Man's freewill and God's divine sovereignty

[muhammad_isa]

Yes, I understand that you use this "but god time is different" in an attempt to resolve the paradox, but as I have explained, it does no such thing..

You can't explain any such thing. It is not possible.
All you can do, is say that it is not possible for G-d to know what we will choose "in advance", unless G-d has made it happen.
..which is absolutely false.

Knowledge does not imply causality. It is flawed logic based purely on your intuition of the nature of time.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What's the point then?
Why should we go through a life of suffering, if we can just commit suicide and just cease to be?
If we simply cease to be, the atheists are right.

Atheists are right about unrepentant wicked people because the 'wicked will be destroyed forever' - Psalms 92:7
What is the 'point about a life of suffering' is because of Satan's challenge found at Job 2:4-5.
Sinner Satan not only challenged Job but by way of extension Satan challenges all of us.
'Touch our flesh.... ' ( Loose physical health ) and under adverse conditions we would Not serve God.
( take the easy way out, curse God and die, just commit suicide )
Both Job and Jesus under adverse suffering proved Satan a liar and so can we.
There will be 'No life of suffering' starting with Jesus' coming 1,000 year reign over Earth.
Humanity will be happy and healthy as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If he doesn't know for certain, then by definition, he's not omniscient.

Yes, 'Not know all things for certain' such as He does Not know the 'un-known' number of people at Revelation 7:9,14

 

[muhammad_isa]

( take the easy way out, curse God and die, just commit suicide )
Both Job and Jesus under adverse suffering proved Satan a liar and so can we.

satan surely is a liar.
If anybody thinks that suicide is an easy way out, they are mistaken.

There is no easy way out.
Why should anybody think that G-d only allows suffering in this life?
Where is the justice in that?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

satan surely is a liar.
If anybody thinks that suicide is an easy way out, they are mistaken. There is no easy way out.
Why should anybody think that G-d only allows suffering in this life? Where is the justice in that?

Suffering after death sounds more like vengeance or revenge and certainly Not justice.
Under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law it was ' equal justice '. Not justice plus beyond what is equal.
The Bible says the total asking price tag that sin pays is: Death (Romans 6:23,7)
No where does the Bible teach death plus any post-mortem penalty. No double jeopardy to pay past death.
In the Bible, Jesus never taught suffering past death, rather Jesus taught that death is equal to: sleep.
Just as a person is Not aware of the passing of time while asleep, so the dead are unconscious and Not aware.
This is why Jesus and the OT both teach ' sleep ' in death.
( - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5 )
So, yes, Satan is the liar, and Not God. Sinner Satan teaches a forever burning after death.
False clergy use the word hellfire. Hell fire comes from the word: Gehenna.
King James translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire and that is what put fire in death.
Gehenna was a place where things were destroyed. So Gehenna is a fitting word for : destruction.
But it is only destruction for the wicked - Psalms 37:38; Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22
The choice given at 2 Peter 3:9 is ' repent ' or ' perish ' ( the word 'perish' means be destroyed if not repentant )

 

[KWED]

You can't explain any such thing. It is not possible.
All you can do, is say that it is not possible for G-d to know what we will choose "in advance", unless G-d has made it happen.
..which is absolutely false.

Knowledge does not imply causality. It is flawed logic based purely on your intuition of the nature of time.

Yet again, you show that you don't understand the fundamental nature of the problem.
I have never claimed that by having infallible omniscience god "makes things happen". That is just you attacking a straw man to avoid the actual issue.
God's infallible omniscience merely means that whatever, seemingly free, choice we make is inevitable. The reason for an events inevitability is neither here nor there, but if it is inevitable (which every event must be under god's infallible omniscience), then free will is effectively removed.

And you are still not addressing the thorny issue of Allah determining the outcome of all events by his decree.
It's like a defence lawyer challenging a witness statement while ignoring the CCTV footage of the defendant committing the crime.

Under Islam, there can be no free will in the matter of belief or disbelief (at least for some people). This it confirmed repeatedly by islamic texts. And if there is no free will in the matter of belief, then the concept of heaven and hell becomes not just meaningless but unjust.
And without heaven and hell, Islam makes no sense.
So we can understand why you find it impossible to accept that god's infallible omniscience and predetermination preclude free will. Your very faith rests upon it.

Now, this time could you actually address the specific points I have raised rather than the same old straw man. Thanks.

 

[KWED]

If anybody thinks that suicide is an easy way out, they are mistaken.
There is no easy way out.
Why should anybody think that G-d only allows suffering in this life?
Where is the justice in that?

So you believe that god creates people with mental disorders such as crippling depression that lead to them seeing taking their own life as the only option.
You also believe that such people should then be further punished with eternal torture for the inevitable outcome of the way god created them?
And then you claim some kind of moral high ground because of your beliefs.
*smh*

 

[KWED]

Suffering after death sounds more like vengeance or revenge and certainly Not justice.

That is exactly what it is.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Sinner Satan teaches a forever burning after death.
False clergy use the word hellfire. Hell fire comes from the word: Gehenna.

..so why would satan want people to fear G-d and keep His commandments?
On the contrary, satan wants to lull you into a false sense of security, and lead you into temptation.

The meaning of the Bible is just as clear to Catholics as it is to you.
It is with the advent of Protestantism that the Christian faith began to go downhill.
The concept of G-d became "reformed", and sin became unimportant to many.

Suffering after death sounds more like vengeance or revenge and certainly Not justice.

Why?
Why should suffering after death be revenge?
Is it fair that many people suffer day after day in this life due to oppression, while the people who are responsible for it live in the lap of luxury and then just "cease to be" when they die?

There is no reason to believe in heaven without hell. That is just your wishful thinking.
Eternal oblivion is meaningless.
Either the soul survives death or it doesn't.
Playing word games with soul/spirit does not alter anything at all.

It's easy to believe just about anything we like.
G-d is able to guide each and every one of us.
Jesus rebuked the Sadducees for their false beliefs, but you continue with their false doctrine.

31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world
...
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
-Matthew 25-

You can believe what you like, of course.
satan is indeed a liar.
Suffering is very real .. in this life and the next.
Your claim that G-d only wants us to suffer in this life, but suddenly changes His mind upon physical death is incoherent.

 

[muhammad_isa]

God's infallible omniscience merely means that whatever, seemingly free, choice we make is inevitable. The reason for an events inevitability is neither here nor there, but if it is inevitable (which every event must be under god's infallible omniscience), then free will is effectively removed.

No. You are just continually repeating an assertion.

You are saying that because it is inevitable that we must choose something, then our ability to choose is removed.
It is simply false logic .. you can't see past your own nose.

You instinctively feel that a known future has different properties from an unknown one .. while in fact they are identical.
The only difference is that one is known and one is not.
They are both a series of events.

The only reason why you would see them as different is because your perception tells you that the series of events known as the future is "blank" before it happens.
This is only a perception. If it was really blank, there would be no future.

 

[KWED]

No. You are just continually repeating an assertion.

But it is axiomatic. We have both agreed on it. Whatever god knows will happen, must happen. Whatever god has decreed cannot be changed.
My position is that this negates free will. (If future events are fixed and we cannot change them, this seems pretty self evident.)
Your position is that free will is still valid under such conditions, yet you have not explained how. You merely assert it.

You are saying that because it is inevitable that we must choose something, then our ability to choose is removed.
It is simply false logic .. you can't see past your own nose.

If it is inevitable that we chose x at time t, then we cannot choose a, b, y or z. If we cannot choose anything but the one option that has been decreed by god, then yes, our ability to choose has been restricted. If you are claiming that it is not restricted, you need to explain how.

You instinctively feel that a known future has different properties from an unknown one
.. while in fact they are identical.
The only difference is that one is known and one is not.
They are both a series of events.

You seem to misunderstand the nature of the problem. They are not "known" and "unknown" futures. They are "possible" and "impossible" futures. And they indeed have different properties - one must happen, the others cannot.

The only reason why you would see them as different is because your perception tells you that the series of events known as the future is "blank" before it happens.
This is only a perception. If it was really blank, there would be no future.

But under Islam the future is not "blank". It is predetermined and inevitable. There is only one possible outcome to any given event. The one decreed by Allah.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..If we cannot choose anything but the one option that has been decreed by god, then yes, our ability to choose has been restricted..

Again, that is word-play.
You can choose any option you like.
You claim that the fact that we must choose what G-d has decreed, means that we are restricted in our choice.

It does not mean that at all. You could have chosen another option, but G-d would have known it.

You seem to misunderstand the nature of the problem. They are not "known" and "unknown" futures. They are "possible" and "impossible" futures. And they indeed have different properties - one must happen, the others cannot.

Not at all. The only reason that it "must" happen, is because it is your destiny .. it doesn't mean that you are not free to choose another option if you had wanted to.

We've been through all of this already.
It was suggested to me that it makes no difference whether we want to choose something or not. Some people seem to think that it is not a real "want" because it is known.
That's nonsense, and I have said repeatedly, is about perception of the nature of time.
The past is a fixed series of events that is known as well, which proves that perception of time is the confusion here.
Nobody is saying that the past being known negates free-will.

But under Islam the future is not "blank". It is predetermined and inevitable. There is only one possible outcome to any given event. The one decreed by Allah.

Perception !
The future is not known.
..or are you G-d?

The future cannot be blank .. that would mean that there is no future.

You are saying that it is blank "before" it is filled in.
Human perception of time .. nothing more .. nothing less.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

..so why would satan want people to fear G-d and keep His commandments?
On the contrary, satan wants to lull you into a false sense of security, and lead you into temptation.

The meaning of the Bible is just as clear to Catholics as it is to you.
It is with the advent of Protestantism that the Christian faith began to go downhill.
The concept of G-d became "reformed", and sin became unimportant to many.


Why?
Why should suffering after death be revenge?
Is it fair that many people suffer day after day in this life due to oppression, while the people who are responsible for it live in the lap of luxury and then just "cease to be" when they die?

There is no reason to believe in heaven without hell. That is just your wishful thinking.
Eternal oblivion is meaningless.
Either the soul survives death or it doesn't.
Playing word games with soul/spirit does not alter anything at all.

It's easy to believe just about anything we like.
G-d is able to guide each and every one of us.
Jesus rebuked the Sadducees for their false beliefs, but you continue with their false doctrine.

31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world
...
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
-Matthew 25-
You can believe what you like, of course. satan is indeed a liar.
Suffering is very real .. in this life and the next.
Your claim that G-d only wants us to suffer in this life, but suddenly changes His mind upon physical death is incoherent.

Satan transforms himself into an ' angel of light ' to draw people away from the God of the Bible.
Catholics believe in an un-biblical purgatory. Genuine 'wheat' Christians do Not believe that.
The apostasy set in with the death of the apostles - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30.
That 2nd-century apostasy which is still on-going today does Not make the Bible wrong, but makes it right.
Remember: the ones who are on the narrow road are Not the MANY found at Matthew 7:21-23.

The soul does Not survive death according to Ezekiel 18:4,20 & Acts of the Apostles 3:23.
Adam became a dead soul when Adam died. ALL of Adam died returning to where Adam started - Genesis 3:19

Yes, the symbolic ' eternal fire ' (at Matthew 25:46,41) is Not for people but for: Satan the Devil and his Angels.
Satan and his Angels end up in ' second death ' ( symbolic lake of fire ) Revelation 21:8; Rev. 20:13-14.
Their 'everlasting punishment' is: destruction according to 2 Thessalonians 1:9.
ALL the wicked ( Satan is wicked ) will be destroyed by Jesus which includes Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B.
The 'sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth' will get rid of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15
Sinner Satan is wicked and No wicked one can gain everlasting life anywhere in heaven or the grave/hell.
Romans 6:23 teaches the total asking price tag of sin is: death.
No where does it say death +plus+ any after death post-mortem penalty.
Since ' death ' is the total asking price for sin than anything past death would be double jeopardy.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

....................... Whatever god has decreed cannot be changed.
My position is that this negates free will. (If future events are fixed and we cannot change them, this seems pretty self evident.) Your position is that free will is still valid under such conditions, yet you have not explained how. You merely assert it................................

I would like to take the liberty to say that I find Armageddon (the war to end all wars - Psalms 46:9) is a fixed decree.
Armageddon can Not be changed, however what is Not fixed and can change is who will come through through the great tribulation (before Armageddon) because that is an un-fixed number according to Revelation 7:9,14.
Until Jesus' coming 'Glory Time' of Separation on Earth people are free to choose to be a figurative haughty 'goat' or a humble 'sheep'. That number is still unknown as to who will be a sheep or a goat.
In other words, the door is still open to freely choose. - Matthew 25:31-33,37.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That is exactly what it is.

There is No suffering after death because the dead know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5
Know nothing but ' sleep ' in death according to Jesus (John 11:11-14) and the OT - Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That would be impossible. Human beings can't even create a fly.

I can agree that life does Not come from non-life.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No where does it say death +plus+ any after death post-mortem penalty.
Since ' death ' is the total asking price for sin than anything past death would be double jeopardy.

I'm glad G-d does not treat people like you think that they should be treated.

I could torture you for 50 years, causing immense suffering to you, and all that would happen to me is a painless death?
Hmmph. Your idea of justice is awful.

A lot of people are going to be very disappointed .. G-d is not a person, nor is G-d an imbecile.
A human being has no right to torture anybody, despite having been treated badly.
However, G-d does not torture people either. He doesn't have to.
People are quite capable of doing that to themselves.

Jesus criticised beliefs of Sadducees, like yourself. They too denied that souls are immortal.
G-d is immortal, and our souls return to Him.

I notice you don't answer my questions .. you just repeat your Bible quotes interpreted through sectarian dogma.
..just because mankind don't like something, or can't understand it, they make up something that seems good to them.
You change "eternal fire" into oblivion. How lovely. G-d is a walkover. He let's people escape from justice.
That's not my experience in life, and I have no reason to believe that it will be after death, either.
It would not be consistent with the reality that we find ourselves in now.
i.e. one in which exist both pleasure and pain

 

[KWED]

Again, that is word-play.
You can choose any option you like.
You claim that the fact that we must choose what G-d has decreed, means that we are restricted in our choice.

So you admit that we can only choose the one option that god has decreed we will choose - but we still have free will to choose any option.

It does not mean that at all. You could have chosen another option, but G-d would have known it.

So again, we can only choose that one option that god has decreed we will choose. We cannot choose any other.

Not at all. The only reason that it "must" happen, is because it is your destiny .. it doesn't mean that you are not free to choose another option if you had wanted to.

Don't think you understand what "destiny" means.

If something is your destiny it means that it will happen, whether you want it or not, whether you try to avoid it or not. As Umar ibn al-Khattab said... "No amount of worrying can change your destiny. The outcome is decided by Allah's decree. You cannot avoid what is destined and you cannot have what is not destined".
You cannot "choose" your destiny!

We've been through all of this already.
It was suggested to me that it makes no difference whether we want to choose something or not. Some people seem to think that it is not a real "want" because it is known.
That's nonsense, and I have said repeatedly, is about perception of the nature of time.
The past is a fixed series of events that is known as well, which proves that perception of time is the confusion here.
Nobody is saying that the past being known negates free-will.

The confusion about time seems to be yours.
We do not have the ability to change a fixed past, just as we do not have the ability to change a fixed future.

The future is not known.

Of course the future is known by god. That is the whole point!

The future cannot be blank

.. that would mean that there is no future.
You are saying that it is blank "before" it is filled in.
Human perception of time .. nothing more .. nothing less.

Whuh?
I said ... "But under Islam the future is not "blank". It is predetermined and inevitable. There is only one possible outcome to any given event. The one decreed by Allah."

What seems to be happening here is something like us arguing about whether Man City or Port Vale is the better team.
I keep pointing out why Man City are factually better.
You keep agreeing with me.
But at the end - because you are a Port Vale supporter - you just say, "but Port Vale are better", as if that proves something.

I am genuinely at a loss as to where to go from here.

 

[KWED]

I'm glad G-d does not treat people like you think that they should be treated.
Hmmph. Your idea of justice is awful.

This is supposed to be a joke, yes?
Your god inflicts endless torture on billions of people for the "crime" of being raised in a different religion, or needing evidence or convincing argument before accepting extraordinary claims.
And you consider that to be "justice"?
*smh*

 

[muhammad_isa]

If something is your destiny it means that it will happen, whether you want it or not

Yes, but that does not mean that the choices we make are not what we want to choose .. it means that other people's choices and "acts of G-d" might not be.

The confusion about time seems to be yours.
We do not have the ability to change a fixed past

That is not my point. My point is that the past being fixed does not mean that it couldn't have been fixed by our choices.
i.e. it does not categorically mean that free-will is precluded

..so why should a fixed future?
It most certainly is about the confusion arising from the nature of time.