Mary mother of God

[katiemygirl]

If you interpret scripture, as you do, then you are a teacher with authority/bishop/elder.

Paul was not married so what's your point?

Catholic priests of the Roman/Latin rite are not married by choice. If you want to be a married priest then you become an Eastern rite priest in communion with Rome.

Peter was married, and nowhere in the Scriptures are priests forbidden to marry. As a matter of fact, Paul warned how some would depart from the faith and do precisely what the RCC has done.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 1 Tim. 4:1-3

Are you saying that only elders can interpret the Scriptures? I hope not because we are all responsible to read and study the word of God. Notice that the Berean Jews were not elders. They were simply Christians, and they were considered noble because they examined the Scriptures daily to see if what the apostle Paul said was true. This blows your idea out of the water that only the elders/or bishops can interpret the Scriptures.

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
(Acts 17:11)

I would agree that the job of elders is to keep false teaching out of the congregation, and they need to know the Scriptures to do that. That would be part of their qualifications. But each of us is responsible to work out our own salvation. That requires individual study of the Scriptures. I am very blessed to be under the authority of some very knowledgable overseers. They have taught me much, but as much as I love and trust them, I am still responsible to search the Scriptures to be sure that everything these godly men say is Scripturally sound.

One more thing I'd like you to consider. If no one ever challenged doctrines which were being taught by a congregations elders, these men could run amok, teaching all sorts of false doctrine. This is what happened in the RCC. The powers that be convinced its followers that only THEY could interpret the Scriptures. The JW's Watchtower organization has done the same exact thing. They teach that only the Governing Body can interpret the Scriptures, and look how this organization has ended up.

 

[katiemygirl]

A reminder of the original thread. Mary the Mother of God

The false doctrine of Mary the mother of God a trinity.

I know this is not going to go over well with the rc's but these are sincere thoughts on my part and should not be considered hatred for any rc person.

The false doctrine of Mary the mother of God a trinity contradicts the word of God.

The words "Mary mother of God" are not in any verse of scripture; therefore they cannot be every word of God that is purified seven times ( Psa 12:6-7) .

YHWH-YaH Elohim is a Spirit. YHWH-YaH has no beginning or end. He always was and always will be; therefore YHWH-YaH has no mother Mary.

No scripture verse shows any apostles praying a rosary to Mary nor do any believers in scripture pray a rosary to Mary.
.
No scriptures declare YHWH-YaH God in heaven or on earth declaring to Mary "you are my beloved mother."

No scriptures declare the Holy Spirit saying "this is my beloved wife".

ACCORDING TO THE FALSE DOCTRINE OF TRINITY
If Mary was the mother of God the Father, and the mother of God the Son Jesus, and the mother of God the holy spirit that impregnated Mary making her the wife-mother of God.

If Mary and God the Holy Spirit were not married then it would be considered by God as adultery.

For Mary to be the mother of God means Mary had to exist before God existed and it means Mary formed- created God so that God could create Adam and Eve.

Do you think Mary mothered the Father God and the Son God and the Holy Ghost God? If not, which God do you think Mary mothered as the mother of God Or do you think Mary mothered all three?

What would you think of a mother who tells her son that he is her husband, her son and his own father.

If God the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary that makes Mary the wife of God the holy spirit, but not the wife of the Father God nor the wife of God her Son.

Also if Mary birthed God ( the Father ) by God ( the Holy Spirit who impregnated Mary ) that would make Mary the mother of God the Father and the wife of God the Holy Spirit and then again when Christ is born Mary becomes the mother of God the Son: thereby making Mary twice a mother of God and once the wife of God the Holy Spirit.The last mention of Mary in scripture is (Acts 1:14 KJV) These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Mary is called mother of Jesus by Luke. Luke would have gotten the term " mother of Jesus" from Paul or from the churches of Judaea. (Gal 1:22 KJV) And ( I Saul/Paul) was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:

The apostle Paul wrote 13 epistles and never calls Mary the mother of God neither do any of the other apostles.

willyah

Excellent post! I know I've gotten off topic, but the RCC is so filled with false teaching, it's hard to ignore. I will try to get focused on the thread topic.

 

[kjv4me2you]

and here I go again...lol...
The Catholic Church would never say they are the only ones who can understand Scripture. Proof is the fact that many Christians out there have come to many of the same conclusions as the Church. There are not a lot verses in the Bible where the Church says...this is what that verse means...see how many verses are actually quoted in our Catechism. Everything else is up for grabs, but it does have to be understood within the guiding doctrines (which is something we all do within our minds, whether we call them doctrines or not).

The only guide for the believer:
(John 16:13 KJV) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

willyah

 

[kjv4me2you]

Excellent post! I know I've gotten off topic, but the RCC is so filled with false teaching, it's hard to ignore. I will try to get focused on the thread topic.

I also responded to some off thread posts.
I was speaking to myself to stay on post as much as any else. I will try to focus also on thread topic.

 

[kjv4me2you]

Peter was married, and nowhere in the Scriptures are priests forbidden to marry. As a matter of fact, Paul warned how some would depart from the faith and do precisely what the RCC has done.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 1 Tim. 4:1-3

Are you saying that only elders can interpret the Scriptures? I hope not because we are all responsible to read and study the word of God. Notice that the Berean Jews were not elders. They were simply Christians, and they were considered noble because they examined the Scriptures daily to see if what the apostle Paul said was true. This blows your idea out of the water that only the elders/or bishops can interpret the Scriptures.

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
(Acts 17:11)

I would agree that the job of elders is to keep false teaching out of the congregation, and they need to know the Scriptures to do that. That would be part of their qualifications. But each of us is responsible to work out our own salvation. That requires individual study of the Scriptures. I am very blessed to be under the authority of some very knowledgable overseers. They have taught me much, but as much as I love and trust them, I am still responsible to search the Scriptures to be sure that everything these godly men say is Scripturally sound.

One more thing I'd like you to consider. If no one ever challenged doctrines which were being taught by a congregations elders, these men could run amok, teaching all sorts of false doctrine. This is what happened in the RCC. The powers that be convinced its followers that only THEY could interpret the Scriptures. The JW's Watchtower organization has done the same exact thing. They teach that only the Governing Body can interpret the Scriptures, and look how this organization has ended up.

katiemygirl, post:
One more thing I'd like you to consider. If no one ever challenged doctrines which were being taught by a congregations elders, these men could run amok, teaching all sorts of false doctrine. This is what happened in the RCC. The powers that be convinced its followers that only THEY could interpret the Scriptures. The JW's Watchtower organization has done the same exact thing. They teach that only the Governing Body can interpret the Scriptures, and look how this organization has ended up.

Well said Katie

willyah

 

[katiemygirl]

="Wharton, post: 4184249, member: 56096"]It's a sacrifice in the eternal now. It is not repeated over and over. It's a vehicle for each individual to tie into the eternal now. Jesus did say that WHENEVER you do this, do it in memory of me. Which meant that it should be repeated. Do you think he would leave out future generations?

There is nothing in the Scriptures about the eternal now. And nowhere in Scripture is the Lord's Supper called a sacrifice. Jesus asked us to remember Him by sharing the bread and wine as a reminder of His suffering body and shed blood on the cross until He comes again. So yes, we need to be sharing the Lord's Supper repeatedly.

 

[katiemygirl]

St Ignatius uses the term Catholic Church in 110AD, long before the bible was complied.

8 Flee from schism as the source of mischief. You should all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ did the Father. Follow, too, the presbytery as you would the apostles; and respect the deacons as you would God’s law. Nobody must do anything that has to do with the Church without the bishop’s approval. You should regard that Eucharist as valid which is celebrated either by the bishop or by someone he authorizes. Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. Without the bishop’s supervision, no baptisms or love feasts are permitted. On the other hand, whatever he approves pleases God as well. In that way everything you do will be on the safe side and valid.

Wharton, it is my understanding that catholic simply means universal. I think Ignatius was thinking of the church in that sense, which there would be nothing wrong with imho. But there is no Roman catholic church in the Bible. The church in the NT was called church of God, body of Christ, bride of Christ, church of Christ, etc. Imo, we should call the church our Lord died for a name that has His name attached to it.

 

[Unification]

Yes, that's called succession.

Wrong and wrong. Widowed bishops could not remarry. Celibacy is NOT a doctrine, it is a discipline, and there are some married priests in the Latin rite. Most of them are Protestant ministers who have come home.
1 Tim. 3:2 - Paul instructs that bishops must be married only once. Many Protestants use this verse to prove that the Church's celibacy law is in error. But they are mistaken because this verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church's Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.
Elders (priests) were never appointed by the congregation. Only in Protestantism can a potential minister be "hired" by a board of directors, essentially a lesser authority than the one they hire, which makes little sense. Furthermore, there is not one instance in the NT where any priest or bishop is appointed by the congregation. The office of bishop, priest or deacon is CONFERED by the laying on of hands by other bishops. There are dozens of scriptures confirming this.

That is a half truth. True, the elders had to be virtuous, but they got their training via oral tradition, not entirely from Paul's letters. There was no Bible at the time and few people could read. Paul's letters were generally accepted by 130 A.D., and quotes from them as scripture are very rare. Hebrews was not universally accepted as scripture until the 4rth century.


The Bible came from the Church, a church did not come from the bible.


Yes, it is in the Bible, and I have posted them repeatedly. You just ignore my posts and repeat the same idiocy.

The RCC gave you your Bible.


I don't know if this is hate speech or profound ignorance on your part.


This proves you ignore my posts. You came up with the same LIE in post #79 here. Either you have a reading comprehension problem or you are too proud to take correction. I answered your LIE in post #80 here, and here you are repeating the same LIE. This is habitual with you.

The only time the bible speaks of literal marriage between a guy and a girl is in 1Corinthians7. A widow, scripturally is also not who you think it is.

 

[Unification]

There is nothing in the Scriptures about the eternal now. And nowhere in Scripture is the Lord's Supper called a sacrifice. Jesus asked us to remember Him by sharing the bread and wine as a reminder of His suffering body and shed blood on the cross until He comes again. So yes, we need to be sharing the Lord's Supper repeatedly.

Vanity under the sun.

 

[katiemygirl]

The only guide for the believer:
(John 16:13 KJV) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

willyah

Amen!

If someone is honestly seeking the truth, and willing to let go of his/her own views of religion, the Holy Spirit will guide that person to it.

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. Mt. 7:7

But sadly, people want to twist the Scriptures to meet their theology. Instead of seeking the truth of God's word, we look for verses to validate the beliefs we hold dearly. That is something we need to ask our heavenly Father for help with. Lord, lead us to your truth and your will, not ours!

 

[chlotilde]

kjv4me2you said: ↑
THISTHREAD IS ABOUT MARY THE MOTHER OF JESUS BEING THE MOTHER OF GOD. PERHAPS WE SHOULD RETURN TO DISCUSSING IT.

Okay, I'm game, because I don't think anyone ever did answer you WHY do Catholics believe XYZ about Mary? I'll give you my answer, in my own personal words even!, lol. But give me some time here. I'll try to get back to you soon! I have a few other more important things I am dealing with.

I'm back...and I hope kjv4me2you finds this...because this thread has gotten so long I can't find previous posts.


First off, that expression, Mother of God…predates the Bible. What do I mean when I say this…I mean…Christianity started with Jesus, not with a Bible.

So, Although, one may turn only to the Bible to understand Christianity, do not expect the Catholic (and others) to turn only to the Bible to try to understand Christianity.


Mary was the mother of Jesus, Jesus is God…therefore Mary is the Mother of God…the logic seems simple to me
….until one thinks about what does it mean to be A Mother? Sure, I can easily point to all that “frou frou stuff” that means A mother, that has LOVE to the nth degree, because who doesn’t see that that kinda Love means to be patient and kind and etc. Mary had just that kinda love with Jesus. Everytime she got to kiss his boo-boo, or catch him in a hug as he ran across a field is a way I wish I could have done to worship God.

But lets talk the nitty gritty! What does it mean biologically to be a mother. It means giving your DNA to your baby. And we believe Mary gave her DNA to Jesus because we don’t believe he magically poofed into her womb. But is who you are simply DNA? No. You are also a soul. So Jesus is also more than just the DNA that Mary contributed. His soul is Divine. So saying Mother of God does not mean Mary made God. Mary’s soul is not divine.

 

[chlotilde]

. What do I mean when I say this…I mean…Christianity started with Jesus, not with a Bible.
.

want to hear something that will really blow your mind...Catholics believe the Bible came from the traditions of men. Those men were the early Christians.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

From islamic view the terms "mother of God" and " son of God" are blasphemous words that can only be used by polytheists. A person who follows footsteps of Abraham can never use such terms.

 

[katiemygirl]

I'm back...and I hope kjv4me2you finds this...because this thread has gotten so long I can't find previous posts.


First off, that expression, Mother of God…predates the Bible. What do I mean when I say this…I mean…Christianity started with Jesus, not with a Bible.

So, Although, one may turn only to the Bible to understand Christianity, do not expect the Catholic (and others) to turn only to the Bible to try to understand Christianity.


Mary was the mother of Jesus, Jesus is God…therefore Mary is the Mother of God…the logic seems simple to me
….until one thinks about what does it mean to be A Mother? Sure, I can easily point to all that “frou frou stuff” that means A mother, that has LOVE to the nth degree, because who doesn’t see that that kinda Love means to be patient and kind and etc. Mary had just that kinda love with Jesus. Everytime she got to kiss his boo-boo, or catch him in a hug as he ran across a field is a way I wish I could have done to worship God.

But lets talk the nitty gritty! What does it mean biologically to be a mother. It means giving your DNA to your baby. And we believe Mary gave her DNA to Jesus because we don’t believe he magically poofed into her womb. But is who you are simply DNA? No. You are also a soul. So Jesus is also more than just the DNA that Mary contributed. His soul is Divine. So saying Mother of God does not mean Mary made God. Mary’s soul is not divine.

Hey Chlotilde. Nice to see you are back.

If something we say is offensive to others, then shouldn't we refrain from saying it, particularly if that something was never something that was commanded by God to say in the first place? So why do it if it hurts people? Shouldn't we all be striving for unity rather than division? Just sayin...

 

[katiemygirl]

want to hear something that will really blow your mind...Catholics believe the Bible came from the traditions of men. Those men were the early Christians.

Do catholics understand that those traditions, which the apostles passed on, came from Jesus, and not men? And do catholics understand that all of those traditions were recorded in 27 different books?

 

[chlotilde]

Hey Chlotilde. Nice to see you are back.

If something we say is offensive to others, then shouldn't we refrain from saying it, particularly if that something was never something that was commanded by God to say in the first place? So why do it if it hurts people? Shouldn't we all be striving for unity rather than division? Just sayin...

what people should I be worried about offending? To say Jesus is God (and there is nowhere in the Bible that commands me to say that) might offend some people, even some people who call themselves Christian. It definitely offends the Muslim. But I do understand what you mean. And there are people who chose to practice their faith very privately, and maybe for just that reason. And believe it or not, Catholics do talk amongst themselves about this topic.

 

[chlotilde]

Do catholics understand that those traditions, which the apostles passed on, came from Jesus, and not men? And do catholics understand that all of those traditions were recorded in 27 different books?

in what way do you mean, "They came from Jesus", because there is Tradition that predates Jesus. We do not believe Jesus threw out the old testament.
We would say Divine Tradition comes from God, either through his written words in the Bible or through the oral teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

 

[4consideration]

The false doctrine of Mary the mother of God a trinity.

I know this is not going to go over well with the rc's but these are sincere thoughts on my part and should not be considered hatred for any rc person.

The false doctrine of Mary the mother of God a trinity contradicts the word of God.

The words "Mary mother of God" are not in any verse of scripture; therefore they cannot be every word of God that is purified seven times ( Psa 12:6-7) .


YHWH-YaH Elohim is a Spirit. YHWH-YaH has no beginning or end. He always was and always will be; therefore YHWH-YaH has no mother Mary.

No scripture verse shows any apostles praying a rosary to Mary nor do any believers in scripture pray a rosary to Mary.
.
No scriptures declare YHWH-YaH God in heaven or on earth declaring to Mary "you are my beloved mother."

No scriptures declare the Holy Spirit saying "this is my beloved wife".

ACCORDING TO THE FALSE DOCTRINE OF TRINITY
If Mary was the mother of God the Father, and the mother of God the Son Jesus, and the mother of God the holy spirit that impregnated Mary making her the wife-mother of God.

If Mary and God the Holy Spirit were not married then it would be considered by God as adultery.

For Mary to be the mother of God means Mary had to exist before God existed and it means Mary formed- created God so that God could create Adam and Eve.

Do you think Mary mothered the Father God and the Son God and the Holy Ghost God? If not, which God do you think Mary mothered as the mother of God Or do you think Mary mothered all three?

What would you think of a mother who tells her son that he is her husband, her son and his own father.

If God the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary that makes Mary the wife of God the holy spirit, but not the wife of the Father God nor the wife of God her Son.

Also if Mary birthed God ( the Father ) by God ( the Holy Spirit who impregnated Mary ) that would make Mary the mother of God the Father and the wife of God the Holy Spirit and then again when Christ is born Mary becomes the mother of God the Son: thereby making Mary twice a mother of God and once the wife of God the Holy Spirit.

The last mention of Mary in scripture is (Acts 1:14 KJV) These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Mary is called mother of Jesus by Luke. Luke would have gotten the term " mother of Jesus" from Paul or from the churches of Judaea. (Gal 1:22 KJV) And ( I Saul/Paul) was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:

The apostle Paul wrote 13 epistles and never calls Mary the mother of God neither do any of the other apostles.

Where exactly are you seeing Mary called "the Mother of God?" My emphasis is on what seems to me to be your own addition of the word "the" in your reference to the phrase "Mother of God," as in the Hail Mary prayer "...Holy Mary, Mother of God..."

Do you see somewhere that Catholics actually tend toward adding that article "the" in reference to Mary? I've been wracking my brain trying to remember...and it's been a long time for me, since I haven't considered myself Catholic for many years, but I just don't recall when I was attending Catholic school as a child that Mary was being referred to as "the" Mother of God, as in necessitating existing prior to God.

Whether or not a person believes in the Trinity, and/or Jesus being Divine, the word "of" still also indicates sourced from, caused by, sent from, etc. Of | Define Of at Dictionary.com

So...the way I see it, if it is inaccurate and wrong to say Mary is the "Mother of God," I think one would have to take a position that there is some other being, entity, or God capable of creating or sending Mary to earth.

 

[Wharton]

Peter was married, and nowhere in the Scriptures are priests forbidden to marry. As a matter of fact, Paul warned how some would depart from the faith and do precisely what the RCC has done.

Did not Paul recommend celibacy first? So where are you going with this?

You've been told how many times that celibacy is a discipline in the Roman rite. Do you comprehend what has been posted on this matter by more than one poster or are you too filled with hatred to see the truth? If you want a married priest then find an eastern rite church that is in communion with the pope or a Roman rite local church that has accepted former married Lutheran and Anglican priests into the fold. That should make you happy and solve your married priest problem.

Yes, the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have married priests.

Since you can choose the rite you wish to worship under and where you worship in the Catholic Church, your problem no longer exists.

 

[Wharton]

Wharton, it is my understanding that catholic simply means universal. I think Ignatius was thinking of the church in that sense, which there would be nothing wrong with imho. But there is no Roman catholic church in the Bible. The church in the NT was called church of God, body of Christ, bride of Christ, church of Christ, etc. Imo, we should call the church our Lord died for a name that has His name attached to it.

Understand how the church was set up from its beginning. All churches are particular churches headed by a bishop. You follow the bishop that heads your particular church. I don't have to obey a bishop in an adjoining diocese. If a bishop in Alaska says that due to the bad weather, mass attendance on Sunday is not obligatory and I'm in Florida, I can't use that as an excuse not to attend Mass.

The Catholic Church is composed of thousands of particular churches, one of which is the Church of Christ. All those churches mentioned in the NT headed by a bishop, the Church at Jerusalem, Ephesus, Smyrna, Rome etc are particular churches inside the Catholic Church. The church is made universal by all of the churches being in communion with the bishop of Rome since they are not in direct communion/communication with each other. And that's the way it was in the early church and that's the way it is today.