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Masculinity and Feminity?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Is there a one true masculinity? That is, is there a single ideal masculinity? If so what is it? What is it not? Why is it the one true masculinity?

Is there a one true femininity? That is, is there a single ideal femininity? Is so what is it? What is it not? Why is it the one true femininity?

Can masculinity be defined without reference to femininity? Can femininity be defined without reference to masculinity?

Are masculinity and femininity to any extent based in our genes? If so, to what extent are they based in our genes? Are they to any extent social and/or cultural constructs? If so, to what extent are they social and/or cultural constructs?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
My ex said he was the perfect combination of masculinity
and intelligence-half man, half wit.

That may have been intended as self deprecating humour.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
My ex said he was the perfect combination of masculinity
and intelligence-half man, half wit.

That may have been intended as self deprecating humour.
Is Hafthor your ex?
th
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Your genitalia are determined by genes and to some extent by uterine environment.

But masculinity and femininity are social, not biological, constructs. Many different cultures have had many different ideals for both.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Is there a one true masculinity? That is, is there a single ideal masculinity? If so what is it? What is it not? Why is it the one true masculinity?

Is there a one true femininity? That is, is there a single ideal femininity? Is so what is it? What is it not? Why is it the one true femininity?

Can masculinity be defined without reference to femininity? Can femininity be defined without reference to masculinity?

Are masculinity and femininity to any extent based in our genes? If so, to what extent are they based in our genes? Are they to any extent social and/or cultural constructs? If so, to what extent are they social and/or cultural constructs?

It might be assumed that one's feeling of masculinity, or femininity, was associated with one's attraction to the opposite sex, and one might reference Daryl Bem here and his theory - Exotic Becomes Erotic - but as has been proposed by Kinsey and others(?) there appears to be a sliding scale as to such preferences:

Nearly half of young people don't think they are exclusively heterosexual

From Wikipedia:

Some of the data published in the two Kinsey Reports books is controversial in the scientific and psychiatric communities, due to the low amount of research that was done and Kinsey's decision to interview and sexually experiment with volunteers who may not have been representative of the general population. Kinsey justified this sexual experimentation as being necessary to gain the confidence of his research subjects. He encouraged his staff to do likewise, and to engage in a wide range of sexual activity, to the extent that they felt comfortable; he argued that this would help his interviewers understand the participant's responses. Kinsey filmed sexual acts which included co-workers in the attic of his home as part of his research; Biographer Jonathan Gathorne-Hardy explains that this was done to ensure the films' secrecy, which would have caused a scandal had it become public knowledge. James H. Jones, author of Alfred C. Kinsey: A Public/Private Life, and British psychiatrist Theodore Dalrymple, amongst others, have speculated that Kinsey was driven by his own sexual needs.

Concerning the graph above, the numbers of 18-24 year olds who seem to have less polarised views about their sexuality is perhaps a sign of the times (2015), but whether it really reflects the true situation is another matter. Possibly the popular media, social media, and the availability of pornography will be having an effect, along with perhaps the narcissistic and hedonistic lifestyles promoted so readily in this age bracket. At least it shows that attitudes to homosexuality have probably changed since several decades ago, which is a good thing. There is also still some dispute as to whether there is actually a continuum of sexual orientations - this from November 2015:

WSU psychologists dispute continuum theory of sexual orientation

Apart from this, I'm not sure how we feel more masculine or more feminine, but undoubtedly we do seem to have various traits generally associated with the opposite sex to varying degrees. I seem to have quite a bit of the feminine within. Makes up for the lack without. :oops:
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Is there a one true masculinity? That is, is there a single ideal masculinity? If so what is it? What is it not? Why is it the one true masculinity?

Is there a one true femininity? That is, is there a single ideal femininity? Is so what is it? What is it not? Why is it the one true femininity?

Can masculinity be defined without reference to femininity? Can femininity be defined without reference to masculinity?

Are masculinity and femininity to any extent based in our genes? If so, to what extent are they based in our genes? Are they to any extent social and/or cultural constructs? If so, to what extent are they social and/or cultural constructs?

All I really know is that real men aren't supposed to eat quiche. We're supposed to eat manly foods, like steak. We also don't sip wine from a glass; we drink hard liquor straight from the bottle.

We also have scars. Lots of scars...

 

Srivijaya

Active Member
I think that sexuality and masculinity/femininity may not necessarily be connected. Some quite masculine-looking (and behaving) women are still attracted to men and vice versa.

Of course there are always stereotypes but in reality everyone is a bit more complex. I'm hetro but I find ultra-feminine women quite a turn-off. I don't mean the OTT fake barbie-doll feminine (that in any case). I mean normal ultra-feminine women; you know, very softly spoken, their gestures, their immaculate manners and deferential attitude towards men etc.

It may be my background, but women with a few rough edges and a bit of character come across as more 'genuine' and desirable for me.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Is there a one true masculinity? That is, is there a single ideal masculinity? If so what is it? What is it not? Why is it the one true masculinity?

Is there a one true femininity? That is, is there a single ideal femininity? Is so what is it? What is it not? Why is it the one true femininity?

Can masculinity be defined without reference to femininity? Can femininity be defined without reference to masculinity?

Are masculinity and femininity to any extent based in our genes? If so, to what extent are they based in our genes? Are they to any extent social and/or cultural constructs? If so, to what extent are they social and/or cultural constructs?

I found this study of Jungian psychology of types to be a very good map of the male consciousness:

https://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064

What's cool about this book is it cites scenes from movies to help convey the message. It's really a good read. I've read it maybe 50 times. I've listened the audio reading at least 20 times in my car. I have the book practically memorized. Here's a free video reading:


In college I was studying artificial intelligence. I found this book as a map of the human mind to help me write a computer program for hard AI. Then I read the works of John Searle. His arguments convinced me hard AI is not possible with the existing symbolic processing systems we have with modern day computers. Here's a great video where JS argues with google engineers who have tissy fits because they do not like what he's saying:

 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
My ex said he was the perfect combination of masculinity
and intelligence-half man, half wit.

That may have been intended as self deprecating humour.

What I like about self deprecating humor is I have so much material!
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Your genitalia are determined by genes and to some extent by uterine environment.

But masculinity and femininity are social, not biological, constructs. Many different cultures have had many different ideals for both.
Your genitalia are determined by genes and to some extent by uterine environment.

But masculinity and femininity are social, not biological, constructs. Many different cultures have had many different ideals for both.
blog-456-copy-1.jpg
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
No, there isn't one single masculinity and one single femininity. Both masculinity and femininity are present in the separate sexes. According to Carl Jung, feminity can be related to eros, or the relational principle, and masculinity can be related to logos, or the discriminating principle. I'll hide the entries from Daryl Sharp's The Jung Lexicon to avoid a wall of text:
The Jung Lexicon by Jungian analyst, Daryl Sharp, Toronto
Eros. In Greek mythology, the personification of love, a cosmogonic force of nature; psychologically, the function of relationship. (See also anima, animus, Logos and mother complex.)

Woman's consciousness is characterized more by the connective quality of Eros than by the discrimination and cognition associated with Logos. In men, Eros . . . is usually less developed than Logos. In women, on the other hand, Eros is an expression of their true nature, while their Logos is often only a regrettable accident. [The Syzygy: Anima and Animus," CW 9ii, par. 29.]

Eros is a questionable fellow and will always remain so . . . . He belongs on one side to man's primordial animal nature which will endure as long as man has an animal body. On the other side he is related to the highest forms of the spirit. But he thrives only when spirit and instinct are in right harmony.[The Eros Theory," CW 7, par. 32.]

Where love reigns, there is no will to power; and where the will to power is paramount, love is lacking. The one is but the shadow of the other: the man who adopts the standpoint of Eros finds his compensatory opposite in the will to power, and that of the man who puts the accent on power is Eros.[The Problem of the Attitude-Type," ibid., par. 78.]

An unconscious Eros always expresses itself as will to power. ["Psychological Aspects of the Mother Archetype," CW 9i, par. 167.]

Logos. The principle of logic and structure, traditionally associated with spirit, the father world and the God-image. (See also animus and Eros.)

There is no consciousness without discrimination of opposites. This is the paternal principle, the Logos, which eternally struggles to extricate itself from the primal warmth and primal darkness of the maternal womb; in a word, from unconsciousness.["Psychological Aspects of the Mother Archetype," CW 9i, par. 178.]

In Jung's earlier writings, he intuitively equated masculine consciousness with the concept of Logos and feminine consciousness with that of Eros. Either one could be dominant in a particular man or woman, due to the contrasexual complexes.

By Logos I meant discrimination, judgment, insight, and by Eros I meant the capacity to relate. I regarded both concepts as intuitive ideas which cannot be defined accurately or exhaustively. From the scientific point of view this is regrettable, but from a practical one it has its value, since the two concepts mark out a field of experience which it is equally difficult to define.

As we can hardly ever make a psychological proposition without immediately having to reverse it, instances to the contrary leap to the eye at once: men who care nothing for discrimination, judgment, and insight, and women who display an almost excessively masculine proficiency in this respect. . . . Wherever this exists, we find a forcible intrusion of the unconscious, a corresponding exclusion of the consciousness specific to either sex, predominance of the shadow and of contrasexuality.[The Personification of the Opposites," CW 14, pars. 224f.]

In his later writing on alchemy, Jung described Logos and Eros as psychologically equivalent to solar and lunar consciousness, arche-typal ideas analogous to the Eastern concepts of yang and yin-different qualities of energy. This did not change his view that Eros was more "specific" to feminine consciousness and Logos to masculine. Hence he attributed Eros in a man to the influence of the anima, and Logos in a woman to that of the animus.

In a man it is the lunar anima, in a woman the solar animus, that influences consciousness in the highest degree. Even if a man is often unaware of his own anima-possession, he has, understandably enough, all the more vivid an impression of the animus-possession of his wife, and vice versa. [Ibid., par. 225.]

The relational principle eros and the discriminatory logos are roughly equivalent to the Dhyani Buddhas Ratnasambhava and Amitābha, respectively, although these principles are represented by males (conscious mind) rather than females (unconscious mind.)
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Another demonstration that there is no one singular masculine and no one singular feminine: in Europe, lunar was equated with the feminine, and solar was equated with masculine, but in Africa (including Egypt) and western Asia, lunar deities are almost exclusively male. Egyptian goddesses were solar.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I actually was thinking about doing a thread on toxic masculinity exhibited by all sexes and genders as masculinity and femininity is available to all sexes and genders. And I include gender because identifying as a woman does not mean identifying as feminine more than masculine.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
I found this study of Jungian psychology of types to be a very good map of the male consciousness:

https://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064

What's cool about this book is it cites scenes from movies to help convey the message. It's really a good read. I've read it maybe 50 times. I've listened the audio reading at least 20 times in my car. I have the book practically memorized. Here's a free video reading:


I've quoted this work so many times over the years on lots of threads. It's so frustrating how people just ignore it when I find it so profound. It just confirms the old saying people in a dark room do not like it when you turn on the light. It hurts their eyes. But please don't be insulted by my comment or think I am being egotistical. I'm sure it's just my immature response of wishing more people appreciate what I appreciate.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I've quoted this work so many times over the years on lots of threads. It's so frustrating how people just ignore it when I find it so profound. It just confirms the old saying people in a dark room do not like it when you turn on the light. It hurts their eyes. But please don't be insulted by my comment or think I am being egotistical. I'm sure it's just my immature response of wishing more people appreciate what I appreciate.

I've added it to my list of books to buy. :D
 
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