Marionnete, predestination, free will

[MixedMartialArts]

It’s occurred to me the endless back and forth volleys on these topics conclude with two main positions.

1. Free will exists otherwise what are we robots? What’s the point? And if a God exists why would he want robots? Either way we have free will to an extent

2. predestination exists which seems to be supported inadvertently by quantum physics… but however you conclude free will not existing you seem to accept that you’re a marionette to some extent

What I’ve not read much in the conversation is:
If we were all knowing beings, then predestination would seem silly a bit.
But as it is. As humans are. We know 100% we are not all knowing.

Therefor does it matter if free will exists or not? As the experiencer of our life, predestined or not, it will appear as if it was not, because we simply don’t know the future.

what am I missing here btw?
For the record I don’t believe in free will.

And even though I don’t believe in it, life is experienced as if it exists.

 

[Left Coast]

It’s occurred to me the endless back and forth volleys on these topics conclude with two main positions.

1. Free will exists otherwise what are we robots? What’s the point? And if a God exists why would he want robots? Either way we have free will to an extent

2. predestination exists which seems to be supported inadvertently by quantum physics… but however you conclude free will not existing you seem to accept that you’re a marionette to some extent

What I’ve not read much in the conversation is:
If we were all knowing beings, then predestination would seem silly a bit.
But as it is. As humans are. We know 100% we are not all knowing.

Therefor does it matter if free will exists or not? As the experiencer of our life, predestined or not, it will appear as if it was not, because we simply don’t know the future.

what am I missing here btw?
For the record I don’t believe in free will.

And even though I don’t believe in it, life is experienced as if it exists.

I think "free will" is a misnomer. We are not "free" to grow wings and fly away. A toddler is not "free" to solve calculus problems. There are limits to what we're capable of. Yet we do have some degree of choice or agency to choose between limited sets of options available to us. Without acknowledgement of that at some level, morality becomes a joke.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

It’s occurred to me the endless back and forth volleys on these topics conclude with two main positions.

1. Free will exists otherwise what are we robots? What’s the point? And if a God exists why would he want robots? Either way we have free will to an extent

2. predestination exists which seems to be supported inadvertently by quantum physics… but however you conclude free will not existing you seem to accept that you’re a marionette to some extent

What I’ve not read much in the conversation is:
If we were all knowing beings, then predestination would seem silly a bit.
But as it is. As humans are. We know 100% we are not all knowing.

Therefor does it matter if free will exists or not? As the experiencer of our life, predestined or not, it will appear as if it was not, because we simply don’t know the future.

what am I missing here btw?
For the record I don’t believe in free will.

And even though I don’t believe in it, life is experienced as if it exists.

I agree. The illusion of freewill is all that matters. It seems God wanted to make the strings of himself invisible to him, as a good puppeteer would.

 

[MixedMartialArts]

I think "free will" is a misnomer. We are not "free" to grow wings and fly away. A toddler is not "free" to solve calculus problems. There are limits to what we're capable of. Yet we do have some degree of choice or agency to choose between limited sets of options available to us. Without acknowledgement of that at some level, morality becomes a joke.

You say we have a degree of choice.
What does it really matter? Even our choices, if predestined, we’d never know. For all intents and purposes it’s as if free will is alive and well as you describe it.

To me the deeper discussion is when we discuss what are the real ramifications if predestination was our reality.
It’s a much more interesting rabbit hole (to me)

otherwise the free will discussion means very little, as you say, pick black socks or blue, it doesn’t really matter.

Thank you for your feedback

 

[Left Coast]

You say we have a degree of choice.
What does it really matter? Even our choices, if predestined, we’d never know. For all intents and purposes it’s as if free will is alive and well as you describe it.

To me the deeper discussion is when we discuss what are the real ramifications if predestination was our reality.
It’s a much more interesting rabbit hole (to me)

otherwise the free will discussion means very little, as you say, pick black socks or blue, it doesn’t really matter.

Thank you for your feedback

This is sort of like the question of whether we're living in the Matrix. If by all appearances we aren't, and we have no way of knowing if we are...does it matter?

We have agency to a degree that is useful for shaping behavior toward desired ends. And to hold people accountable for harmful actions they take against others. That's sufficient, I think.

 

[Heyo]

It’s occurred to me the endless back and forth volleys on these topics conclude with two main positions.

1. Free will exists otherwise what are we robots? What’s the point? And if a God exists why would he want robots? Either way we have free will to an extent

2. predestination exists which seems to be supported inadvertently by quantum physics… but however you conclude free will not existing you seem to accept that you’re a marionette to some extent

What I’ve not read much in the conversation is:
If we were all knowing beings, then predestination would seem silly a bit.
But as it is. As humans are. We know 100% we are not all knowing.

Therefor does it matter if free will exists or not? As the experiencer of our life, predestined or not, it will appear as if it was not, because we simply don’t know the future.

what am I missing here btw?
For the record I don’t believe in free will.

And even though I don’t believe in it, life is experienced as if it exists.

1. Quantum physics does not support predestination. Quantum events are random thus precluding predestination.
2. Even without predestination, Free Will is not a given. Randomness is not freedom.
3. There is an emergent property I call Free Choice. It is the illusion of Free Will but indistinguishable from it as long as one doesn't ask at what point freedom enters the decision making process.
4. Welcome to RF.

 

[MixedMartialArts]

1. Quantum physics does not support predestination. Quantum events are random thus precluding predestination.
2. Even without predestination, Free Will is not a given. Randomness is not freedom.
3. There is an emergent property I call Free Choice. It is the illusion of Free Will but indistinguishable from it as long as one doesn't ask at what point freedom enters the decision making process.
4. Welcome to RF.

Thank you

When I say Quantum seems to inadvertently support… I’m openly stretching here, but it comes from opinions like:
Does Quantum Mechanics Rule Out Free Will?

I am not qualified to make a statement of certainty.

With that said, it still baffles me, both sides of the coin can’t seem to get passed the “volley” aspect if we do or don’t have “fill in the blank”

Here’s the pros to everything being predestined, down to wiping out tushies:

- the possibility of a perfect creator articulating any and all things to come.

I feel that’s pretty potent to discuss.

it also suggests purpose to it all, on a very large scale.

we never seem to get to these conversations cause we stay stuck on one side or the other of the fence.

I’m totally cool with discussing both sides. I just find if free choice, free will or whichever name we give exists, it eliminates any benefits a perfect intelligent creator offers to be in control of it all.

I realize that’s off topic slightly to my OP, but I do find myself wondering why so few discuss this possibility just for fun to see if anything meaningful comes out of it.

I find people dig their heals in based on “their position” and miss the fruit of opened minded dialogue despite our entrenched positions.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

What I’ve not read much in the conversation is:
If we were all knowing beings, then predestination would seem silly a bit.
But as it is. As humans are. We know 100% we are not all knowing.

If we don't know the future, but have no free-will, then our not knowing the future seems like it is somewhat of an illusion - what is there in you, to imagine often, that many things could happen. The past is what there is, that can't unhappen, and the future is to happen. So what is there, in you, to imagine that there is something different about future and past. And if that thing is totally redundant, then what exactly is it. It would be like a non-folding end corner of reality, that cannot see accurately how the rest of reality supposedly works

 

[Nakosis]

It’s occurred to me the endless back and forth volleys on these topics conclude with two main positions.

1. Free will exists otherwise what are we robots? What’s the point? And if a God exists why would he want robots? Either way we have free will to an extent

2. predestination exists which seems to be supported inadvertently by quantum physics… but however you conclude free will not existing you seem to accept that you’re a marionette to some extent

What I’ve not read much in the conversation is:
If we were all knowing beings, then predestination would seem silly a bit.
But as it is. As humans are. We know 100% we are not all knowing.

Therefor does it matter if free will exists or not? As the experiencer of our life, predestined or not, it will appear as if it was not, because we simply don’t know the future.

what am I missing here btw?
For the record I don’t believe in free will.

And even though I don’t believe in it, life is experienced as if it exists.

First, I don't believe the future is determined by the physical past. Like billiard balls on a pool table determine to roll across the table depend on the angle and speed the cue ball was hit. I believe that abstract things unrelated to the physical past can affect the future.

Second, I define free will as the ability to do want you want to do. Sometimes I can exercise my free will and do what I want to do. Sometime circumstances happen that prevent me from doing what I want to do.

Thirdly, I suppose, since I'm an atheist, nothing in my view about how the universe works uses God in the equation.

I know some define "free will" in such a way that it can't exist per definition then argue "it" doesn't exist. Great, you managed to define something out of existence, congratulation. Not much point, IMO, debating a nonsensical concept.

 

[osgart]

Define free? Some say free is doing whatever you want whenever you want to. Some say free is being totally non attached to wants or desires. Some say free is the total ability to do otherwise than what you have done. Some say free is that it is all your choice as to who you become and who you are as a person. Some might say freedom is innocence and a heart only for virtues sake; or to be without vice. Some might say that true love is freedom. Some might say that when your wants and desires are only worthy and healthy than you are experiencing true freedom. Some would say free is being master of your own heart and will. Some might say free is being totally responsible with your actions, and intentions. Some say free is being unslaved from your situation, environment and other people. Some say love is free.

My point is that many definitions of freedom are illusions of freedom, or they are not freedom in any worthwhile sense. So there is no point in discussing free will until you establish the meaning of freedom. Some definitions of free might be meaningful and real and people are just unaware they have freedoms. Some people might be lacking knowledge of wisdom that would be able to set them free.

Freedom could be real, and people just ain't recognizing or realizing it.

Anyway freedom is not something that people should neglect or give up on because there are freedoms that some people perversely want to take away from you. But I would agree that there are freedoms that people simply don't have. There are freedoms that are not totally free. There's also freedoms that are worth dying for if need be.

I think this is all important to whether there is free will or not.

 

[MixedMartialArts]

If we don't know the future, but have no free-will, then our not knowing the future seems like it is somewhat of an illusion - what is there in you, to imagine often, that many things could happen. The past is what there is, that can't unhappen, and the future is to happen. So what is there, in you, to imagine that there is something different about future and past. And if that thing is totally redundant, then what exactly is it. It would be like a non-folding end corner of reality, that cannot see accurately how the rest of reality supposedly works

I believe your question is why bother experiencing anything under such circumstances?
Correct me if I’m wrong.

I approach that question by exploring [ I ] as a whole individual, perhaps some sort of divine type creation, have things to learn.
It might be the things we have to learn require things to unfold as they have been and will be doing.

And perhaps it has nothing to do with free will or predestination or our opinion, at all, but rather it was about our [becoming]… of something we don’t quite understand yet.

I suppose what I’m saying is, this line of fabricated reasoning I’ve offered accounts for having no free will and not knowing the future…

I could be rambling of course

 

[MixedMartialArts]

First, I don't believe the future is determined by the physical past. Like billiard balls on a pool table determine to roll across the table depend on the angle and speed the cue ball was hit. I believe that abstract things unrelated to the physical past can affect the future.

Second, I define free will as the ability to do want you want to do. Sometimes I can exercise my free will and do what I want to do. Sometime circumstances happen that prevent me from doing what I want to do.

Thirdly, I suppose, since I'm an atheist, nothing in my view about how the universe works uses God in the equation.

I know some define "free will" in such a way that it can't exist per definition then argue "it" doesn't exist. Great, you managed to define something out of existence, congratulation. Not much point, IMO, debating a nonsensical concept.

it’s only my opinion below…

I think even atheists learn tons when wrestling with concepts that’s include God, certain morality, infinite etc

There’s plenty to learn and grow from as a person crossing the fence intellectually etc

obviously your choice, mean no offense.

 

[MixedMartialArts]

Define free? Some say free is doing whatever you want whenever you want to. Some say free is being totally non attached to wants or desires. Some say free is the total ability to do otherwise than what you have done. Some say free is that it is all your choice as to who you become and who you are as a person. Some might say freedom is innocence and a heart only for virtues sake; or to be without vice. Some might say that true love is freedom. Some might say that when your wants and desires are only worthy and healthy than you are experiencing true freedom. Some would say free is being master of your own heart and will. Some might say free is being totally responsible with your actions, and intentions. Some say free is being unslaved from your situation, environment and other people. Some say love is free.

My point is that many definitions of freedom are illusions of freedom, or they are not freedom in any worthwhile sense. So there is no point in discussing free will until you establish the meaning of freedom. Some definitions of free might be meaningful and real and people are just unaware they have freedoms. Some people might be lacking knowledge of wisdom that would be able to set them free.

Freedom could be real, and people just ain't recognizing or realizing it.

Anyway freedom is not something that people should neglect or give up on because there are freedoms that some people perversely want to take away from you. But I would agree that there are freedoms that people simply don't have. There are freedoms that are not totally free. There's also freedoms that are worth dying for if need be.

I think this is all important to whether there is free will or not.

In the context of free will, free implies and is defined or characterized by a human having autonomy of sets of choices, behaviors, beliefs etc… all towards the freedom, ability and agency to achieve a state or place…

Not Freedom to break physics or do impossible things of course

if one adopts that as free will and believe in free will, then they believe they have a lot of agency over their life. They and they alone have ultimate control of their life. No higher power.

of course many who believe in God also believe in free will, but I feel this is quite problematic to square away logically…

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I believe your question is why bother experiencing anything under such circumstances?
Correct me if I’m wrong.

I approach that question by exploring [ I ] as a whole individual, perhaps some sort of divine type creation, have things to learn.
It might be the things we have to learn require things to unfold as they have been and will be doing.

And perhaps it has nothing to do with free will or predestination or our opinion, at all, but rather it was about our [becoming]… of something we don’t quite understand yet.

I suppose what I’m saying is, this line of fabricated reasoning I’ve offered accounts for having no free will and not knowing the future…

I could be rambling of course

One could imagine two things: one is myself, and the other is a marble statue of myself. One is rock, and one is me. Inside the rock, there is still reality, folding upon itself, and changing. But in me, there is something that is more like a witness, and director. Or is there? For if there be no free-will, there is less distance, if any, between the I-ness of myself, and the reality center within the marble statue of myself

 

[The Hammer]

I agree. The illusion of freewill is all that matters. It seems God wanted to make the strings of himself invisible to him, as a good puppeteer would.

Freewill exists. And so does Fate.

A paradox of the highest order

 

[RestlessSoul]

The greatest freedom I have personally known, has come when I have managed to align my own will with what I believe to be God’s will for me. If I follow my own desires, I am enslaved by them. If genuinely seek to do what God desires, I am liberated.

 

[MixedMartialArts]

The greatest freedom I have personally known, has come when I have managed to align my own will with what I believe to be God’s will for me. If I follow my own desires, I am enslaved by them. If genuinely seek to do what God desires, I am liberated.

I’m with ya