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Materialist Ethics? Vegan Materialists?

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Most people who identify as materialists don't believe all things which exist is matter.
Apparently you're right. How about defining what you mean by "materialism," explaining how moral behavior arises from it or is consistent with that thesis, and why the materialist believes the s/he can choose to conform his/her behavior thereto?

I agree with you that morals aren't a science issue insofar as science doesn't provide value judgement, it's just a tool for collecting data. Though it can help provide accurate data for making moral decisions which I believe is very important.
How does the scientific method provide data for making decisions that are moral? Cite those studies.

But as to your thread at large, I'm still not seeing why being a materialist would prohibit a person from having experience influence their moral judgement as opposed to a non-materialist.
Again, I'm only pointing to the logical inconsistencies between the metaphysical thesis and ethical thesis or requirements. How does a "materialist ethics" work--how does it not entail self-contradictions?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
You're making an assumption after the fact. 'A computer can do it so it must be mechanical. If a computer can't do it [yet] it must be because there's a non-mechanical aspect to it.'
I see no reason to believe feelings aren't mechanical, especially since we can actively control people's experience of feelings by manipulating their mechanical brain and endocrine system.
You can manipulate people’s feelings for sure but you can’t create the ability to subjectively feel from nothing. You can’t create subjective feelings by electrons taking paths through logic circuits. There is no difference to the electrons or circuits as to any big subjective picture.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Apparently you're right. How about defining what you mean by "materialism," explaining how moral behavior arises from it or is consistent with that thesis, and why the materialist believes the s/he can choose to conform his/her behavior thereto?

How does the scientific method provide data for making decisions that are moral? Cite those studies.

Again, I'm only pointing to the logical inconsistencies between the metaphysical thesis and ethical thesis or requirements. How does a "materialist ethics" work--how does it not entail self-contradictions?
Ontological monism is probably the closest to how I view things in materialism but it includes aspects from other modes of thought too. I don't have a simple definition for you because I think it's more dynamic than a simple definition can be.

More to the point though, to me the question is nonsensical because I don't believe morals arise from either materialism or non-materialism. The logical inconsistency to me is that metaethics has nothing to do with establishment of material and non-material. And I can't think of any metaethical system aside from divine command which is mutually exclusive from a materialist worldview. So a materialist ethical system would look like every other one.

As to this:
How does the scientific method provide data for making decisions that are moral?
If you want to minimize suffering, science can tell you what kinds of actions cause suffering and how you might go about reducing it. The scientific data is giving you framework for your moral judgement.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You can’t create subjective feelings by electrons taking paths through logic circuits.
Sure you can. You can replicate the same systems the human body has to create feelings then the 'logic circuit' experiences it subjectively from its perspective. Why wouldn't you be able to do this?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Your statements are self-contradictory. You say in one sentence that assigning values "involves intellect" and in the next sentence that "It's is all rooted on your feelings".

Something can involve intellect and yet be rooted on your feelings.
There is no contradiction here.

You ask the question "And it is all rooted on your feelings, isn't it?" My answer is "no". In fact, sometimes it may "feel good"--at least temporarily--to act in ways that are immoral. Right? ("I racked up ten thousand dollars on his credit card and got away with it! High five!")

Only to later on feel bad about it ?
If you don't ever regret it, can you really say that you regard it as immoral ?

False. Having empathy does not compel behavior.

It absolutely does.
Do you disagree that feelings compel behavior ? Or is your disagreement specific to 'empathy' compelling behavior ?

How does matter choose? Cite those studies.

You are made of matter. Do you deny that you make choices ?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Sure you can. You can replicate the same systems the human body has to create feelings then the 'logic circuit' experiences it subjectively from its perspective. Why wouldn't you be able to do this?
That would be something unrelated to the computers we’ve been discussing that play chess.

But my position is that individual parts can never produce what we call consciousness or subjective feelings. There needs to be an additional element (soul?) that subjectively experiences as the whole of all the parts.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Doesn't your statement (1) merely imply an objective moral fact? How does the materialist justify the proposition that causing needless suffering is "bad"? How did such a thing become "bad"?
It's a problem for non-materialists too, unless they think that someone else decided what is good and what is bad and they choose what is decided from outside of them, or even mandated for them.

What the materialist needs to explain is why s/he believes it is possible to choose his/her behavior. How do aggregates of matter choose the red M&M rather than the blue one?
Isn't it the same for anyone else?
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
(1) the fact that the materialist would believe that it is better to conform his/her behavior according to certain moral precepts
Perhaps by now it is just my being dense... but it seems to me that it is easy to explain why a "materialist" of the nature you are describing would believe it "better to conform to certain moral precepts." Based on simple examination of circumstances, experience in actions taken and outcomes witnessed, it could very well turn up that adhering to those moral principles is deemed "better" than not. Even taking things from a purely logical viewpoint - experience would indicate that not all humans are completely "logical", and so, the best-case for peaceful/productive existence (or even merely a "free" existence) is to "play by the rules." now... go ahead and shoot that full of holes like you are bound to do. It almost seems by now like you don't have any "choice" in that regard.

(2) the proposition that it is possible for a person to choose to conform his/her behavior according to those moral precepts.
My answer to this is basically the same as above. If it is deemed by a particular "materialist" that it is more efficient to plod out one's course in life according to "the rules" of greater society/culture/etc. then that is the path they would choose. Or, even given that they had no choice, that would be the circumstance they find themselves in given the aspect of their nature/nurture as are presented in reality.

To my mind, there is no conflict except the one you wish to hold onto so as to discredit this idea of "materialism" as a valid worldview. I don't think you have anything going for you there... despite your insistence that there are no answers to your questions.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That would be something unrelated to the computers we’ve been discussing that play chess.

But my position is that individual parts can never produce what we call consciousness or subjective feelings. There needs to be an additional element (soul?) that subjectively experiences as the whole of all the parts.
You went there when talking about feelings, which can be replicated by manipulating 'parts.' No soul required.
The computer subjectively experiences the function of its parts in the same way. You can't see or experience running software from the computer's point of view, only it can. We are seeing it third person on a read out. Not unlike looking at scans of a person's brain. That doesn't mean there's something more to the motherboard than circuits and wires.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
You went there when talking about feelings, which can be replicated by manipulating 'parts.' No soul required.
But why do we experience as an organic one and have no clue there are billions of individual neuronal processes going on?
The computer subjectively experiences the function of its parts in the same way. You can't see or experience running software from the computer's point of view, only it can. We are seeing it third person on a read out. Not unlike looking at scans of a person's brain. That doesn't mean there's something more to the motherboard than circuits and wires.
With all those individual parts, what understands the subjective big picture of winning a chess match? How is a computer running a chess program or an AI program anything fundamentally different than my Keurig coffee machine with its smaller processing ability? (It makes killer hot chocolate but has no capacity to understand the subjective experience of taste)

These are some of the things that make me reject materialism. It seems to me most reasonable to believe that there is something that can not be understood by a material worldview that allows experiencing subjectively as this single point subjective experiencer.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
But why do we experience as an organic one and have no clue there are billions of individual neuronal processes going on?
With all those individual parts, what understands the subjective big picture of winning a chess match? How is a computer running a chess program or an AI program anything fundamentally different than my Keurig coffee machine with its smaller processing ability? (It makes killer hot chocolate but has no capacity to understand the subjective experience of taste)

These are some of the things that make me reject materialism. It seems to me most reasonable to believe that there is something that can not be understood by a material worldview that allows experiencing subjectively as this single point subjective experiencer.
That you can taste isn't a mystery. And that your experience of taste is unique to you is no more amazing than the experience of taste would be to a computer processor hooked up to the same chemical exchange as tastebuds. You can't access the perspective of the computer, after all. Only your own.
To argue that because the brain is more complex than a computer processor therefore there must be some immaterial component involved is no more logical than when creationists say that a human is more complex than a single called organism therefore evolution couldn't have happened.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
The computer subjectively experiences the function of its parts in the same way. You can't see or experience running software from the computer's point of view
What is a computer except a human term for a collection of individually functioning parts? How does the whole thing subjectively experience collectively?

I had my second Kuerig coffee so I responded to your post twice

I am rusty on the philosophical arguments against materialism as I have seen piles and piles and piles of paranormal evidence that can not be explained under a materialist worldview rendering the philosophical arguments moot.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
That you can taste isn't a mystery. And that your experience of taste is unique to you is no more amazing than the experience of taste would be to a computer processor hooked up to the same chemical exchange as tastebuds. You can't access the perspective of the computer, after all. Only your own..
The computer there is only electrons following through logic circuits following natural law. If you think there can be some subjective meaning in that for the circuits or electrons then I ran out of things to say.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The computer there is only electrons following through logic circuits following natural law. If you think there can be some subjective meaning in that for the circuits or electrons then I ran out of things to say.
I do. I legitimately see no conceptual wall between a sophisticated machine and a nervous system.
The fact that some bots can already pass the turing test signifies to me that people can't really identify any mysterious distinction either. But are just looking for a way to be more cosmically important, instead of temporary and mutable. Even though there are already computers more sophisticated than simple lifeforms without this 'something more' needed. Life's mysteries won't need fumbling yogis, just time and syntax.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I just want to try to again clarify the issue I wish to raise with the questions I asked in the OP:

With which meta-ethical theses is materialism logically consistent? I certainly don't see how it is possible to argue that materialism can accommodate any form of moral realism, which entails the reality of objective moral facts--e.g., facts such as denoted by propositions such as “rape is immoral” or “it is good to avoid causing unnecessary suffering”. It's quite odd to see people here suggesting that materialism is compatible with the existence of objective moral facts, and, moreover, that the thesis of materialism does not preclude the ability of persons to choose to engage in moral behavior. In the short while I've been a member of RF, I've often found that the very mention of the phrase “objective moral facts” seems to offend many people, and there is great resistance to the suggestion that people can choose what acts they will engage in.

I can only conclude that logical consistency relegates the materialist to endorsing some form of moral anti-realism as his/her meta-ethical thesis--moral nihilism or relativism--odious and inadequate though these are. In the OP of a thread I posted a while ago, I noted some of the hopefully discomforting ramifications of moral anti-realism: The Social and Political Regressiveness of Moral Anti-realism

Was there anything immoral in white Americans (and colonists before them) importing and subjugating Africans as their slaves? The moral nihilist would deny any immorality in it, and the relativist would have to say that there was nothing ultimately or objectively wrong with it--many white Americans in non-slave states and about 100% of slaves considered slavery abhorrent and inhumane, but, since Americans in Confederate states were willing to try to secede and fight a bloody war in order to maintain the institution of slavery, it was not immoral there, according to the relativist.

Was there anything wrong with Jim Crow laws and other legalized inequalities inflicted upon African Americans after the Civil War? Again, the moral anti-realists can only assert that there was nothing (ultimately or objectively) immoral with such denigration and lawful discriminatory treatment of African Americans.

What was wrong with the ancient doctrine of coverture (in which a woman was deprived of any legal status beyond that of her husband), the denial of suffrage for women, or the non-recognition that a man could rape his wife? Nothing, according to the nihilist; and nothing in those societies that approved of such injustices toward women, according to the relativist. Even today there are countries where women are deprived of the legal status and rights that men enjoy.

In this century in the US, after the Goodridge decisions by the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court in 2003/2004, there were eventually 30-something states that amended their constitutions in order to deny same-sex couples and their children the important rights and benefits that come with the couple's ability to participate in civil marriage. Some of these amendments passed by huge majorities of voters. Did any moral anti-realist speak out against these provisions, express any umbrage about the injustice to same-sex couples and their children? Apparently not, unless they were being inconsistent with their nihilism or relativism.

By not recognizing any wrongs or injustices beyond legal wrongs, moral anti-realists are and will always be social/political regressives, unprogressives. illiberals who lack any impetus for change. Social and political wrongs can never be righted by those who are blind to moral wrongs, that is, blind to wrongs beyond legal wrongs.​


This is not to claim that there are no self-avowed materialists who choose to be vegans or who choose to engage in otherwise moral acts and behaviors. But that claim--the choosing to engage in moral behaviors--alludes to and is premised on two propositions that materialism account for or accommodate: the proposition that there are moral behaviors (that there is an actual, objective difference between moral and immoral acts), and the proposition that a person can choose the acts s/her performs. As far as I can tell, no one here has argued that the thesis of materialism is able to account for or accommodate those two propositions. Am I right or wrong? If I am wrong, then please cite the evidence by which one can conclude that materialism can account for or accommodate those two propositions.

Also, nothing I have said here is to imply that materialism is the only metaphysical thesis that is unable to account for or accommodate those two propositions.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I just want to try to again clarify the issue I wish to raise with the questions I asked in the OP:

With which meta-ethical theses is materialism logically consistent? I certainly don't see how it is possible to argue that materialism can accommodate any form of moral realism, which entails the reality of objective moral facts--e.g., facts such as denoted by propositions such as “rape is immoral” or “it is good to avoid causing unnecessary suffering”. It's quite odd to see people here suggesting that materialism is compatible with the existence of objective moral facts, and, moreover, that the thesis of materialism does not preclude the ability of persons to choose to engage in moral behavior. In the short while I've been a member of RF, I've often found that the very mention of the phrase “objective moral facts” seems to offend many people, and there is great resistance to the suggestion that people can choose what acts they will engage in.

I can only conclude that logical consistency relegates the materialist to endorsing some form of moral anti-realism as his/her meta-ethical thesis--moral nihilism or relativism--odious and inadequate though these are. In the OP of a thread I posted a while ago, I noted some of the hopefully discomforting ramifications of moral anti-realism: The Social and Political Regressiveness of Moral Anti-realism

Was there anything immoral in white Americans (and colonists before them) importing and subjugating Africans as their slaves? The moral nihilist would deny any immorality in it, and the relativist would have to say that there was nothing ultimately or objectively wrong with it--many white Americans in non-slave states and about 100% of slaves considered slavery abhorrent and inhumane, but, since Americans in Confederate states were willing to try to secede and fight a bloody war in order to maintain the institution of slavery, it was not immoral there, according to the relativist.

Was there anything wrong with Jim Crow laws and other legalized inequalities inflicted upon African Americans after the Civil War? Again, the moral anti-realists can only assert that there was nothing (ultimately or objectively) immoral with such denigration and lawful discriminatory treatment of African Americans.

What was wrong with the ancient doctrine of coverture (in which a woman was deprived of any legal status beyond that of her husband), the denial of suffrage for women, or the non-recognition that a man could rape his wife? Nothing, according to the nihilist; and nothing in those societies that approved of such injustices toward women, according to the relativist. Even today there are countries where women are deprived of the legal status and rights that men enjoy.

In this century in the US, after the Goodridge decisions by the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court in 2003/2004, there were eventually 30-something states that amended their constitutions in order to deny same-sex couples and their children the important rights and benefits that come with the couple's ability to participate in civil marriage. Some of these amendments passed by huge majorities of voters. Did any moral anti-realist speak out against these provisions, express any umbrage about the injustice to same-sex couples and their children? Apparently not, unless they were being inconsistent with their nihilism or relativism.

By not recognizing any wrongs or injustices beyond legal wrongs, moral anti-realists are and will always be social/political regressives, unprogressives. illiberals who lack any impetus for change. Social and political wrongs can never be righted by those who are blind to moral wrongs, that is, blind to wrongs beyond legal wrongs.​


This is not to claim that there are no self-avowed materialists who choose to be vegans or who choose to engage in otherwise moral acts and behaviors. But that claim--the choosing to engage in moral behaviors--alludes to and is premised on two propositions that materialism account for or accommodate: the proposition that there are moral behaviors (that there is an actual, objective difference between moral and immoral acts), and the proposition that a person can choose the acts s/her performs. As far as I can tell, no one here has argued that the thesis of materialism is able to account for or accommodate those two propositions. Am I right or wrong? If I am wrong, then please cite the evidence by which one can conclude that materialism can account for or accommodate those two propositions.

Also, nothing I have said here is to imply that materialism is the only metaphysical thesis that is unable to account for or accommodate those two propositions.
Your article writer is an as creationists who say the only way to moral righteousness is through their particular God and everything else is the non-upward thinking of man. Non-progressive blah blah. It starts with an assumption and follows it up with charater assasination.
This video series is obviously more geared to counter Abrahamic moral systems, but it does drive home that you don't need the divine or non-material 'something' (which nobody can actually describe or define) to make meaningful moral judgement. And that subjective does not equal arbitrary.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is not to claim that there are no self-avowed materialists who choose to be vegans or who choose to engage in otherwise moral acts and behaviors. But that claim--the choosing to engage in moral behaviors--alludes to and is premised on two propositions that materialism account for or accommodate: the proposition that there are moral behaviors (that there is an actual, objective difference between moral and immoral acts), and the proposition that a person can choose the acts s/her performs. As far as I can tell, no one here has argued that the thesis of materialism is able to account for or accommodate those two propositions. Am I right or wrong? If I am wrong, then please cite the evidence by which one can conclude that materialism can account for or accommodate those two propositions.

These are questions which I am frankly, not really competent to answer. However, the extracts below should be sufficient to prove that a materialist conception of ethics is possible in a philosophically consistent and coherent way
even if it cannot be validated. Its a short summary of Marxist Ethics (which is of course materialist), but I've avoided the "class" dimensions of freedom and morality as they are not directly relevant.

These are not a reflection of my moral ideas as mine aren't actually as authoritarian or even coherent or well-developed as this. I'm more stuck in the mire of moral relativism and nihilism based on a much less sophisticated understanding of materialism. So this is really a "Model" answer if you wanted a short essay in response to your question.

1. The proposition that a person can choose the acts s/her performs:

Most of the theoretical difficulties people run into when thinking of the problem of freedom result from thinking that freedom is an innate quality of the will. But Freedom is not an innate quality of the will, nor is it any sort of gif or endowment which God or nature has bestowed upon man. It is something which is won- and which is won gradually, bit by bit, created and realised in the course of ages of human social activity.

J.J.Rousseau began his book on "the social contract" with the famous words "Man is born free". But man is not born free. On the contary, man is born with no freedom whatever, but is born as a creature determined by circumstances independent of his will. But thanks to his social life and the laws of its development, he gradually develops in social practice those capacities which make him become free. This he does in struggle with external nature, in social and class struggle, and also in individual struggle. He creates for himself and wins for himself such freedom as he possesses, and so he can never possess more than he has created and won for himself.

Freedom is not an innate quality, nor is it an "all or none" affair. Meta-physicians argue that either we are free or else we are not free. This is to forget that we may be free in some respects but not in others, and that we may be more or less free.

In the argument between voluntarism, which says that the will is not determined, and determinism, which says that the will is determined, Marxism takes the determinist side, since every act of will has a cause. But the important question is not that of whether our actions are determined- since there is no doubt that they are determined- but how and by what they are determined- by external causes or by our own knowledge or our own needs and of how to satisfy them. When the question is put like this, then it is evident that freedom is a matter of degree. We make ourselves free only in so far as we bring it about that our own conscious decision based on knowledge is the thing which determines what we do and on knowledge is the thing which determines what we do and achieve. But such freedom can seldom if ever be absolute. The more it is our own decision based on knowledge which determines our actions and their outcomes, and the less they are determined for us by other factors, the greater is the degree of freedom of action which we have achieved. (p.215-216)

2. The proposition that there are moral behaviours (that there is an actual objective difference between moral and immoral acts)

The stages of the evolution of freedom are closely connected with the evolution of morality, or ethics. The development of morals is, in fact, one side or aspect of the development of freedom, and the various stages of the development of moral ideas are so many stages of the evolution of human freedom.

Many moral philosophers have observed that morality is an expression of freedom and that the moral life has meaning only in so far as people are acting freely. And of course, if all our actions were merely determined consequences of external causes, then there would be no sense in calling them right or wrong, or in saying that we had a duty to do one thing rather than another, since in that case we could not help what we did. In this, these philosophers were evidently right. What they did not observe is that freedom is something which develops socially on the basis of the activities of definite classes, and that the same is true of morals.

Human morality is not an expression of some eternal moral law decreed by heaven and somehow revealed to mankind; nor is it, as Kant imagined, the expression of a "categorical imperative" inherent in the human will; but it is a natural product of men's social organisation. Since men live in society, they necessarily evolve a moral code to regulate their mutual relations and activities in society. This assumes in relation to individuals the appearance of an externally imposed and morally binding force, because of its character of a social regulator of conduct. It assumes the peculiar character of a "moral" force; we do not have to act rightly, but we "ought" to do so.

Morality consists of certain standards and principles of conduct, and says that certain things ought to be done and other things ought not to be done, irrespective of whether individuals want to do them or not, or actually do them or not. The whole sense of moral terms like "good", "bad", "ought", and so on, is contained in the assertion of standards which do not depend on the particular desires, impulses and actions of individuals. And such standards come to be conceived, and necessarily come to be conceived, precisely because of the social necessity of regulating individual conduct.


Of course, it is one thing to conceive and recognise such standards and another thing to operate them. Generally speaking, every society evolves various forms of sanctions to teach and persuade people to do what they ought, ranging from mild praise or blame to systems of reward and punishment- the latter, however, being mostly reserved for actions directly involving security of life or property. But in societies containing class antagonisms, and where people profit at others expense and compete with one another, a large part of morality invariably assumes the form of something which is preached to others but which one tries to evade oneself. [Class] Morality is inseperable from hypocrisy. Finally, when moral standards are not merely often evaded but are placed in doubt and ignored altogether, and when the various moral sanctions vacillate and weaken, that is one sign that the social system concerned is breaking up and changing. (p.224-225)

...

Why Does freedom entail morals? It is because freedom in action is the very opposite of acting on impulses or because of external compulsion. In so far as people act on impulses or because of external compulsion, they are the very reverse of free but are constrained by chance or external causes. People act freely when they themselves, deliberately and knowingly, determine their course of action. Hence in realising and exercising their freedom people create their maxims or principles of action, which constitute their moral ideas. Their morals then correspond to the conditions and aims of their struggle, as determined on the basis of their actual conditions of material life. At the same time, they create institutions and social sanctions which, in this respect, serve as the external embodiment and defence of their morals and of the kind and degree of freedom of action which they have attained or are striving for. (p.227)

Source: The Theory of Knowledge, (1956) By Maurice Cornforth, London, Lawrence & Wishart LTD.
 

Eliab ben Benjamin

Active Member
Premium Member
That you can taste isn't a mystery. And that your experience of taste is unique to you is no more amazing than the experience of taste would be to a computer processor hooked up to the same chemical exchange as tastebuds. You can't access the perspective of the computer, after all. Only your own.
To argue that because the brain is more complex than a computer processor therefore there must be some immaterial component involved is no more logical than when creationists say that a human is more complex than a single called organism therefore evolution couldn't have happened.

Oh I wish I could taste and smell, sadly steering column thru forehead cored out the olfactory process and wounded the hypothalamus ...
 

Eliab ben Benjamin

Active Member
Premium Member
Ow! D: I'm sorry. Hopefully it makes eating healthy easier.

No sadly it makes eating a daily chore, as the memory of taste and smell faded into distant memory, I lost the will to
eat, it now is because I have to, ... perhaps if I had friends or family around me at meal times it could be easier....
but alone.... an effort.. 5' 4" and only 78lbs
 
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