Materialist and Spiritualist

[viole]

its like claiming east is better/worse than west and vicey versa. the two shall never meet so long as they think in terms of absolute black and white. pity

Why pity? and why is it important that they meet?

Materialism, or better, naturalism, is pretty clear what it is. Spiritualism is so wishy washy that nobody knows what it is, except to be defined as the negation of naturalism.

ciao

- viole

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Do you have any evidence of what objective reality is as independent of the mind?

How does this answer my question?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I don't have any on hand. It's hidden away in some trees.

Ok.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

How does this answer my question?

Well, it doesn't. But it would give me an idea of what you consider evidence to be.

 

[Orbit]

could there be a middle ground between spiritualism and materialism?

Spiritualism has a dictionary definition, and that is a set of beliefs concerned with contacting the dead through seances. Do you mean "spirituality" or ???

 

[Viker]

Spiritualism has a dictionary definition, and that is a set of beliefs concerned with contacting the dead through seances. Do you mean "spirituality" or ???

I think that's what is implied.

 

[Vee]

could there be a middle ground between spiritualism and materialism?

Materialistic people sort of worship material things. Thus materialism becomes their "god", if you want to put it that way. People like can don't usually focus on something other than their goal of having more money and more stuff. The ones I know find it a complete waste of time and energy to even think about spiritual things.
I've never met anyone that was at the same time materialistic and spiritual.

 

[Fool]

Why pity? and why is it important that they meet?

Materialism, or better, naturalism, is pretty clear what it is. Spiritualism is so wishy washy that nobody knows what it is, except to be defined as the negation of naturalism.

ciao

- viole

sometimes a persons view, belief system, and their behavior don't align. they say one thing while doing another. i'm sure you've heard of do as i say and not as i do. that is why it's a pity

 

[Nakosis]

I think you fail to appreciate the difference between being open to possibility, and willing to believe any old nonsense.

Please, enlighten me.

For spiritual or religious ideas to be persuasive, they must have substance and value.

What do you mean by substance?
For value, just about any fictional idea can be given value.

Which is not to say that they cannot be mistaken or misguided, but if you ever discover a methodology which is not susceptible to mistakes and misguidance, hold on to that because it will unprecedented in human history.

How can you test for mistakes or misguidance for something with no physical evidence?

It seems you what to call those things which you find as incredulous as non-sense. For me it is all as equally incredulous.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Materialistic people sort of worship material things. Thus materialism becomes their "god", if you want to put it that way. People like can don't usually focus on something other than their goal of having more money and more stuff. The ones I know find it a complete waste of time and energy to even think about spiritual things.
I've never met anyone that was at the same time materialistic and spiritual.

Well, I can do both as to me they are both a part of the world, but of course to me spiritual is philosophical more than religious.

 

[Vee]

Well, I can do both as to me they are both a part of the world, but of course to me spiritual is philosophical more than religious.

By definition materialism is "a tendency to consider material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual values". Maybe you can do both, but can do it in equal measures?

 

[Clara Tea]

could there be a middle ground between spiritualism and materialism?

Bridging the gap, many spiritualists (in name only) have become materialists (or they always were materialists and see spiritual leadership as a means to get more material).

Case in point: Reverend Jim and Tammy Fay Bakker who stole from donors and starving African recipients to air condition the dog house of their mansion (in their lawyer's name to evade suspicion).

Listen to televangelists (running expensive TV shows)...."if you give me all of your money, the lord will give you ten times more" (which never happens, by the way). Almost every word that they utter on TV is about raising money (not doing the lord's work).

If you go to Maryland, and look at the house of the founder of the Peace Corps, you will see his mansion.

Many charities are fronts to make money for the founders of the charity.

Here there is an organization that accepts books so they can sell them to others to raise money. I overheard the founder saying that he got an autographed copy of the Wizard of Oz that is worth a fortune, so he kept it (rather than selling it to someone to raise money).

Someone told me that they went into Goodwill, and found newly arrived antiques in the back. The boss was gone, but they saved money by hiring the handicapped. She talked the mentally retarded worker into selling her the antique. Ordinarily, Goodwill managers keep all of the good stuff, pay under minimum wage for mentally handicapped workers, and charge as much as a new item would cost.

Ray Kroc (owner of McDonalds) died, leaving his vast fortune to the Salvation Army (known, in the past, for running soup kitchens, as long as the people eating were willing to pray to their God with their bible). Instead of giving to the poor, the Salvation Army bought a new skyscraper head office for themselves. Maybe some of the money went to feed the hungry.

Very little goes to the intended donees. Most charities are money making shams designed to enrich the founders.

 

[Clara Tea]

By definition materialism is "a tendency to consider material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual values". Maybe you can do both, but can do it in equal measures?

Maybe they could buy the spiritual? Hire them to break the legs of a little old lady that they foreclosed on?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

By definition materialism is "a tendency to consider material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual values". Maybe you can do both, but can do it in equal measures?

I am not sure it has to be equal measure. I do material when that is relevant and spiritual when that is relevant, So which is most important? Both are, but you do have a point. That matter matters is spiritual to me, so maybe I am more spiritual.

 

[Clara Tea]

Why pity? and why is it important that they meet?

Materialism, or better, naturalism, is pretty clear what it is. Spiritualism is so wishy washy that nobody knows what it is, except to be defined as the negation of naturalism.

ciao

- viole

It is natural for people to want things for themselves (they are called Nietshceans, after the founder of that philosophy). The idea is that if everyone was out for their own good, everyone would thrive. People would want to be richer and stronger.

 

[George-ananda]

could there be a middle ground between spiritualism and materialism?

Yes, in that spirits are 'matter' of a higher plane of nature beyond our familiar three-dimensions.

Spirits are matter then.

 

[Orbit]

I think we have a definition problem here. Philosophical materialism is not the same as "being materialistic".

 

[RestlessSoul]

Please, enlighten me.



What do you mean by substance?
For value, just about any fictional idea can be given value.



How can you test for mistakes or misguidance for something with no physical evidence?

It seems you what to call those things which you find as incredulous as non-sense. For me it is all as equally incredulous.

Okay. Except that ye see signs and wonders, ye do not believe.

But what if you do see signs and wonders?

 

[Nakosis]

Okay. Except that ye see signs and wonders, ye do not believe.

But what if you do see signs and wonders?

There is a lot of information about how the brain works. Like for instance how our brain alternates between external perception and internal images constantly.
So what you see as external physical reality is only partly external.

Like being able to see faces or animals in clouds.
It is common for us to perceive something in physical reality that isn't really there.
Like a mirage, no matter how hard you try to focus, you still see a body of water that isn't there.

If you believe in signs and wonders, the unconscious mind supports your perception of these things.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

could there be a middle ground between spiritualism and materialism?

"Spiritualism" seems to mean whatever the person using the term wants it to mean, so yeah... sure.