowing themselves to be overwhelmed with spiritual-religious devotion and ecstasy. It is an exciting and very involving element of their spiritual-religious culture.

I am one who prefers solitary worship to group worship, and I still see no reason to mock them.

Jeebers! If what they're feeling is "numinous passion" and "spiritual...ecstasy" then I'd rather have a beer. At least beer now and then has some kick to it.

 

[Sunstone]

Are they deceiving others in order to obtain money?

Nine times out of ten with these televangelists, the answer is "yes".