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Manson family member released

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Apples and oranges? Then why raise the question? There is nothing "childlike" about justice being objective and that a sentence be proportional to the crime.
Proportional? Lex talionus? This is simple, primitive vengeance, not tailored to repair the psychopathology of the offender, but to assuage the ire of the offended, and perhaps deter crime through fear of consequences. Compassion plays no part in your objective justice.
It must be nice to be so indiffernt about others' suffering while claiming to have compassion. The hypocrisy is boggling. The victims are ignored and written off, but the person who caused all the misery for them and for herself deserves nothing but compassion?
Indulging the retributive anger of the offended by hurting the offender is not what I'd call either just or compassionate. Hurting a second person in retribution for the original hurt just multiplies the total hurt, and would please only the compassion-challenged. It would not repair the harm done.
I'm cruel to say that the victims should be the priority, not just the deceased but those who became collateral damage? Then what does that make you? Your stance is utterly tone-deaf and heartless. "The damage has been done", "it is what it is", "Vindictive".
Harming the offender does not benefit the offended. It indulges their vindictiveness and primitive sense of "you hurt me so I'll hurt you." This is a child's level of morality.
You want to talk about cruelty? How about the families were lied to by California, told not to worry when the death sentences were commuted, and assured none would ever actually be paroled? How many times have they had their wounds reopened and salted? The wounds they're supposed to "get over" because "The damage has been done", "it is what it is"? Are they just "vindictive"? Please explain.

How about the fact Van Houten's actions destroyed their 15-year-old son? That he was unable to simply "move on" deespite "the damage was done" and immediately turned to alcoholism while a teen and recently died a broken man from it? I suppose that's his fault, not hers? Get over it, vindictive crybaby, the person who really needs compassion is the murderer, she had to do jail time. Or how about his sister, Suzan, who rushed over when he raised the alarm? Her own daughter, the LaBiancas' granddaughter, was brutally stabbed to death 2 years ago. Now Suzan learns her parents' murderer has been released after years of being assured she would not be. What faith is she supposed to have as she relives not only that murder while enduring the pain of her daughter's murder? Maybe they should just forego a trial altogether because the poor guy will only be subjected to justice vindictiveness and cruelty when sentenced. She just needs to move on because "the damage has been done", "it is what it is". Now, let's show some compassion and worry about the murderer's feelings.
No
I didn't bring up Christian values, you did. I commented that doing so is irrelevant and hypocritical. Though I'll amend that by saying "misplaced, at best".
This is Jesus' take on justice: "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."
Matthew (5:38-42)

And Gandhi's: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Your 'compassion' seems like deliberately hurtful retribution. Any benefit to the offended must need be feeding his vindictiveness.
Just because your arguments are based on skewed "compassion" doesn't mean another position is also emotionally based. You are simply wrong to think it has anything to do with either vindictiveness or hatred. Justice is blind, as I said before. And, once again, has been poorly served.
My position is compassionate and utilitarian.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Counterproductive, yes, but not Christian values? The entire concept of retributive justice is Abrahamic in origin in the West. The model is the god, who inflicts suffering for disobedience (eternal hellfire) for no constructive purpose. That's what many Westerners want prisons to do - inflict gratuitous suffering. They're uninterested in prison conditions except when they fiond them too cushy.
I agree, which is why I used Christian rather than Biblical or Abrahamic values.
:)
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The fact remains the severity of the crime merits total forfeiture of one's freedom in lieu of forfeiting one's life.
Fact? No, just your preference, and not my values.
Where is the compassion for the victims and their families? She gets to put this behind her, they do not.
You seem to be saying that Van Houten should be kept in prison to please the need for revenge of whatever living relatives and friends of the victims remain alive. That's not a humanist value.
Rehabilitation doesn't automatically equate freedom
This is an Abrahamic religious belief - punishment for no benefit. If she's rehabilitated, let her go.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If a car's brakes fail and a pedestrian is killed, do you send the car to the crusher, or fix the brakes?
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Proportional? Lex talionus? This is simple, primitive vengeance, not tailored to repair the psychopathology of the offender, but to assuage the ire of the offended, and perhaps deter crime through fear of consequences. Compassion plays no part in your objective justice.
In your opinion. Compassion plays ZERO part in your skewed perspective. Evidenced by your repeatedly miscategorizing any regard for the families over the murderers as "anger" "hate" etc. Which is not remotely true, you're simply repeating a falsehood. But you have to miscategorize it in order to sound "compassionate".

I notice you consistently ignore the question, "Where is the compassion for her victims and their families". How about answering that question? Where is your compassion for them, they are part of the society that's somehow going to benefit from her release. Tell me how this benefits them. Please, I am genuinely interested in an explanation. Where is compassion for the victims and their families? Unless and until you actually address that, your argument is hollow.
Indulging the retributive anger of the offended by hurting the offender is not what I'd call either just or compassionate. Hurting a second person in retribution for the original hurt just multiplies the total hurt, and would please only the compassion-challenged. It would not repair the harm done.
Again, not anger. Again you deny any legitimacy to the victims and base your argument on falsifying the underlying reasons that oppose your opinion. Not all harm can be repaired but that doesn't mean justice needs to be sidelined and a person absolved of their responsibility to pay their debt.

Harming the offender does not benefit the offended. It indulges their vindictiveness and primitive sense of "you hurt me so I'll hurt you." This is a child's level of morality.
Who said anything about harming her? How is holding her fully accountable for her actions "harm"? Her tribulations are her own doing. She put herself in that situation, she chose to hold down Rosemary LaBianca as she tried to get to her husband whom she could hear pleading for his life as he was being brutalized. She chose to put the pillowcase over Rosemary's head and tie it with a lamp cord. She chose to hold Rosemary down so Krenwinkel could stab her. She chose to call Watson in so he could attack Rosemary with a bayonet. She chose to take the knife Watson gave her and stab Rosemary 30 times. But somehow it's harming her to say her crimes forfeit freedom in society? Unbelievable.
No

This is Jesus' take on justice: "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."
Matthew (5:38-42)

And Gandhi's: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
Well, when Jesus and Gandhi take over the legal system, I'll be more than happy to hear their take on civic law. If we had an eye for an eye, she would have been deleted decades ago and in as brutal a fashion as how she killed others. I'll point out yet again the other cheek was turned when her sentence was commuted. By your stance, no one should ever be held accountable nor made to atone for their actions since it'll "harm" them. smh

Your 'compassion' seems like deliberately hurtful retribution. Any benefit to the offended must need be feeding his vindictiveness.

My position is compassionate and utilitarian.
Your position is anything but compassion nor is it utilitarian and is for anyone other than the parties that actually should have it. If she managed to make herself useful in prison then she would best serve society by staying there and continuing to do so. Perhaps help someone convicted of lesser offenses to change their ways lest they end up like her and find a way to contribute to society upon their release.
 
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