Mary?

[Truth_Faith13]

It is indeed not unusual in the lower orders and they do not need to be hermaphrodites... It does however happen in larger species.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6196225.stm


And in an unproven case to humans


http://www.theolarts.org/parthenogenesis.html



As people are never actually looking out for parthenogenesis it might simply be very rare, but clearly not impossible and is more likely to happen to sexually active people as there are more of them, so would be even less likely to be noticed.

Its interesting how the due date of the virgin bith of the lizard is around christmas!!

 

[Runlikethewind]

Gods born of virgins was a common theme in many early religions, Xianity being no exception. Of course, it is impossible, and made up - i.e a myth.

I wouldn't say that it is impossible in the strictest sense of the word. If my biology is correct there is such a thing as asexually reproduction. I grant that asexual reproduction mostly happens in bacteria and other microscopic organisms and is very rare in macroscopic multicellular organisms. But asexual reproduction does happen everyday and it could be accurately described as a virgin birth. I am not saying that Jesus was the result of asexual mitosis only that such a thing, although very very very very improbable and unlikely in humans, is not biologically impossible in the strictest sense of the word. All I am trying to point out is that however unlikely and improbable a virgin birth in humans might be, biologically it could be possible since asexual reproduction does happen. So to say that it is wholly impossible is not entirely accurate in the strictest sense of the word.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I wouldn't say that it is impossible in the strictest sense of the word. If my biology is correct there is such a thing as asexually reproduction. I grant that asexual reproduction mostly happens in bacteria and other microscopic organisms and is very rare in macroscopic multicellular organisms. But asexual reproduction does happen everyday and it could be accurately described as a virgin birth. I am not saying that Jesus was the result of asexual mitosis only that such a thing, although very very very very improbable and unlikely in humans, is not biologically impossible in the strictest sense of the word. All I am trying to point out is that however unlikely and improbable a virgin birth in humans might be, biologically it could be possible since asexual reproduction does happen. So to say that it is wholly impossible is not entirely accurate in the strictest sense of the word.

Humans can have virgin biths (now I have read some of those links) apparantly! But because all the genes/chromosomes are coming from the female, it would have to be a female offspring! and I think Jesus was a boy (unless he was hiding something ) and well done on the biology content!

 

[gnostic]

My main source is a Greek priest who uses (slightly later Byzantine) Koine week in and week out in his worship, but I don't think he'd agree to me providing him to you. There's bound to be plenty of sites and books that address such aspects of the language, though.

Well, I have been sick for almost a week, and I'm behind in my studies due to my absence. I don't have time to search for suitable sites nor money to find and buy suitable books.

This is why I am asking you about finding good sources. Hoping that you would be more helpful, cutting down further stress of finding something, when I can ask people "where?", "when?", "why?", "how?", etc to find them. Any supporting materials would be helpful.


I don't doubt that you know your religion, your gospels, your Jesus, and your God better than me, but telling me that there are bound to be "sites" or "books" out there without providing any, is not at all helpful. It certainly doesn't help me to verify what you are saying is true. I am agnostic, James, I don't have the faith that you have to believe that the Mary remained a virgin.

I am not expert on religion, but I know mythology, and I know literature. I also know that original works lose their original meaning when translated with a language as silly as English, but English is all I know. That the reason why I have 6 different translation of Homer's Odyssey (and 5 of the Iliad). When you work with enough materials, you'd a compromise between different versions and then you'd develop grasp of finding thing that would support a view.

That you won't provide me useful materials to confirm and support your statement or argument, don't leave me much room to work with.

 

[Runlikethewind]

Humans can have virgin biths (now I have read some of those links) apparantly! But because all the genes/chromosomes are coming from the female, it would have to be a female offspring! and I think Jesus was a boy (unless he was hiding something ) and well done on the biology content!

Ya I realize there are some problems with it but the point is that Jesus being the result of a virgin birth is not necessarily impossible, just very unlikely. Course we believe Jesus did allot of stuff that was not necessarily impossible but very unlikely (like curing the sick and raising the dead).

I agree that our society is more obsessed with sex outside of marriage today....
I personally cant see Mary being a virgin all her life. And to be honest, I dont see what it has anything to do with. You would still worship her as the mother of Jesus - Son of God. So it doesnt really change anything.

First let me point out that Catholics do not worship Mary. Catholics would probably say praise here instead of worship. But that is a whole other topic.

As for whether Mary remained a virgin after she gave birth to Jesus I think James has done an excellent job in describing that. I think that our cultures views on sex make it difficult for some people to believe. And you are right in a sense that it doesn't necisarily make a difference in the long run if Mary did not remain a virgin, strictly speaking. However, this would taint the purity of the Holy Mother and it would affect how she is seen and understood in a theological context. So I would say that it does in fact matter that Mary remained a virgin all her life. Her perpetual virginity goes to the purity required for her as taking on the role of the 'vessel' that carried God made man. This is where the doctrine of the immaculate conception comes into play. Many people misunderstand immaculate conception to refer to the conception of Jesus by Mary when in fact it refers to Mary's conception. We believe that Mary received the grace of baptism at her conception so that she would be completely free from original sin from the very beginning because her role as Mother of God required absolute purity. So the immaculate conception of Mary and the perpetual virginity of her all go to her absolute purity as the Mother of God. To say that she did not remain a virgin would be like saying she was not absolutely pure and that would effect our praise of her.

 

[Moey]

Joseph wouldn't have been the first man alive to believe everything that came out of a woman's mouth.

How do we know if an angel came and talked to joseph. Maybe he was mad at the tought of his woman being "Open", got drunk and holucinated.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I believe it. I know it is difficult to comprehend in a society that is so obsessed with sex as ours is but there where times in the past when people had what one might call restraint over their sexual impulses as opposed to today when we just give into them whenever we can or want to.

Surely you didn't forget sodom and gomorrah

There's a little history repeating itself.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Humans can have virgin biths (now I have read some of those links) apparantly! But because all the genes/chromosomes are coming from the female, it would have to be a female offspring! and I think Jesus was a boy (unless he was hiding something ) and well done on the biology content!

Some women have an extra "y "chromosome, they test for it at the Olympics.
If Such a woman had a child by parthenogenesis she could indeed have a male child.

It would be a very rare individual.... But then Christ was a very great rarity.

there is nothing in science that demonstrates that Christ could not have been the result of a virgin birth.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Some women have an extra "y "chromosome, they test for it at the Olympics.
If Such a woman had a child by parthenogenesis she could indeed have a male child.

It would be a very rare individual.... But then Christ was a very great rarity.

there is nothing in science that demonstrates that Christ could not have been the result of a virgin birth.

Yes I know there isnt, hence I believe in Jesus Christ!

 

[Hope]

Perpetual virginity, then, is clearly the majority Christian view.

James

I disagree. Perhaps from your point of view. Not from mine.

 

[Katzpur]

Who actually believes that a married woman was a virgin?

I believe Mary was a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to Jesus. I don't believe she remained a virgin throughout her life, but I don't think that's what you're getting at. This is just a thread to ridicule Christians. Why don't you just cut to the chase and stop wasting our time?

Does someone want to explain that to me?

If I ever figure out how it happened, you'll be the first to know.

 

[Moey]

I wanted to know the reasons behind why she is called the virgin mother. I am not trying to ridicule christians. Evedently it was an interesting topic otherwise it wouldn't have gone on this long.

 

[James the Persian]

That you won't provide me useful materials to confirm and support your statement or argument, don't leave me much room to work with.

It's not that I won't. I simply can't. I did try to help as much as I could by offering the Protoevanghelion of James for consideration. You can certainly find that online and I've got an idea where to look if you want me to. I'm sorry that I can't be of more help, but Holy Tradition is not something that you can find collected in a book somewhere, and I'm afraid that I've got my knowledge of the cultural context of Koine from conversations with clergy, seminarians and the like - I've never formally studied the language, so I can't give you links to resources. I apologise, but there's really little I can do to help you. I'm certainly not trying to duch your question, though, and if I come across something that looks relevant, I'll let you know.

James

 

[James the Persian]

I disagree. Perhaps from your point of view. Not from mine.

Majority doesn't depend on point of view, it depends on statistics. It's quite clear that most modern Christians and a greater proportion of historical ones believe in perpetual virginity, because the pre-Reformation churches together comprise the majority of Christains and we all believe it. Your point of view may differ with us over whether or not it is true, but unless in your point of view numbers have a different meaning, it can't possibly affect which view is held by the majority.

James

 

[Moey]

I am one of those people who question everything and need fact to go on. Unfortinantly no one has been able to provide that.

 

[logician]

Please prove Jesus was born, and please give date and location.

I think we can dispense with impossible virgin birth tales, as these were part and parcel of many religious myths pre-existent to Xianity.

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

Please Prove Jesus wasnt Born, Please Prove Mary didnt have a virgin Birth.. There is More Scriptural Proof and other DOcumental Prrof Supporting the Virgin Birth and Jesus, then there is any actual to disprove..wait there isnt anythign to disprove

 

[gnostic]

It's not that I won't. I simply can't. I did try to help as much as I could by offering the Protoevanghelion of James for consideration. You can certainly find that online and I've got an idea where to look if you want me to. I'm sorry that I can't be of more help, but Holy Tradition is not something that you can find collected in a book somewhere, and I'm afraid that I've got my knowledge of the cultural context of Koine from conversations with clergy, seminarians and the like - I've never formally studied the language, so I can't give you links to resources. I apologise, but there's really little I can do to help you. I'm certainly not trying to duch your question, though, and if I come across something that looks relevant, I'll let you know.

I'm sorry if I had being too critical.

I thought you could have provided me more, in term of sources so that I can understand your position.

I just wanted confirmation on what you have stated about the Greek original doesn't indicate Jesus being the first-born or first child of Mary that she didn't have any more children. What do the gospels really say in those 2 verses, if the other translations are wrong?

I don't mind being wrong, but I do want confirmations and verifications before I can decide on the issue of Mary being mother of other children or not.

The gospels don't indicate that Joseph had other children, because he appeared alone with Mary, when they went to Bethlehem. Would his children from his 1st marriage have not follow him around? And I didn't see Mary caring for any step children in their journey. Instead we have total silence on Joseph's other children. Where are they if Joseph had other children that are not Mary's?

If Joseph was only married to Mary, and had other sons apart from Jesus, then it is far more logically that were Jesus' brothers (or more precisely half-brothers) to follow Mary around during Jesus' ministry. Otherwise James and Judas would have followed Joseph's 1st wife, unless of course she had died.

 

[gnostic]

Please Prove Jesus wasnt Born, Please Prove Mary didnt have a virgin Birth.. There is More Scriptural Proof and other DOcumental Prrof Supporting the Virgin Birth and Jesus, then there is any actual to disprove..wait there isnt anythign to disprove

Then why don't you provide your proof? Can you provide non-biblical claim of the virgin birth? The gospels can only provide evidences, but whether they are facts, is different matter. The gospels are not proof, but they are one form of evidence. The rest is based on faith.

Where did Luke and Matthew got their information about Jesus' birth? Did Mary provided them? It certainly can't be Joseph, since he is not at all during the time of Jesus' ministry through Galilee and Judaea.

Jesus didn't seem to have narrated how he was born in any part of his birth and childhood.

 

[James the Persian]

I'm sorry if I had being too critical.

I thought you could have provided me more, in term of sources so that I can understand your position.

I just wanted confirmation on what you have stated about the Greek original doesn't indicate Jesus being the first-born or first child of Mary that she didn't have any more children. What do the gospels really say in those 2 verses, if the other translations are wrong?

I don't mind being wrong, but I do want confirmations and verifications before I can decide on the issue of Mary being mother of other children or not.

I'm sorry that i can't be of more help. Honestly, I would be if I could. I will keep you in mind if I find anything that looks relevant, though.

The gospels don't indicate that Joseph had other children, because he appeared alone with Mary, when they went to Bethlehem. Would his children from his 1st marriage have not follow him around? And I didn't see Mary caring for any step children in their journey. Instead we have total silence on Joseph's other children. Where are they if Joseph had other children that are not Mary's?

The Holy Tradition is that Joseph was old and his sons would have already been grown up. You can see this quite clearly in iconography where both Joseph and James the brother of the Lord are always depicted as old, grey haired men.

If Joseph was only married to Mary, and had other sons apart from Jesus, then it is far more logically that were Jesus' brothers (or more precisely half-brothers) to follow Mary around during Jesus' ministry. Otherwise James and Judas would have followed Joseph's 1st wife, unless of course she had died.

But if Mary had had other sons apart from Christ then they would have been automatically entrusted with her care after Christ's death, and yet the NT is clear that Christ entrusted her to John. This would have been quite impossible and a grave insult according to the Jewish culture of the time had other sons existed. If anything, the NT supports the view I outlined above, and it certainly contradicts it in no way whatsoever.

James