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Mantras without initiation?

Cypress

Dragon Mom
@zenzero
Mantra is the encapsulated "seed form" of the deity as pure potential power.
But you need a Guru who bestows Shaktipat (that is transfer of divine power) on you.
I think I just try with Nama Japa since I know know how to pronunciate Sarvambikesha, thanks to Madhuri :bow: (and thank you Riverwolf, for the hint on 'v').
 
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zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Cypress,

Kindly understand that *mantras* too are ways to 'stilling the mind' and to generate the vibration of the mantra which works externally as an aura a protective shield against unwanted forces and opening of positive forces.
Deities are substitutes for allowing to mind to rest on temporarily on the path. They too are part of the illusion/delusion.
No guru can just bestow any powers just by giving a mantra and has become a business for money earning people using sainthood as marketing gimmicks to attract business otherwise when the time comes for a individual by his own sheer force genuine gurus come on its own. Both seek each other by natural forces of existence like we find where ever there is a low pressure on land winds rush from high pressure areas to balance it likewise guru/chela meeting too happens due to natural forces.

If stilling of the mind is the objective the direct method is meditation/dyana/zen. If one is not confident enough then mantra is another substitute followed by prayers and other forms of *yoga*.

Love & rgds
 

JangchubOzer

New Member
Mantra can be the most effective practice but the vast majority of them are worthless without initiation. They come "batteries not included", and it's the initiation that "plugs them in". Until that point they're like a computer without an internet connection.

It takes a guru to initiated you. As you point out there are a lot of crooks and crazies in addition to the few genuine gurus. Fortunately there are a few "open lines" or mantras that are public domain, and don't need initiation. Some of the most common are Aum Namah Shivaya, or the Buddhist om mani padme hum. You can practice these mantras without initiation, and by practicing them and progressing you might be lead to your guru - who will then give you initiation into your personal mantra.

Also many Buddhist centers offer empowerment, which sometimes come with mantra initiation for a particular Buddha or Bodhisattva.
 
I often wonder about this myself, as I feel that mantras are open to all. In my tradition, Sri Chaitanya said that there are no rules or regulations in chanting the names of Vishnu/Krishna, and that the only true and pure goal of a Vaishnava is developing love for God.

What I do not understand is how a tradition that is so rooted in liberating the chanting of mantra into the hands of the common people would eventually require a guru, sampradaya, etc. I suppose it is also to show one's deep commitment to a life of sadhana and total surrender to God.

Personally, I feel that in this day and age, a guru need not be physically required for one to chant a mantra. I do feel however, that one should be connected to a sampradaya or matha, as they will still receive instruction from a guru about the proper mood of a particular mantra through books, video, and other instructive media.
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
I agree Gaura
The benefit of a Guru is that they can remove doubt which may not be removed through scripture etc. I do not hold that there is any mantra which explicitly requires a Guru to make it move valuable, other than a Guru will remove any doubt.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I follow what my sampradaya says on this, and it is indeed that for certain mantras, and mainly Namasivaya, as that is the core mantra of my sampradaya, Guru is necessary. Other ones like the basic Aum or Aum Saravanabhava, or ones for Ganesha are indeed acceptable.

But the real difference that hasn't been pointed out on this thread is the preparation needed for mantra diksha. Traditionally, the student has to prove he's ready, by practices, and righteous behaviour. Its like having the maturity to win a lottery and not just go get hammered or ____ it all away. Normally it takes 10 years or so after you meet the Guru.

Certainly paying some guy who took a weekend course somewhere a couple hundred bucks to get a mantra is disrespecting any and all tradition. Mantra diksha isn't some commodity you can buy off a shelf if you find the right 'store'.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I often wonder about this myself, as I feel that mantras are open to all. In my tradition, Sri Chaitanya said that there are no rules or regulations in chanting the names of Vishnu/Krishna, and that the only true and pure goal of a Vaishnava is developing love for God.

I agree, and I'll take it a step further. Some people may not like this, and I know there are many who disagree, though it is only my view: I find the idea of a mantra needing initiation by a guru almost elitist. It renders God almost inaccessible and reduces communion with God to a "members only" club. I refuse to believe that God(dess) will be somehow less responsive to a non-initiate. That smacks of the evangelical Christian (even Calvinistic) notion that only certain people have full access to God.

At temple, there is a soft recording that plays over the p.a. system chanting Om namo Narayana. After Sri Shiva abishekam everyone chants Om nama Shivaya. One of the Shaiva priests told me to chant Om nama Shivaya repeatedly for the Lord to help heal my shoulder. I chanted it a few times, not as much as panditji said, but I got results. Lord Shiva didn't heal me Himself, but I believe He put me in the right direction of finding the physical therapists and surgeon who are helping me. I am not initiated and don't plan on it, but I feel that any mantra I've used for a particular purpose (asking for help, giving thanks or praise) has yielded benefits.
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Non-bija mantras are open.

Bija mantras have, historically, been closed without dikṣa. And there is good reason for this. These are mantras that far more directly influenced the wheels of energies which compose the 'ecology of self' of the aspirant. "Messing" with these is spiritually/psychologically dangerous in two ways.

1. There is the possibility of imbalancing oneself and falling from the path.
2. There is a much more marked possibility of inefficacy due to there being no ear to listen and bestow grace. Yes, a dedicated sadhaka can do this without a guru - or rather, with the adi-guru within. But...
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
It should come as no surprise to anyone now who has read any stuff on a forum that there will always be a wide range of views on this, or anything else. Different schools have different interpretations, and individuals within those schools differ as well.

As far as elitism is concerned, we have a hierarchy in Hinduism, from the common man to the chief priest, to learned pandits to ascetics, to Satgurus, etc. etc. On the inside, God dwells within each of us. So in that sense we are equal, but in the outer sense, we differ, because clearly some people are just more religious or enlightened than others. If we can see that in another, we should shut up and listen, not argue. Otherwise it is disrespecting the traditions of wisdom.

If you meet the Dalai Lama, are you going to tell him how to live his life? Well, you could and he's probably let you, , but it may just have a hint of slight misunderstanding in it.

Mom can put a bandaid on your cut. In fact you can do it yourself. A nurse can use a strong antiseptic. A doctor can do stitches. If it gets a nasty foreign infection that nobody figures out we call in House. Is this viewed as elitism?

Personally, I'm more concerned with whether or not it will do anyone any harm. Kundalini experimentation, some tantric practices, the wrong mantra in the wrong hands (vocal chords) etc. can, in some rare instances, do people harm. But its more likely to happen on a higher stage, like waking someone who is in really deep meditation.

So for the most part, ordinary people, regular humble devotees, non-brahmacaryas, won't encounter this kind of thing. So in all practicality, its nothing to worry about.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Non-bija mantras are open.

Bija mantras have, historically, been closed without dikṣa. And there is good reason for this. These are mantras that far more directly influenced the wheels of energies which compose the 'ecology of self' of the aspirant. "Messing" with these is spiritually/psychologically dangerous in two ways.

1. There is the possibility of imbalancing oneself and falling from the path.

with whether or not it will do anyone any harm. Kundalini experimentation, some tantric practices, the wrong mantra in the wrong hands (vocal chords) etc. can, in some rare instances, do people harm.

These I agree with, because I do believe one can bring evil or negativity upon oneself if a prayer, incantation, mantra, ceremony is misused deliberately (God watches over drunks, babies and idiots; I think God would protect the idiot who unknowingly misuses a prayer or mantra, jmo). I have a sister-in-law who is always attempting to "put curses" on people. Guess what... ? It backfires; she lives the most miserable and pitiable existence, always running into obstacles, driving people away, and causing problems for herself. I believe it is because of her misuse of prayer. So to that extent I believe that one has to be careful. I believe it is as Vinayaka said "So for the most part, ordinary people, regular humble devotees, non-brahmacaryas, won't encounter this kind of thing. So in all practicality, its nothing to worry about."
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Agreed, there is a dislike coming from the idea that we don't have direct relationship with God, or that there is some kind of inequality. However inequality is natural or exist in nature.

I wonder sometimes if I have the wrong impression of these things due to how my society dictates, for example look how someone labours extra hours for an employer in return for some extra cash, but we might feel disgruntled to bend and touch a man's foot (guru). My society seems to think equality and inequality is determined by economics.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Respect for the Guru by prostrating or touching feet is the custom, the tradition. In the west, people might respect a great musician by giving him a standing ovation as he walks on stage. Our flags get respected. So this is a cultural norm. Adjusting to it can be difficult for some, yes. But if you think its difficult from this side, imagine the 'test' from the other side. If someone prostrated to me, I'd be going nuts ... "please don't, go away." For realized beings, in advaitic truth, it wouldn't be hard, because they transcend all that sort of stuff, mind-games included, but for swamis still on the path, it has to be incredibly difficult. I heard somewhere they chant the mantra, "I don't deserve this, I don't deserve this."
 
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Maya3

Well-Known Member
In my tradition we chant a lot. Everything is chanted, the scriptures and mantras, we chant it all.
My teacher says that there is no danger in chanting without being initiated, chanting helps you feel the vibration of God it is never bad.

Maya
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Agreed, there is a dislike coming from the idea that we don't have direct relationship with God, or that there is some kind of inequality.

I think those of us who came from monolithic religions (the RCC and EOC in my case) chafe at the idea of an intermediary between God and man, like the pope or a patriarch, or even parish priest who can grant, revoke or withhold grace, blessings or powers. While it's true that a temple priest performs pujas and gives blessings from the deities (and I do respect the priests for their learning and dedication), some people never set foot in a temple in their lives to receive a blessing from a priest. That is, there is no intermediary. Maybe my thinking is skewed because of my rebellion against the RCC and EOC.
 
Certainly paying some guy who took a weekend course somewhere a couple hundred bucks to get a mantra is disrespecting any and all tradition. Mantra diksha isn't some commodity you can buy off a shelf if you find the right 'store'.

It's one reason why I don't do hatha yoga... why would I need to pay for it, when it was free for hundreds, if not thousands, of years?

I have to agree though that it definitely also depends on the school of thought, and sometimes even individual gurus of a given tradition. One example I can readily give are from two mathas of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. In ISKCON, the idea is to give the Hare Krishna Mahamantra to everyone, and that even if in joke, any recitation of the names of Lord Krishna are considered benedictory. In SCS Math however, Mahamantra should never be chanted by those who have no love for God, for fear of offense.

I feel that right intention is where the heart of the matter lies. I reflect on Sri Ramanujacharya's example, who said that he would even go to hell if it meant that the common people could recite the name of Sriman Narayana. By taking shiksha (instruction) from a guru of that lineage, whether in book form, video form, audio form, or by his very personage, I believe that it is sufficient enough to appropriate oneself in the beginning for mantra meditation.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
haribol:namaste

I have to agree though that it definitely also depends on the school of thought, and sometimes even individual gurus of a given tradition. One example I can readily give are from two mathas of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. In ISKCON, the idea is to give the Hare Krishna Mahamantra to everyone, and that even if in joke, any recitation of the names of Lord Krishna are considered benedictory. In SCS Math however, Mahamantra should never be chanted by those who have no love for God, for fear of offense.

think I have to go with the yes , mahamantra can be chanted by anyone , but I would not personaly try to trick anyone into chanting , because if they do commit an offence , then that offence would be mine ! and commiting offence would be no good for them either .


but the mantra given by ones guru carries the blessing of the guru , therefore becomes a stronger mantra when recited with the gurus blessing .
but in the end allmost everything boils down to sincerity , however it does help to have the blessing and guidance of a guru .
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I think those of us who came from monolithic religions (the RCC and EOC in my case) chafe at the idea of an intermediary between God and man, like the pope or a patriarch, or even parish priest who can grant, revoke or withhold grace, blessings or powers. While it's true that a temple priest performs pujas and gives blessings from the deities (and I do respect the priests for their learning and dedication), some people never set foot in a temple in their lives to receive a blessing from a priest. That is, there is no intermediary. Maybe my thinking is skewed because of my rebellion against the RCC and EOC.

But the role of the Hindu priest is never as an intermediary. Nor does the Guru have that role. The Guru is gentle teacher or guide, haven already travelled the path. The priest, (traditionally anyway, there are some who have, mainly for financial reasons stepped outside the traditional role) is there to run the temple. So he's no intermediary either, although one's connection to God can be truly enhanced by a good priest.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
That's what I mean about the priest, not as an intermediary, but as the name 'pujari' indicates, one who performs the services. You're right about the priest enhancing the connection to God. I feel that way about them. Perhaps I am not fully aware of what a guru's role is. I do believe that I am jaded by my experiences with the so-called 'teachers' of the western churches... the priests and nuns. Many of them, in my experience, were anything but gentle teachers. I'll have to look into this more. Thanks. :)
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Guru, by definition, means spiritual teacher, and are nothing at all like teachers in the western system. They're coming at it from a whole different angle. Tradition is that an eastern teacher can't teach unless someone asks him to. So the fool approaches the wise, and then a relationship starts. Here in the west it is the self-appointed wise approaching the 'fools', only determined to be fools by the same self-appointed wise. (I keep getting the image of Dr. Phil now, darnit!)
 
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