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Many Mansions in the afterlife

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Being omnipotent means not having any limits. So God is not limited to one way of being. God could certainly be both pantheistic and an Abramaic type observing God at the same time. I think the Universe exists so God can realize His omnipotence. I think the mind of God is recursive in nature and our Big Bang is the result of a star collapsing to a black hole in a previously existing space-time dimension.
No, God is not limited by anything. It is humans who are limited in our ability to understand or encompass a transcendent ineffable God. God is the Mystery of Mysteries.

“Wert thou to ponder in thine heart, from now until the end that hath no end, and with all the concentrated intelligence and understanding which the greatest minds have attained in the past or will attain in the future, this divinely ordained and subtle Reality, this sign of the revelation of the All-Abiding, All-Glorious God, thou wilt fail to comprehend its mystery or to appraise its virtue.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 165
God is exalted beyond and above any limitations such as proximity and remoteness. God is closer to us than we are to ourselves. That some of us are near and others are far from God is to be ascribed to our relationship with God.
When you take into account the total number of stars capable of collapsing to a black hole it gives you a new perspective on comprehending the vastness of the God's mind through countless dimensions of reality. Why would we ever think our space-time Universe is the only one or will ever be the only one. Even if the Universe succumbs to heat death it would still be possible to make another throw of the dice in and infinite number of possibilities.
Clearly, there is more than just this world. There are "many worlds of God." These worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to our eyes after we leave this dark and narrow would.

“As to thy question concerning the worlds of God. Know thou of a truth that the worlds of God are countless in their number, and infinite in their range. None can reckon or comprehend them except God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.’” Gleanings, pp. 151-152
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
(Michael Tymn, The Afterlife Revealed, pp. 11, 12, 14-19)

1 Edmonds, John & Dexter, George T., Spiritualism, Partridge Brittan, New York, 1853, p. 230
2 __________ p. 203
4 Hare, Robert, M.D., Experimental Investigation of the Spirit Manifestations, Partridge Brittan, New York, 1855, p. 142
5 __________ p. 96
7 __________ p. 89
14 Moses, William Stainton, More Spirit Teachings, Meilach.com, Sec. II, p. 8
16 __________Thomas, Charles Drayton, Life Beyond Death with Evidence, W. Collins Sons. & Co., Glasgow, 1928, p. 168
17 __________ p. 170
18 __________ p. 217
20 Davis, Andrew Jackson, Death and the After Life, Colby & Rich, Boston, 1865, p. 95
22 Ballard, Stan A. & Green, Roger. The Silver Birch Book of Questions & Answers, Spiritual Truth Press, London, 1998, p. 39
23 __________ p. 162
24 Gilbert, Alice, Phillip in the Spheres, The Aquarian Press, London, 1952, p. 93
25 Cummins, Geraldine, The Road to Immortality, The Aquarian Press, London, 1955, p. 72
For more reading I recommend:
1. The Urantia Book A Brief Description of The Urantia Book | Urantia Book | Urantia Foundation
2. Michael Newton's books: Michael Newton
3. Robert Monroe's books: Robert A. Monroe
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
The following excerpts are from a book entitled The Afterlife Revealed by Michael Tymn. His description of the afterlife closely parallels what the Baha’i Faith teaches although it goes into much more detail. I found it fascinating so I wanted to share it with everyone here. Unfortunately, the book is not online to read, so I had to type this up.

“All major religions teach that in some manner human consciousness survives bodily death and sooner or later is awakened in a nonmaterial environment. Nirvana, Gan Eden, Heaven, Paradise, Sheol, Purgatory, Hades, Gehenna, and Hell are some of the names assigned to afterlife destinations. These environments ranged from indescribable and incomprehensible bliss to unspeakable and unimaginable torment. Seemingly, a life of love and service should result in a blissful state, but some major belief systems hold that even a life devoted to love and service is not enough to warrant the blissful environment in the “afterlife” if the individual has not bowed to the proper Savior or God or has not fully subscribed to the particular dictates of its particular dogma and doctrine. The predominant religious thinking seems to be that we end our earthly lives being labeled either “righteous” or “wicked” – no in-between – and our new environment is either positive or negative.

In the blissful state, we should find, according to some religions, souls who led selfish and hateful lives but who repented on their deathbeds or “found” their Savior just before dying and suddenly became righteous. Among the tormented, we should expect to find souls who led righteous lives for most of their years but who transgressed just before dying or never recognized their Savior.

It is difficult to reconcile much of what major religions consider the proper station in the afterlife with the loving, forgiving, and just God they see as governing that afterlife.

In John 14:2, Jesus says, “In my Father’s house are many mansions. If it were not soI would have told you.” Greek scholars tell us the Greek word translated to mansions originally meant a stopping place or a temporary abode. The usual orthodox Christian interpretation is that is that Jesus was referring only to Heaven. However, modern revelation suggests that Jesus was referring to the whole spectrum of the afterlife, from what is termed Hell on “up” through different realms or planes or spheres until we reach Heaven. This is somewhat consistent with the Buddhist view holding many states until reaching Nirvana or true Heaven and it is the primary lesson coming to us through Spiritualism. These states are also referred to as spheres, planes, realms, dimensions, and levels of vibration. They involve moving from darkness in the lower spheres to overwhelming brightness on the higher ones. The third sphere or plane, referred to by Spiritualists as “Summerland,” is said to be where the average decent soul finds him- or herself immediately after death. The conditions there are said to be much the same as on the earth plane.

Emanuel Swedenborg* wrote that he discovered infinite diversity in “heaven” and “countless communities” during his clairvoyant explorations. Like Swedenborg, Edgar Cayce, the famous American “sleeping prophet” of the last century, also told of taking a tour of many realms during one of his out-of-body experiences. He described how he encountered a stream if light he knew he must follow. In the lower or darker realms he saw “forms” that were floundering or lost and seeking the light. As the light grew stronger and stronger, he arrived at a place where individuals appeared much as they do today. Some seemed content, while others were striving for greater knowledge and light.

As discussed in Chapter I, Dr. George T. Dexter, A New York physician, reluctantly became a medium and began receiving many profound messages from Swedenborg and Sir Francis Bacon. On May 22, 1853, Swedenborg communicated that the moral condition of the spirits of the lower spheres does not appear to differ materially from the moral condition of the unprogressive man in our world. “They many, it is true, have moments when their spirits yearn for the brighter spheres beyond their dark plane, when conscious of its birthright, the soul awakens to a sense of its own degradation, and realizes its true situation,” he wrote through Dexter’s hand, “but they live and act as unprogressive man does, daily performing their accustomed round of malicious action, and carrying out the designs of their blunted perceptions; and it is not till some event, out of the ordinary occurrences of life, arouses them completely and opens their understanding to the reception of truth, that they begin to progress. There is so little difference in the whole action of spirit-life from your life, except that one step forward has been made – I do not refer to higher spheres, of course – that the correspondence is almost exact. (1)

Swedenborg went on to say that spirits in the lower spheres live as if they do not realize there is anything beyond their own misty dwelling places, and as if they are incapable of being impressed with good and true.

On September 25, 1853, one of the circle sitters, a Mr. Warren, asked Bacon what impelled spirits in the lower and darker spheres to choose to go there and remain indefinitely. “The reason is obvious,” Bacon replied. The great law of like attracting like obtains throughout the whole of the spheres. When a departed spirit enters into the spheres, he is at once attracted where he finds congeniality of place and persons. They could not be happy in the bright spheres. They could find no enjoyment where there is either virtue or goodness. Thus their first efforts are to locate themselves where the acquired attributes of mind in all its workings may be gratified. Their bodies are gross and their minds still grosser. (2)

Bacon added that there is in this condition of both body and mind a state which rejects magnetically all above and they are compelled to take a place appropriate for their moral advancement or lack thereof. He said that the law of affinity is manifest as much in the higher spheres as in the lower, and that no spirit can become bad all at once or good instantly, adding that the law of progression and retrogression is in full force in all spheres.

Within two or three years of the communications coming through Dr. Dexter, Professor Robert Hare received similar messages. As he came to understand the afterlife environment, there are many graduations between the lowest degree of vice, ignorance, and folly and the highest degrees of virtue, learning, and wisdom. When we cross over to the other side after physical death, we take our place based on what Hare called a “moral specific gravity, “ as discussed in Chapter V.....

As soon as he was convinced that the phenomena were credible reports from spirits of the dead, Hare began asking about their abodes, their modes of existence, their theological doctrines, and diversities of their situations. He was told that there are seven spheres, the terrestrial sphere occupied by humans being first, while the second sphere is where depraved spirits find themselves until they can begin the process of purification that allows them to ascend to higher spheres. When spirits reach the seventh sphere, they are entitled to enter the supernal heaven. He was also informed that there are no visible boundaries between spheres, but spirits have a peculiar sense which makes them understand when they are passing from one sphere to another.

“The most favorable idea of heaven given in Scripture seems to be that which identifies it with Paradise,” Hare, wrote. “In other words, a most beautiful garden. But who would conceive an eternal residence in one garden, however superlative its attractions, as desirable? The idea of the spheres assumes a succession of gardens, with every pleasure, every joy of which the human heart and intellect are capable; and beyond those gardens the whole universe is open to us, and an ultimate ministration as angels under our Heavenly Father.” (4)

Hare’s disincarnate father further explained that the spirit goes to a sphere for which it is morally and intellectually adapted; thus, the first sphere above the terrestrial one, i.e., the second sphere, is the abode of “degraded” spirits, meaning not only evil spirits but “misdirected” ones as well. He pointed out that there are millions of such spirits in the second sphere, what religions call Hell, Hades, or Purgatory, who are groping and unable to free themselves from the fetters of earthly conditions. This sphere is said to be the sphere of as many spirits as all the five spheres above it. Nevertheless, contrary to the teachings of many religions, the spirits on this sphere are not permanently confined there as “onward and upward” is the motto of the spirit world. Sooner or later, spirits from higher levels are able to reach them and help them see the light.

Because of the barriers spirits much overcome in communicating with the material world, the senior Hare warned his son to discern the messages and not take everything literally: As there are no words in the human language in which spiritual ideas may be embodied, so as to convey their literal and exact signification, we are obliged ofttimes to have recourse to the use of analogisms and metaphorical modes of expression. In our communion with you we have to comply with the peculiar structure and rules of your language; but the genius of our language is such that we can impart more ideas to each other in a single word than you can possibly convey in a hundred.” (5)......

Each sphere, the senior Hare said, is divided into six circles, or societies in which congenial spirits are united and subsist together according to the law of affinity. While these spirits generally agree immoral and intellectual matters, there are individual differences and some disagreements. Spirits united by ties of consanguinity and marriage may or may not be linked together in the spheres and in the same society. It depends on the affinity between them, including the level of advancement. However, a spirit in a higher sphere can pass to a lower one to visit with loved once. But a spirit can never ascend to the higher spheres until fully prepared for such a transition.”

(Michael Tymn, The Afterlife Revealed, pp. 6-11)

(Continued on next post)


There may be different channels of approach, yes. For not all peoples walked in the field when the wheat was ripe. Neither did all stand at the tomb when Lazarus was called forth. Neither were they all present when He walked on the water, nor when He fed the five thousand, nor when He hung on the Cross. Yet each experience answered, and does answer to something within each individual soul-entity. For each soul is a corpuscle in the body of God.

-- Edgar Cayce Reading 3395-2


so then, even here a mansion has been prepared.


1 Corinthians 3:16
Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And I hope what I tried to explain made some kind of sense to you. I find it extremely hard trying to articulate my spiritual experiences/understandings so that people can understand them. Everything is soooooooooooooo very different and outside of their experiences that it's hard to express SOMETHING they can relate to. So if I fail, feel free to ask questions.
Yes, I know spiritual experiences are very difficult to describe in words so that we (who have not experienced them) can understand and relate to. But nevertheless I appreciate your trying to explain them. That both the soul and the afterlife are a mystery is a teaching of my religion.

“The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men...... The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother.” Gleanings, pp. 156-157

“As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings, pp. 345-346
I have a little time to try answering your what happens to "nonbelievers" question. Although I'm not sure what you mean by "nonbelievers". But it really doesn't matter if you mean CHRISTIANITY "nonbelievers" or "nonbelievers" like atheists since you mentioned them in the same paragraph. Although it really doesn't matter if they are either type of "nonbelievers", Christians, Muslims, Hindu, Mormon, etc, etc, etc... They ALL have to spiritually evolve enough to pass God's judgment before they can get to enter the spiritual realm or what most call "Heaven". No matter how many life cycles it takes.
Interesting, so you believe that God judges all souls and that is how they progress? What did you experience that leads you to believe that? What do you mean by life cycles?

I believe that we all enter the spiritual realm after we die because we leave the physical realm, but as the book I quoted says, we will be on different levels of spiritual development after we die. We can progress and move up to the next levels as we progress spiritually but we will never retrogress. I guess you could say that heaven is at the top level.
The only exceptions are those poor souls who have spent eons being "recycled" in the physical worlds and have shown little or no spiritual progress. There was some mention of this in your opening posts of this thread. Where it's determined that that there is just no way they will ever make it on their own and need some spiritual guides to spend vast amounts of effort trying to help them out. And even though they can only stay at the edge/outer boundaries of God, the energy is still too "pure" for them and they even need help just to cope dealing with that.
That is what I believe. Did you discover this in some of your spiritual experiences?
But other than those exceptions, the overall criteria for passing God's judgment it to be spiritually evolved enough to play some part in helping out in God's plan for ALL souls. Mostly it's about helping out all the souls still on the physical worlds so that they can evolve enough to pass judgment and enter "Heaven" also. (This is where I have some doubt on what some of the people actually saw/experienced in the writings you copied. That just doesn't match up with anything I ever experienced. But I don't have time to go into it now.)
Is this what you saw or experienced in your spiritual experiences? This is very interesting. What you said about souls in the spiritual world helping out all the souls still in the physical worlds so that they can evolve aligns with my religious beliefs... For example, referring to holy souls who have passed on:

“The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157
One last note for now though, as for your comment of:

"I find this life really shallow and empty, quite boring, except for spiritual things I can read about and discuss... The material world can just disappear for all I care. I love animals and nature and some people, that is about it. You can have the rest."

Do you happen to have the other half of this amulet?
What do you mean by that? o_O
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
“The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men...... The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother.” Gleanings, pp. 156-157
Compare your first two posts with all your quotes from this Bahá’u’lláh. There's more useful and detailed information in one page of a Michael Newton book or the Urantia Book than all you have quoted from this Bahá’u’lláh in this thread. Read those instead.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes, there may be similarities as well as differences in NDEs as well as in all spiritual experiences. There are many reasons for that. But to me I see the biggest pitfall is where people add in their previous religious beliefs into the actual experience, or in the interpretation of it. Like a Christian will tell of "Jesus" walking towards him, when it could have been his spiritual guide that he didn't even know he had. Or those that see a "bright light", instead of accepting it for just that, add in that it was "God" or "Jesus".

For myself, my first experience with "death" and my soul's visit to the spiritual realm happened long, long, before I even had an inkling of much of anything, let alone the concepts of "soul", "God", "judgment", "reincarnation", that there even was a whole universe, let alone know how god made it, etc, etc, etc... So it was all experienced with a clean slate and so could not possibly add any preconceived religious beliefs into the experience. And although at one time as I got older, I did try reading various religious and spiritual writings, I quickly decided not to do that so I fall into the very trap I believe others fall into by adding things into the spiritual experiences or mis-interpreting them.
I do not know what you think about religions or any religion in particular, but just off the top of my head what if the religions are actually religions from God, and Jesus really does greet people in the afterlife? I actually believe there are spirit guides, holy souls who come down from higher levels (spheres) and assist those who are less spiritually developed, but I also believe it is possible that Christians will see Jesus and those of other religions will see whatever Prophet/Messenger/Holy Man they believed in. It is not a given they will see them, and I do not think everyone will see them, but those who are at higher levels will be more likely to see them. Maybe Jesus greets newcomers just to help them feel comfortable and then goes back to His own high place?

As for that *bright light* people say they see, the jury is out as far as I am concerned. I suppose people attribute that light to whatever preconceived ideas or beliefs they have.

So what do you think is the *value* of not having any prior beliefs before we die?

I definitely think that religious beliefs could be a hindrance, especially if people cling to doctrines and dogma that has no value in the spiritual world, or a religion that was not even true, as they believed it. This was pointed out in the book I cited in the OP:

A century earlier, Andrew Jackson Davis reported that many souls continue to subscribe to the same religious beliefs they held in the physical world. He referred to this sphere, or section of the sphere, as Altolissa. “Jews still believe in the doctrine of their fathers – Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; the Roam Catholics hold the same views they did before death; and there are other sects in Altolissa who think and believe in the same things and forms of faith they learned on earth,” he stated, adding that they are so far below the ‘higher planes’ that this is required in order to make them feel ‘at home.’ However, all eventually evolve toward a single understanding of spirit.”​
Thanks for adding that, yes, as my soul travels around in the spiritual realm/"Heaven" I have never detected any noticeable barriers or boundaries. The energy just gets more powerful and "purer" as I move towards the center. And can only get about 2/3 of the way "in" before it gets hard to deal with. That's why I'm so perplexed why they make all these "levels" "spheres" "Heavens" boundaries. I've tried very hard to detect ANYTHING, but I cannot.
I think that in the OP it was pointed out that there are not really boundaries between the spheres that are detectable, but rather one is aware when they are passing from one sphere to another one, going higher or lower. Please note that those who communicated to the medium were trying to explain their experiences in a way that we who have not experienced it can hopefully understand. You said: “The energy just gets more powerful and "purer" as I move towards the center” because that is what you have experienced, but moving towards the center could be the same as what is described as moving *up* to a higher sphere.

Another book that talks about different levels in the spiritual world is Heaven and Hell, and it goes into a lot more detail than The Afterlife Revealed. Sometime I might post a thread citing that book, if I ever have time. At least I would not have to type it, since I converted the pdf I found online to a Word document! But I would have to decide what I want to post; there is sooooooo much, and it is all good. There are some things I consider questionable in that book, certain ideas about Jesus (as opposed to God) being the ruler of the spiritual world, but since the book was written in 1758 it is understandable why Swedenborg wrote that, since he did not know what has happened since 1758.

My material world is falling apart right now :eek:, so I will get back to what post I can when I can. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Compare your first two posts with all your quotes from this Bahá’u’lláh. There's more useful and detailed information in one page of a Michael Newton book or the Urantia Book than all you have quoted from this Bahá’u’lláh in this thread. Read those instead.
Thanks, I will try to find the time to read those...

I am certain that there are many books that depict the afterlife in more detail than Baha'u'llah did, but that does not mean that Baha'u'llah did not know more than He told us. ;)

Baha'u'llah wrote a lot about the soul, but not much about the afterlife...Baha’u’llah and Shoghi Effendi explained why we are not told more about the afterlife:

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345

"Bahá'u'lláh says that were we to have the proper vision to see the blessings of the other world we would not bear to endure one more hour of existence upon the earth. The reason why we are deprived of that vision is because otherwise no one would care to remain and the whole fabric of society will be destroyed."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 22, 1932)

"You ask an explanation of what happens to us after we leave this world: This is a question which none of the Prophets have ever answered in detail, for the very simple reason that you cannot convey to a person's mind something entirely different from everything they have ever experienced. Abdu'l-Bahá gave the wonderful example of the relation of this life to the next life being like the child in the womb; it develops eyes, ears, hands, feet, a tongue, and yet it has nothing to see or hear, it cannot walk or grasp things or speak; all these faculties it is developing for this world. If you tried to explain to an embryo what this world is like it could never understand--but it understands when it is born, and its faculties can be used. So we cannot picture our state in the next world. All we know is that our consciousness, our personality, endures in some new state, and that that world is as much better than this one as this one is better than the dark womb of our mother was...."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 3, 1943)


Lights of Guidance (second part)

But I wanted to know more so that is why I read other sources. ;)
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
One thing I have heard and it makes sense, is that NDEs are not a full representation of what the spiritual world will be like because those who experienced them were not FULL Y DEAD. There is a wall (figuratively speaking) that separates the spiritual world from the material world, beyond which there is no coming back. Those who have had NDEs have described this.

I have more time now to respond to your comments with more detail. I was rushed last night because I'm now old and cranky so like to get some sleep.

Anyway, yes, the physical and spiritual universes/realms are completely separate. That's why I cannot help but marvel at how God made us "alive" at all. For while the physical and the spiritual are separate, and so while our souls can only exist in the spiritual universe/realm, he made our physical bodies that can only function and exist here, as elaborate interfaces for our souls to interact with the physical universe/realm without having any direct contact itself.

As to your "beyond which there is no coming back" comment, I'm not sure what you read about that.

The only thing I can relate to on that is when on my original NDE/OBE, since I was way too young to understand what all was happening, everything was fully explained to me. And when God told me I was "dying" as soon as I wondered what that meant, he told me that it means that I would NEVER get to see another sunrise, feel the crispness of a nice spring morning, or feel the wind or sunshine upon my face, smell flowers, play outside, have birthday parties, or experience anything else I held dear in life. And as each one was stated, I was given the experience of each and the joy it gave me in my life. I could feel and experience them all in the most vivid manner imaginable. Then I was trying to think if I knew of a way back somehow. But was told in a loud booming voice that NO I could NOT EVER go back! And that once "it" (My life.) is gone "it" is gone FOREVER, and I would NEVER get "it" back!!! At that point the sum total of my existence was was filled with so much FEAR and overwhelming PAIN that it pierced to the very depths of my soul! It was unbearable! The sum total of my existence at that time was overwhelming fear/pain of facing that my existence would end. But quickly even that diminished as "I" was fading into nothingness, non existence, and didn't even have the energy to be fearful anymore. The last thing I remember is being filled with deep profound sadness and the thought "Oh well, I guess this is the end."

Then I was shocked beyond description when I found myself suddenly looking up into my fathers face and realizing that I was ALIVE, I was still ALIVE!!!

Now I don't know if that was part of the "reincarnation" process, or God was just showing me what "death" was, ever since then all I cared about is that I'm still alive.



The other thing is that although spiritual experiences have a lot in common, they are also different, since humans are all different, so what you experienced might be different from what others will experience. That is only logical.

Maybe that explains why the spirits who communicate back to this world describe the spiritual world as spheres or different levels, so we can understand it better. The book also points out that those who are in a given sphere are really not aware of a boundary, a clear line of demarcation between one sphere and the next, only they realize there is and above and a below which is of course not a matter of geography but rather a spiritual state of the soul.

Yes, that's my #1 theory, that these "levels", "spheres", "Heavens", etc are just ways to explain the spiritual universe/realm in a way those people could understand.

I agree with most of what you said about God and the universe; God creates, maintains, and controls the universe, only I do not believe that God IS the universe. I believe that God is separate from the universe and His Creation, although God is omnipresent and fully aware of our every thought and feeling, closer to us than our life vein. That might seem like an oxymoron, but it would take some explaining; maybe later as it is getting late here. Certainly nobody knows much about God or the soul, both are mysteries. Since you experienced the soul without the body, you are privy to information the rest of us do not have. It is not really something that can be described in words, I am sure.

I believe it takes on a form after we die, but it is not a physical form, it is a form made up of spiritual elements that exist in the spiritual realm. That has been described in various ways by those beyond the veil.

This is a good topic that I think it best to take my time writing a reply separately, then copying it in at a later date. Because YES, I find it extremely, excruciatingly, hard to try explaining some of the spiritual experiences/concepts because it's so far outside of most everyone's experience. I often get frustrated trying to find ways to explain such things in some context they can relate to.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
I think God's goal with our existence is to realize unimaginable possibilities. What does this mean. I think God is realizing His omnipotence by experiencing what it means to have a thought so complex that even He doesn't have the ability to understand it until it is realized. But over an infinite amount of time God will eventually realized every possible possibility in reality, and by doing so, complete the experience of His own omnipotence.

So I'm not sure there's a plan in a humanly understandable sense. I think the plan is to NOT have a plan.

I think everyone passes God's judgment and there is no recycling. Essentially everyone is absorbed back into the mind of God.

Please take some time to share whatever it is that you've experienced that you do not have the time to go into right now.

Well, I'm sorry but I cannot agree with your comments.

There is nothing I've even experienced in my spiritual experiences, or that imparted and/or shown me that supports any of that.

That being said, I'm mainly on this forum website to debate with the Christians, and so have no quarrel with your beliefs. So long as you don't start slandering God as being this horrifically wrathful and demonic "god" like the Christians claim, then we're good.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Also, my religion teaches essentially the same things about the soul and the afterlife that come through in these experiences, although it does not go into any detail, so real life experiences are further confirmation. But the gist from my religion is that the spiritual world is much broader and there are many worlds of God, and there is no way to actually describe the joy and gladness we will experience when we cross over because there are no words adequate to describe a spiritual world that is so different from this world. Being the curious sort, I guess that is why I go poking around for more information.

Back to this...

Before I put my foot in my mouth as the saying goes, what is your religion?

I don't want to say something to offend you, as I'm not too found of religions in general so tend to vent from time to time.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
There may be different channels of approach, yes. For not all peoples walked in the field when the wheat was ripe. Neither did all stand at the tomb when Lazarus was called forth. Neither were they all present when He walked on the water, nor when He fed the five thousand, nor when He hung on the Cross. Yet each experience answered, and does answer to something within each individual soul-entity. For each soul is a corpuscle in the body of God.

-- Edgar Cayce Reading 3395-2


so then, even here a mansion has been prepared.


1 Corinthians 3:16
Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

We are having some good discussions here, so please don't ruin everything by bringing in some man made mythology references that makes no sense.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Yes, I know spiritual experiences are very difficult to describe in words so that we (who have not experienced them) can understand and relate to. But nevertheless I appreciate your trying to explain them. That both the soul and the afterlife are a mystery is a teaching of my religion.

“The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men...... The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother.” Gleanings, pp. 156-157

“As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings, pp. 345-346

Ok, so you do understand. Thank God for that!

So again, if what I TRY to articulate about them, please explain what you don't understand or ask questions.

Interesting, so you believe that God judges all souls and that is how they progress? What did you experience that leads you to believe that? What do you mean by life cycles?

That is how they are ALLOWED to progress.

The actual "progress" or I prefer to call it "spiritual evolving" is entirely upon each and every soul.

Yes, "I", my soul was allowed to observe many soul's judgments. And even on my first unwanted "visit" during my drowning, I was judged and at the same time as God was explaining to me what "death" was, and my soul was diminishing, he was also showing me about next life cycle, or as most people call it "reincarnation". But in my case and many others, after the judgment they are returned to the SAME body/life to complete what they were put here for.


I believe that we all enter the spiritual realm after we die because we leave the physical realm, but as the book I quoted says, we will be on different levels of spiritual development after we die. We can progress and move up to the next levels as we progress spiritually but we will never retrogress. I guess you could say that heaven is at the top level.

That is what I believe. Did you discover this in some of your spiritual experiences?

I think whoever wrote it was SLIGHTLY mistaken.

We are all here on the physical universe realm to learn spiritual lessons to help us ALL spiritually evolve. It may take thousands or millions of years worth of life cycles for a soul to spiritually evolve enough to pass God's judgment and enter the spiritual universe/"Heaven".

You see, it's the SOUL that spiritually evolves. All starting out at the creation point, and being given proportionate physical "containers"/bodies. And as the soul spiritually evolves, are given ever larger physical bodies. Then after the "final" judgment will get to exist as a purely spiritual energy entity in "Heaven".

But even then ALL souls CONTINUE to spiritually evolve thru out all eternity. With even MORE 'judgments" along the way. And as each "judgment" is passed, another level of responsibility is given.

Is this what you saw or experienced in your spiritual experiences? This is very interesting. What you said about souls in the spiritual world helping out all the souls still in the physical worlds so that they can evolve aligns with my religious beliefs... For example, referring to holy souls who have passed on:

“The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

A bit cryptic and sounds like all this spiritual "help" is detached. But while some of the more advanced Deities can exert an influence in "guiding" an evolving soul, and a few other ways, although it's still energy draining and so cannot be maintained for long. But from what I've experienced it's more of a "hands on" approach. With individual spiritual entities trying to help those souls still on the physical worlds. Some people call them "angels" or "spiritual guides" working "behind the scenes" to offer help. With some people even learning of their existence and directly "communicating" with them, soul to soul.

What do you mean by that? o_O

Not sure if you didn't get it, or just joking.

It's a worn out "fantasy" movie theme where two twins or kindred spirits are separated at birth and each one given 1/2 of the same amulet, only to find each other later in life and find they have the other half of the amulet.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Thanks, I will try to find the time to read those...

I am certain that there are many books that depict the afterlife in more detail than Baha'u'llah did, but that does not mean that Baha'u'llah did not know more than He told us. ;)

Baha'u'llah wrote a lot about the soul, but not much about the afterlife...Baha’u’llah and Shoghi Effendi explained why we are not told more about the afterlife:

But if you get to understand, accept, and then learn how to use the true nature of your soul, you can experience and learn about the spiritual realm, which IS what you call the "afterlife", all on your own.

That's why I'm convinced God took so much care to make me understand all about my soul during my childhood NDE/OBE, as it's the gateway to experiencing and understanding everything spiritual. Every time I review my life, it always comes down to that most critical lesson as the whole defining factor of my entire life. And words cannot express how grateful I am for that.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Anyway, yes, the physical and spiritual universes/realms are completely separate. That's why I cannot help but marvel at how God made us "alive" at all. For while the physical and the spiritual are separate, and so while our souls can only exist in the spiritual universe/realm, he made our physical bodies that can only function and exist here, as elaborate interfaces for our souls to interact with the physical universe/realm without having any direct contact itself.
I am not sure where you got your information... I have seen what you have posted and I know you do not like religion but what you just said aligns with my religious beliefs. Note that the Baha’i Faith is nothing like the older religions such as Christianity except that we share the same spiritual truths which are eternal.
As to your "beyond which there is no coming back" comment, I'm not sure what you read about that.
I meant that once we go beyond the wall that separates life from death (separates the physical world from the spiritual world) we are permanently dead and we cannot come back to life, as those who had NDEs came back to life.
The only thing I can relate to on that is when on my original NDE/OBE, since I was way too young to understand what all was happening, everything was fully explained to me. And when God told me I was "dying" as soon as I wondered what that meant, he told me that it means that I would NEVER get to see another sunrise, feel the crispness of a nice spring morning, or feel the wind or sunshine upon my face, smell flowers, play outside, have birthday parties, or experience anything else I held dear in life. And as each one was stated, I was given the experience of each and the joy it gave me in my life. I could feel and experience them all in the most vivid manner imaginable. Then I was trying to think if I knew of a way back somehow. But was told in a loud booming voice that NO I could NOT EVER go back! And that once "it" (My life.) is gone "it" is gone FOREVER, and I would NEVER get "it" back!!!
{{{ This is what I was referring to above, not being able to come back after we have gone beyond the wall}}}
At that point the sum total of my existence was was filled with so much FEAR and overwhelming PAIN that it pierced to the very depths of my soul! It was unbearable! The sum total of my existence at that time was overwhelming fear/pain of facing that my existence would end. But quickly even that diminished as "I" was fading into nothingness, non existence, and didn't even have the energy to be fearful anymore. The last thing I remember is being filled with deep profound sadness and the thought "Oh well, I guess this is the end."
Then I was shocked beyond description when I found myself suddenly looking up into my fathers face and realizing that I was ALIVE, I was still ALIVE!!!

Now I don't know if that was part of the "reincarnation" process, or God was just showing me what "death" was, ever since then all I cared about is that I'm still alive.
It seems to me that God was showing you that once you died you would no longer have those things that you held so dear in the material world, and that is why you were afraid, but that is also why you were so happy to see your father’s face and realize you were still alive.

So did that experience make you appreciate life more? I have heard that is what those who had NDEs experience, a greater appreciation for life. But also many do not want to come back here and do so only because of their families and things they feel they have to do here, all the while knowing the spiritual world is far better than anything in the material world. I do not have to die to know that because it is part of my religious beliefs and I have strong faith.
This is a good topic that I think it best to take my time writing a reply separately, then copying it in at a later date. Because YES, I find it extremely, excruciatingly, hard to try explaining some of the spiritual experiences/concepts because it's so far outside of most everyone's experience. I often get frustrated trying to find ways to explain such things in some context they can relate to.
I write all my longer posts in Word documents and copy/paste them into the forum. I have them all organized by thread and poster and date.... I get so many posts so i have to be organized. I post on other forums as well, but not much anymore, since I do not have time.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That being said, I'm mainly on this forum website to debate with the Christians, and so have no quarrel with your beliefs. So long as you don't start slandering God as being this horrifically wrathful and demonic "god" like the Christians claim, then we're good.
Do you have a particular beef with Christians? I am just curious. o_O

I was never a Christian and have not read much of the Bible. Most of what I have learned comes from interacting with Christians on forums for about six years. From what I have learned, I do not pick up on a horrifically wrathful and demonic "god" but rather a Loving God... Am I missing something?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Back to this...

Before I put my foot in my mouth as the saying goes, what is your religion?

I don't want to say something to offend you, as I'm not too fond of religions in general so tend to vent from time to time.
My religion is the Baha’i Faith. You will not always find accurate information from a Google search because there are certain other religions such as Christianity and Islam that don’t like us, and they post false information on the internet, hoping unsuspecting readers will not know. There are also some disaffected Baha’is who dropped out and now post calumnies on the internet.... So it is best to ask a Baha’i if you want to know anything and we can point you to the official websites that have the accurate information... We are one of the most organized religions in the world.

Just a heads-up. ;)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Ok, so you do understand. Thank God for that!

So again, if what I TRY to articulate about them, please explain what you don't understand or ask questions.

That is how they are ALLOWED to progress.

The actual "progress" or I prefer to call it "spiritual evolving" is entirely upon each and every soul.

Yes, "I", my soul was allowed to observe many soul's judgments. And even on my first unwanted "visit" during my drowning, I was judged and at the same time as God was explaining to me what "death" was, and my soul was diminishing, he was also showing me about next life cycle, or as most people call it "reincarnation". But in my case and many others, after the judgment they are returned to the SAME body/life to complete what they were put here for.
I do believe that those who have NDEs are sent back to do work here or they make that choice, but I do not consider that reincarnation because they were never fully dead; they were between life and death. I do not believe in reincarnation, meaning I do not believe that those who die ever come back to earth and cycle through this life again. Rather, I believe that we remain in the spiritual world and our soul continues to progress for eternity. That could be likened to moving up into higher spheres towards heaven. I believe that spiritual evolving is on each soul but I do not know how souls progress.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

I am very curious about this judgment, what exactly do you mean by judgment? What did you experience?
I think whoever wrote it was SLIGHTLY mistaken.

We are all here on the physical universe realm to learn spiritual lessons to help us ALL spiritually evolve. It may take thousands or millions of years worth of life cycles for a soul to spiritually evolve enough to pass God's judgment and enter the spiritual universe/"Heaven".

You see, it's the SOUL that spiritually evolves. All starting out at the creation point, and being given proportionate physical "containers"/bodies. And as the soul spiritually evolves, are given ever larger physical bodies. Then after the "final" judgment will get to exist as a purely spiritual energy entity in "Heaven".

But even then ALL souls CONTINUE to spiritually evolve thru out all eternity. With even MORE 'judgments" along the way. And as each "judgment" is passed, another level of responsibility is given.
Some of this correlates with what I believe but some does not. Briefly, I believe that the physical body once dead remains dead and the soul goes to a spiritual realm and takes on a spiritual body made up of elements in that realm. In that realm the soul continues to progress spiritually. That would be akin to moving from the lower spheres to the higher spheres as they were described on my OP.

What is this “final judgment” and what are the judgments along the way? Is God making these judgments and if so how? How did you experience that or see it happen to others?
A bit cryptic and sounds like all this spiritual "help" is detached. But while some of the more advanced Deities can exert an influence in "guiding" an evolving soul, and a few other ways, although it's still energy draining and so cannot be maintained for long. But from what I've experienced it's more of a "hands on" approach. With individual spiritual entities trying to help those souls still on the physical worlds. Some people call them "angels" or "spiritual guides" working "behind the scenes" to offer help. With some people even learning of their existence and directly "communicating" with them, soul to soul.
If you will excuse my digression, that reminds me of that TV program Touched by an Angel. I loved that show and there were some similar show I cannot recall. In Baha’i parlance, angels are simply holy souls, and they can exist in the material world and in the spiritual world... I have one who came to y aid who is helping me right now... I told him he dropped down out of heaven and he turned up when I was at the complete end of my rope... there are people like that in this world, and then there are evil people.

I have read that it can be energy draining for an advanced soul on a higher level to go down to lower levels and assist souls who are less advanced, but I do not think that the advanced souls who assist souls in this world are drained of energy. I do not know how they assist them but somewhere in the Baha’i Writings it says that there is no real separation between the material world and the spiritual world and that the spiritual world is within this world, but I have never understood what that means. One way it is explained is that souls in the physical world affect souls in the spiritual world and vice versa. Souls in the spiritual world have more of an effect upon us than we have on them because they have more power once they are divested of the physical body which is like a bird (soul) being released from a cage (the body).
Not sure if you didn't get it, or just joking.
It's a worn out "fantasy" movie theme where two twins or kindred spirits are separated at birth and each one given 1/2 of the same amulet, only to find each other later in life and find they have the other half of the amulet.
No, I did not get it. I guess I did not understand how it was related to what I said about the material world and how I can dispense with it, all except animals and some people.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But if you get to understand, accept, and then learn how to use the true nature of your soul, you can experience and learn about the spiritual realm, which IS what you call the "afterlife", all on your own.
There are indications in the Writings of my religion that this is possible, that we can be living IN this world but not be OF this world... For example:

“Today, humanity is bowed down with trouble, sorrow and grief, no one escapes; the world is wet with tears; but, thank God, the remedy is at our doors. Let us turn our hearts away from the world of matter and live in the spiritual world! It alone can give us freedom! If we are hemmed in by difficulties we have only to call upon God, and by His great Mercy we shall be helped.................
When our thoughts are filled with the bitterness of this world, let us turn our eyes to the sweetness of God’s compassion and He will send us heavenly calm! If we are imprisoned in the material world, our spirit can soar into the Heavens and we shall be free indeed! .................
You see all around you proofs of the inadequacy of material things—how joy, comfort, peace and consolation are not to be found in the transitory things of the world. Is it not then foolishness to refuse to seek these treasures where they may be found? The doors of the spiritual Kingdom are open to all, and without is absolute darkness. ................
Thus, spirituality is the greatest of God’s gifts, and ‘Life Everlasting’ means ‘Turning to God’. May you, one and all, increase daily in spirituality, may you be strengthened in all goodness, may you be helped more and more by the Divine consolation, be made free by the Holy Spirit of God, and may the power of the Heavenly Kingdom live and work among you” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 110-112
That's why I'm convinced God took so much care to make me understand all about my soul during my childhood NDE/OBE, as it's the gateway to experiencing and understanding everything spiritual. Every time I review my life, it always comes down to that most critical lesson as the whole defining factor of my entire life. And words cannot express how grateful I am for that.
You are probably not the first person who has said that, but now I have a question that immediately came to mind... What about most people who never had an NDE or a spiritual experience? How do you think they can grow spiritually? How do you think they can find a defining factor for their lives as you have?
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
What about most people who never had an NDE or a spiritual experience?

We are at death's door all the time: the idea is to do what is necessary to survive for as long as possible so as to benefit from the 'goodies' of the planet Earth for after death there is nothing but Brahmaloka memory of God at best in heaven: is that something to look forward to. I doubt if it has attractions. So live like a God on planet Earth and see if you can get you to a grand old age. That is the ultimate spiritual goal.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We are at death's door all the time: the idea is to do what is necessary to survive for as long as possible so as to benefit from the 'goodies' of the planet Earth for after death there is nothing but Brahmaloka memory of God at best in heaven: is that something to look forward to. I doubt if it has attractions. So live like a God on planet Earth and see if you can get you to a grand old age. That is the ultimate spiritual goal.
I kind of see it the opposite way. I do not think we should live for the goodies in this world because they are vain and empty. That does not mean we cannot enjoy ourselves some, but what is there in this world that is so great? Not much really, compared to what lies ahead in the spiritual world.

"Bahá'u'lláh says that were we to have the proper vision to see the blessings of the other world we would not bear to endure one more hour of existence upon the earth. The reason why we are deprived of that vision is because otherwise no one would care to remain and the whole fabric of society will be destroyed.”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 22, 1932)

Lights of Guidance (second part)
I certainly would not want to spend eternity in this world, even if I could. The ultimate spiritual goal is to acquire spiritual qualities in this world and thereby prepare ourselves for our future life in the spiritual world, where we will spend all of eternity.
 
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