Masturbation proves many Christians don't believe what they profess

[Link]

You're STILL talking about "sin" when I told you (and others) multiple times that it doesn't matter what God thinks about masturbation for this concept. It just doesn't.

Your reply is just crap, and I have a super simple thought exercise which PROVES unequivocally that these people we are talking about (those that masturbate, would not do so in front of God, and yet believe that God "sees all") are in direct conflict with themselves and their beliefs in some way. You ready? Please read carefully... there is already so little I believe that you understand based on your replies thus far, I, personally, would prefer you not destroy what little hope I have left. Here goes (in red below):

These same people would simply NOT masturbate were there any actual, physical person that they felt uncomfortable doing so in front of in the room with them. They wouldn't do it. They could only muster the "courage" to do so if they felt confident that this person could not see them.

See how easy that is? Do you understand why that is entirely pertinent to the discussion? If you do not... then shame on you. Use your brain.

I am saying the prayers I showed, show the sinner is a state where he cares about what others think more then God. You are right, if we gave God his proper due, we would not sin. But people don't, and hence the prayers show how to go from a state where we are shameless, bold against God and care more about what others think then him and are more afraid of people then God's vision, to turn back to God repent and change that state.

You are not correct in that they disbelieve, but you are correct it's irrational state, and put's one on the verge of disbelief by how bold we are in God's vision if we continuously sin.

This is why the prayers I showed, we confess therein we were shameless with God, we were more ashamed towards others, feared others more then God, etc, which is evil and so the prayers are about acknowledging that and then changing this horrible irrational state.

 

[Meow Mix]

Something tells me only 76% of American women self-report masturbating.

 

[Link]

Something tells me only 76% of American women self-report masturbating.

You being sexist, you saying men are more honest than women???

 

[Meow Mix]

I’m trying to remember if I was already masturbating when I was still a Christian or not. The fact that I don’t remember being traumatized thinking somebody was watching me or whatever indicates it probably didn’t matter or the thought didn’t cross my mind.

 

[Meow Mix]

You being sexist, you saying men are more honest than women???

I’m saying it’s less socially acceptable in some circles for women to be open about sexuality or to effectively express that they get horny. I think this could lead to failing to self-report.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I am saying the prayers I showed, show the sinner is a state where he cares about what others think more then God.

Hahaha... but the person WOULDN'T care more about what others think than God if God were VISIBLY in the room with them, would they? No... no they wouldn't. And therein lies the issue. They obviously feel that God is NOT in the room there with them... because if He were, verifiably, then they wouldn't masturbate. Boom. Deny that one.

You are right, if we gave God his proper due, we would not sin.

Again - I couldn't give two shist about "sin." I don't care what you think is "sin", and, if possible, I care even less what you think God thinks is "sin." It doesn't matter to the discussion. If the person would be uncomfortable masturbating with God standing in the corner of the room staring at them, then we have a problem.

You are not correct in that they disbelieve,

I sort of just demonstrated that I am correct. Because, again, they wouldn't masturbate if God was standing in a corner of the room staring at them. They could only do it if they felt He wasn't watching. So, they either DON'T BELIEVE that He is actually "watching all" like they claim, or they DON'T BELIEVE God is there at all. I see no other way around it.

put's one on the verge of disbelief

Nice try - "on the verge." Again - God is visibly standing in the room with them. Do they masturbate? Yes or no? In order to masturbate, I would say that they have to be entertaining the notion that God isn't watching them as they do so... because if He were literally watching them, and they could see that... then they wouldn't masturbate. If the belief held up that God was "always watching" then they literally couldn't do it... just as they couldn't if God were there, verifiably standing in the room.

 

[Link]

There is another prayer, which shows, a person is quite heedless of their evil till they repent, this is part of du'a of repentance taught by Imam Sajjad (a):

This is the station of him
whom sins have passed from hand to hand.
Offenses' reins have led him on,
and Satan has gained mastery over him.
He fell short of what Thou hast commanded
through neglect
and he pursued what Thou hast prohibited
in delusion,

like one ignorant of Thy power over him
or one who denies the bounty of Thy beneficence toward him,
until, when the eye of guidance was opened for him
and the clouds of blindness were dispelled,
he reckoned that through which he had wronged himself
and reflected upon that in which he had opposed his Lord.
He saw his vast disobedience as vast
and his great opposition as great.

So turned to Thee,
hoping in Thee
and ashamed before Thee,
and he directed his beseeching toward Thee,
having trust in Thee.
He repaired to Thee in his longing
with certitude
and he went straight to Thee in fear
with sincerity.
His longing was devoid of every object of longing but Thee,
and his fright departed from every object of fear but Thee.

So he stood before Thee pleading,




So this another factor, aside from the irrationality of not caring what God thinks of us as much as people, there is this heedlessness towards the degree of evil we are in when we continuously sin.

 

[Link]

The prayer essentially shows, the Imam (a) agrees, we are akin and like disbelievers in God when we continuously sin as if ignorant over God's power or bounty over us, but it's the case, that we aren't ignorant but it does resemble it, and to that I agree with you.

 

[Link]

Hahaha... but the person WOULDN'T care more about what others think than God if God were VISIBLY in the room with them, would they? No... no they wouldn't. And therein lies the issue. They obviously feel that God is NOT in the room there with them... because if He were, verifiably, then they wouldn't masturbate. Boom. Deny that one.

I'm saying it resembles as if we disbelieve, because of how highly irrational this state is, but it's quite normal, because the sorcery of Iblis in causing humans to enter heedless state and drunk state of sinning, is common. But most still believe in God even in this severe irrational state. But if they don't repent and change their ways, their light will die out eventually.

 

[Moonjuice]

Something tells me only 76% of American women self-report masturbating.

Of course! That is one of the problems with polling data. Many people will still act like they have never done it....just too embarrassed to admit it, even to a stranger asking a polling question over the phone. For as long as I can remember, I've heard a saying that goes like this: There are two kinds of men in the world, those how admit to masturbating and those who lie about it. I'm not naïve enough to think that only applies to men.

 

[Meow Mix]

I'm sure there do exist people that actually don't masturbate; some people feel very little to no libido (and I've gone through stretches where this was the case for one reason or the other). So maybe some people are talking about their libido in the there and now, too. Another problem with polling is getting the context of the question right. If someone hasn't masturbated in a while they might self-report "no."

 

[Moonjuice]

I'm sure there do exist people that actually don't masturbate; some people feel very little to no libido (and I've gone through stretches where this was the case for one reason or the other). So maybe some people are talking about their libido in the there and now, too. Another problem with polling is getting the context of the question right. If someone hasn't masturbated in a while they might self-report "no."

Good point.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I'm saying it resembles as if we disbelieve, because of how highly irrational this state is, but it's quite normal, because the sorcery of Iblis in causing humans to enter heedless state and drunk state of sinning, is common. But most still believe in God even in this severe irrational state. But if they don't repent and change their ways, their light will die out eventually.

I'm not buying it. Not at all. "Resembles." Ha! They don't believe He is watching. They can't. If they did, then it would be the same as if God were in the room with them and they could witness His presence. But it isn't like that AT ALL. It just isn't. No two ways about it.

And here's yet another simple thought exercise that will necessarily have to leave you thinking. Let's say, for the sake of the thought exercise, that this person just really, really had an itch to masturbate. You have two video cameras in the room, one obvious, and one hidden and inform them that their mother is watching through the obvious camera. For the obvious camera, you leave the wires and power cable to the camera very obviously displaying, and you leave a pair of wire cutters on a dresser just under the camera. You leave the room, and let's say (again for the sake of the example) that the person is completely embarrassed to masturbate while their mother might be watching, but wants to do so so badly that they cut the feed to the obvious/visible camera and masturbate. When they come out of the room, you inform them that their mother actually witnessed them masturbate via the second, hidden camera that was planted.

What do you think the person's reaction would be? When they believed their mother's eyes were not on them, they went ahead with the masturbation (as it is any time you might masturbate, feeling safe in the knowledge that your mother can't see you). But when told that she managed to see anyway, they would likely be mortified, and had they known about the other, hidden camera, then they likely wouldn't have masturbated at all! In the case where a person SUPPOSEDLY believes that God sees/witnesses all, it would be exactly like God having a video camera, and a backup camera, and a backup backup camera, etc. if they truly believed He could "see" them, they wouldn't do it. I have no choice but to conclude that they do not believe that "God is watching" even if they would say that they do.

 

[Link]

We going in circles. You won't accept it and are repeating your assertion and I am repeating my explanations.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

We going in circles. You won't accept it and are repeating your assertion and I am repeating my explanations.

Dude... your explanations are crap. There is an irrational disconnect... that much you admitted. But if the person TRULY BELIEVED that God was witnessing them, then it SHOULD be the same as if God were standing in the room with them. But it isn't. Go ahead and tell me that it is the same, and that they would still masturbate if God were visibly standing in the room. Please... by all means.

 

[Link]

If they are good yes they would not sin in God's vision, if they are evil, then double standards are possible, they have to leave that evil state. The sinner is an evil irrational state but still, would not ever repent, if they didn't believe. The fact people do eventually repent and leave their evil ways shows many do believe truthfully and don't let sins destroy their light and faith in God.

Sins are a huge trial, in which they take on life form in the soul, and can destroy a soul's light. But people who sinning don't fully realize the dark and dangerous nature of their sins.

 

[Link]

But if the person TRULY BELIEVED that God was witnessing them, then it SHOULD be the same as if God were standing in the room with them.

Full faith with no battle of eyes of the evil companion with the person vs eyes of God's appoint companion with the soul (the Imam of their time), yes, you are right, they would not sin.

But there is a battle between two views of God. There is the polytheistic God that commands towards sexual deviance and sex outside of marriage (and outside of muta), and commands and says it's good to be this way and that way, that contradict the holy books.

The devils don't believe in the God of Mohammad, Moses, Jesus, etc, they believe Mohammad (s) and Jesus (a) and Moses (a) were all evil sorcerers that took advantage of people. They don't believe in what they (the Prophets (s)) forbid to be evil.

The sorcerers believe bisexuality is highest form of sexuality for example and that counters the Prophets (a) and what they said about that.

You have to also account that there is battle between Iblis forces and God's forces for every soul.

If someone fully believe in Mohammad (s) with all their heart, and believed in the Lord of Mohamad and Ali with all their heart, they would for sure, not do such evil acts.

But most people are some percentage where they believe in God, but also believe in the Devil, and are caught between the light and darkness.

Iblis makes people belittle sins.

Surah Qaf is 50th surah as if to say, 50% left 50% right choice, there is 50 50 chance in sins or good deeds, and people choose between left hand and right hand, and what they believe and see will be accounted by the Munkar (the left evil handed companion) and the Nakir (the denied reality and light of God, the right handed companion and guide and leader from humans).

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

If they are good yes they would not sin in God's vision, if they are evil, then double standards are possible, they have to leave that evil state. The sinner is an evil irrational state but still, would not ever repent, if they didn't believe. The fact people do eventually repent and leave their evil ways shows many do believe truthfully and don't let sins destroy their light and faith in God.

Sins are a huge trial, in which they take on life form in the soul, and can destroy a soul's light. But people who sinning don't fully realize the dark and dangerous nature of their sins.

Still using the word "sin" I see. Please stop.

Link, I don't even care if you answer these question on the forum, please for any love you have of maintaining intellectual integrity, answer these questions for yourself and discern the reasons I am asking:

1. Do you masturbate? Yes/No
2. Would you masturbate if you could literally see God staring at you from a corner of the room? Yes/No
3. Do you literally believe that God can see/witness all? Yes/No

Again - feel free to keep your answers to yourself. This is not about embarrassing you. This is about thought and consistency.

 

[Link]

In Islam claiming sexual purity is forbidden as well as telling your sexual sins in public is forbidden. In other words, Quran forbids me to answer those questions.

 

[Link]

There are three verses about attributing purity to ourselves in Quran.

1. In context of clergy being attributed righteousness and representing Prophets (a) and understanding revelation through partly being righteous in heart, it clearly forbid that. (Suran Nisa)
2. In context of polytheistic soothsayers claiming to represent Angels and having a higher connection to them (tarot cards, that kind of "higher purity" connection)than others, it clearly forbid that. (Surah Najm)
3. Sexual purity being something only God by his compassion can attribute to souls (the chosen ones) and manifest, not that others can't have it, but it's for God to manifest and attribute such purity, in other words he condemned the talk of some believers towards other believers of sexual deviation accusation saying aside from their accusations being false, it's not for them to claim themselves to be free of such acts because only God can manifest who is pure in that regard. (Surah Noor).

God knows best who has Taqwa, it's not for people to show off their states. Conceal your states, let people assume the worse of you for all you care, because reputation is unreliable and in hands of Iblis.