Maslov's Hierarchy, the Motivation Continuum, and avoiding Mad-Max outcomes

[Estro Felino]

Great examples of mc-left

I haven't understood what right or left have to do with motivation continuum, honestly.

Socialism encourages personal motivation.

Laissez-faire crushes people's inspirations for the sake of the Money-God and the profit maximization.

 

[Estro Felino]

Nietzsche used to say that there are two categories of people.
The first category is that of the person who does what the others desire. Because they desperately need the others' approval, so they imitate them.

And the second category is that of the person who does what they desire. Who follow their own inclinations. They are outspoken, indomitable people.

 

[icehorse]

I haven't understood what right or left have to do with motivation continuum, honestly.

Socialism encourages personal motivation.

Laissez-faire crushes people's inspirations for the sake of the Money-God and the profit maximization.

Yeah, I'm thinking I might want to re-do the traditional MC diagram I showed near the beginning of the thread. That diagram has absolutely NOTHING to do with politics, the political left and/or right. It's just depicting a continuum.

I think I might redraw that earlier diagram, spin it 90 degrees, so that the "good" kind of motivation, intrinsic motivation is on top, and the bad kind - carrot and stick is at the bottom.

so again - MC left and right has nothing to do with political left and right.

 

[Alien826]

When we're talking about changing society I think it's assumed we're mostly making statistical claims, correct?

So - from a statistical perspective - most people will not feel fulfilled through laziness. A few might, most will not. This is not based on the imposition of an authority, this is just neuroscience

As a general rule there are some pursuits for which a person could claim expertise with a straight face and some pursuits for which there isn't enough "there, there" to make such a claim. E.g., one can be a chess expert, but to claim you're a tic-tac-toe expert is just silly.

So - in general - people feel good when they're pursuing something they love that they can achieve some level of expertise in. That said, of course for you in might be the clarinet, for Sally it might be plumbing, and so on.

That's probably true, but my concern is more related to replacing the general societal pressure to work with pressure to do something "fulfilling". In the new society, work is no longer necessary, so hopefully the "work ethic" would fade away. It might take a while as it's so embedded into our psyches. I guess I don't want our present excuses to look down on others to be replaced by a new set of criteria.

Putting it more personally, if I decide to skip my clarinet practice for a few days, or even give it up altogether, I don't want people telling me what I "should" be doing. This is also personal, as I have never been very good at sports and I avoided them as a child. As a result my life was made a misery at school. I was called "lazy". I was forced to spend hours on a soccer field, hating every minute of it, all because it was considered to be "good for me" to indulge in sports. Not surprisingly, once I left school I never played any sport again (the exception was golf, which doesn't call for great physical exertion, and the handicap system removes a lot of the competitive aspect).

 

[Alien826]

Nietzsche used to say that there are two categories of people.
The first category is that of the person who does what the others desire. Because they desperately need the others' approval, so they imitate them.

And the second category is that of the person who does what they desire. Who follow their own inclinations. They are outspoken, indomitable people.

Yes. I truly believe that the first and essential step to becoming happy/fulfilled is to stop caring what others think of you. You may follow some of society's rules, but do it because you agree with them not because others will judge you if you don't.

Of course, common sense has to apply. If you think that all property should be shared and simply take what you want from others, happiness will probably not follow.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes. I truly believe that the first and essential step to becoming happy/fulfilled is to stop caring what others think of you. You may follow some of society's rules, but do it because you agree with them not because others will judge you if you don't.

Of course, common sense has to apply. If you think that all property should be shared and simply take what you want from others, happiness will probably not follow.

We are speaking of positive inclinations, dreams, aspirations.
Not of something that harms others, of course.

 

[icehorse]

That's probably true, but my concern is more related to replacing the general societal pressure to work with pressure to do something "fulfilling". In the new society, work is no longer necessary, so hopefully the "work ethic" would fade away. It might take a while as it's so embedded into our psyches. I guess I don't want our present excuses to look down on others to be replaced by a new set of criteria.

Putting it more personally, if I decide to skip my clarinet practice for a few days, or even give it up altogether, I don't want people telling me what I "should" be doing. This is also personal, as I have never been very good at sports and I avoided them as a child. As a result my life was made a misery at school. I was called "lazy". I was forced to spend hours on a soccer field, hating every minute of it, all because it was considered to be "good for me" to indulge in sports. Not surprisingly, once I left school I never played any sport again (the exception was golf, which doesn't call for great physical exertion, and the handicap system removes a lot of the competitive aspect).

That all makes sense, but let me reframe this a bit:

The key here is to find things you love that are also challenging. Again, some pursuits afford legitimate expertise, some do not. Here are some things that afford expertise:

photography, art, crafts, wood working, mechanics, non-twitch games (electronic or not), even sudoku has its experts.

If society is forcing you to do any of these things then again it becomes extrinsic, and we should be seeking intrinsic motivation.

 

[icehorse]

Nietzsche used to say that there are two categories of people.
The first category is that of the person who does what the others desire. Because they desperately need the others' approval, so they imitate them.

And the second category is that of the person who does what they desire. Who follow their own inclinations. They are outspoken, indomitable people.

I would say Nietzsche described two ends of the continuum, but that it's not as black and white as that. E.g., a teenager is genuinely concerned about the environment and goes to protests due to that concern AND because friends are also going.

 

[Estro Felino]

That's probably true, but my concern is more related to replacing the general societal pressure to work with pressure to do something "fulfilling". In the new society, work is no longer necessary, so hopefully the "work ethic" would fade away. It might take a while as it's so embedded into our psyches. I guess I don't want our present excuses to look down on others to be replaced by a new set of criteria.

The work ethic is an expedient invented by the Capitalists to be able to exploit commoners. Since, in an Utopian world, in each small community, there is not the principle of competition; there is the principle of cooperation. That is, people are selected and chosen according to their skills and capabilities.
Which means: you cannot make a weak, thin woman work as many hours as a strong man.
Or you cannot make a 60 year old work as many hours as a 20 year old.
That's insane that there are not such distinctions...but people are treated like machines.

 

[Estro Felino]

I would say Nietzsche described two ends of the continuum, but that it's not as black and white as that. E.g., a teenager is genuinely concerned about the environment and goes to protests due to that concern AND because friends are also going.

I was thinking of something else.
I give you a practical example.

A friend of mine had a baby at 37. Do you know why?
Because her sister had made a baby one year early.
So she made a baby not out of parental vocation (she doesn't have that, I can promise you that. Her sister does)
But because she imitated others.

I say it clearly. These are empty people who imitate others 24/7. Without personality and that makes them commit errors.

 

[icehorse]

I was thinking of something else.
I give you a practical example.

A friend of mine had a baby at 37. Do you know why?
Because her sister had made a baby one year early.
So she made a baby not out of parental vocation (she doesn't have that, I can promise you that. Her sister does)
But because she imitated others.

I say it clearly. These are empty people who imitate others 24/7. Without personality and that makes them commit errors.

Understood. I didn't say Nietzsche was totally wrong, only incomplete So yes, imitation happens, that IS a point on the continuum. But there are many other points on the continuum, it's not an either / or thing as Nietzsche proposed.

 

[Estro Felino]

Understood. I didn't say Nietzsche was totally wrong, only incomplete So yes, imitation happens, that IS a point on the continuum. But there are many other points on the continuum, it's not an either / or thing as Nietzsche proposed.

Of course it's not either/or.
But imitation is the opposite of motivation.
Motivation is innate.

 

[Heyo]

Of course it's not either/or.
But imitation is the opposite of motivation.
Motivation is innate.

Children have an innate motivation to copy adults. It's how they learn. If you want to learn a craft, the usual way is to copy a master.

 

[icehorse]

Of course it's not either/or.
But imitation is the opposite of motivation.
Motivation is innate.

That's not what motivation theory says. Motivation theory says that the most robust form of motivation is intrinsic - I guess that's somewhat like what you mean when you say innate?

But a LOT of motivation is controlled by regulators outside of or "extrinsic" to the individual. E.g. when one person motivates another thru threats or bribes.

 

[Estro Felino]

Children have an innate motivation to copy adults. It's how they learn. If you want to learn a craft, the usual way is to copy a master.

Also.
But it mostly depend on genetics, which is innate.

Why do you think the 80% of students in scientific high schools are males?
Or the 80% of students of sociology-psychology are females?

 

[icehorse]

Children have an innate motivation to copy adults. It's how they learn. If you want to learn a craft, the usual way is to copy a master.

yup - i'd call that an example of intrinsic motivation.

 

[osgart]

With this motivation paradigm you are asking people to put on the brakes, stop doing what they've been doing for generations and suddenly become wiser with their own motivations, and how others are motivated.

It's kind of interesting that A.I. might force us all to rethink everything, and go toward MC right anyway.

 

[icehorse]

With this motivation paradigm you are asking people to put on the brakes, stop doing what they've been doing for generations and suddenly become wiser with their own motivations, and how others are motivated.

It's kind of interesting that A.I. might force us all to rethink everything, and go toward MC right anyway.

You're correct - it's a BIG ask

But I think we're facing ecological and economical overshoot and some drastic course corrections will be necessary. The good news is that understanding the MC could help us break free from much of how bad actors have been manipulating society, and moving towards healthier, happier motivators.

Think of true experts doing what they love doing. That's a very, very happy picture. Sadly, it's a rare occurrence these days. We need to move towards more people finding their passions and spending their time in healthy ways

(Sorry for the soap box moment, but I think there is a win-win here)

 

[Estro Felino]

That's not what motivation theory says. Motivation theory says that the most robust form of motivation is intrinsic - I guess that's somewhat like what you mean when you say innate?

Yes.

But a LOT of motivation is controlled by regulators outside of or "extrinsic" to the individual. E.g. when one person motivates another thru threats or bribes.

And is that something positive?
Threatening and bribing?
It's something very negative,

 

[Estro Felino]

I guess Oriana is the second kind of person Nietzsche used to talk about.
Outspoken, indomitable, frank, blunt, crass.