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Matthew, Mark, Luke Vs the Gospel of John

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
That's because Matthew and Luke used Mark and Q. John didn't.
There are too many variances between the gospels, to state they were all just copied from each other.
Partially this is because John is the only gospel in which there exists a theology.
John has a theology, as it matches pharisee Jewish beliefs, of what they thought the messiah would be stating; yet it doesn't mean Yeshua had to have said any of it.
The synoptics don't really have anything coherent enough to be called such. Christology, yes. Theology, not so much.
The gospels have a clear theology, especially when you understand the different schools of thought that they might have come from. So statements such as the "sons of light", comes from where? Questions asked about marriage, are based on which disagreement, within which sect of Judaism?
Let us suppose that the synoptics were really independent, such that their similarities were due to the fact that the authors either received a collection of very similar orally transmitted stories about and sayings from Jesus (or that one or more were eye-witnesses).
Good point! :)
It is still entirely possible for "the disciple whom Jesus loved" to have been an eyewitness and accurately recounted what he saw and heard of Jesus.
We've got one line possibly added at the end of John, which says 'we' collected this information from a disciple; yet throughout John there are numerous witness statements, that only a member of the pharisee high council would've known.
Jesus didn't mean he would destroy the temple and then magically put it back together. Rather, he was being metaphorical, but his accusers did not understand.
There is no evidence to suggest he ever said it, we're told what he stated outside the temple with lots of eye witnesses; what is stated in Matthew and Mark is that 'the 3 days' part was made up. Trying to make a lie fit with the resurrection; doesn't make any sense and doesn't make it true.
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." - Matt. 10:34
That is in a completely different context, about separating the house of Israel... The point in the turning over of the tables, is that, what we find in John is an exaggeration of the facts, to suggest an aggressive egotistical nature overall.
Statements such as "All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them." could be misapplied as saying the prophets, and comes across as egotistical, when Yeshua confirmed the prophets in the synoptic gospels.
If I say I am not going to do something and I mean it, and then change my mind, am I lying? You seem to be grasping at straws here.
Agreed in some contexts, it is a point Muslims mentioned, on stating how John is used by Jews to undermine Yeshua as being the messiah. Added it to the list, as it goes to show that the things we find in John overall, are a misrepresentation of character, and there are loads more.
Yet is found in the most pivotal place in all the gospels in Mark. It is found in Matthew too, just not there.
Considering the 8x I Am statements are not found in the other gospels; we don't find Yeshua speaking like that anywhere else, it is more likely John is made up, and is claiming jesus to be something he warned against.
The verses in Mark, isn't found in Matthew and Luke; even though you claim they all copied each other. Thus as stated in the law, we use more than one witness, to establish a case.
These aren't incompatible statements.
They're contradictory statements, if you remove John's theology from your understanding first. In the synoptic gospels, Yeshua points to God in heaven; the ideas presented in John are Pharisee beliefs, that we see Paul also teaching.

Thus Christianity is established on Pharisee beliefs, and not the teachings of Yeshua. :innocent:
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
If salvation matters, then only Christianity saves.
If salvation is out of concern, you don't need a religion at all. Simply pick any religion or no religion, live your life span then it's all done.


That said, if God would like to judge humans, He needs to maintain the singularity of His Word. He needs to assign an authority (His representative on earth) as a guardian of His Word. Otherwise, there will be multiple versions of the Bible. The Bible Canon is thus formed this way.

Or else, there could be 2 versions of the Bible, one with John's gospel the other without. "John's gospel is a false gospel" thus remains a personal unauthenticated speculation.

To put it another way, you don't need to worry about that John's gospel is false. Your attention should be in that "what if it is true".
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Your attention should be in that "what if it is true".
In this world full of lies; it is far easier to establish the fallacy in a subject first, before trying to establish the truth, built upon lies.
If salvation matters, then only Christianity saves.
If Yeshua's name means salvation, and it is his words that we will be judged by; if you follow Christianity which contradicts him, then clearly you're not listening to him.
That said, if God would like to judge humans, He needs to maintain the singularity of His Word.
The Bible does what it states:
Throughout the Tanakh there are prophecies of a snare and deception, Yeshua then states they will use the terms Ego I-mee (I Am) and Eggizo (the time draws near) to deceive many. This has blatantly happened, John uses 'I Am' 8 times, to try and make jesus look like he is saying he was god. Paul and Simon the stone (petros), created the Christian church on these concepts. :innocent:
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are too many variances between the gospels, to state they were all just copied from each other.

Very true. They didn't all copy from one another. Rather, the evidence is overwhelmingly strong that Matthew and Luke used Mark and both also used an independent sources generally referred to as Q. The power of the evidence isn't that the sources are virtually copies of one another (they aren't). For each of the synoptics, we have thousands of manuscripts that actually ARE copies but every single one contains variants (mostly spelling errors and the like).


Rather, the evidence comes from the fact that the authors did not copy one another but from a variety of indications that they are interdependent.


You may or may not have come across research in fields as diverse as cognitive psychology and criminal studies on witness testimony. People who saw the exact same thing tend to differ in relatively radical ways in how they describe it. Greek allows for differences in descriptions and phrasing that English does not. For example, most verbs in English have maybe two forms (e.g., “live” “lives”, “buy” “bought”, etc.). In Greek, each verb has a few hundred. Nouns, pronouns, and adjectives also have various forms, and the word order in Greek is extremely flexible. So when a document is not only largely ordered at the macro scale according to a similar document, but also is largely made up of lines that are almost or exactly identical to another document, there really isn’t another way to explain this other than that one used the other. This is the case here. The author of Luke actually admits to knowing previous sources in the prologue/dedication.


John has a theology, as it matches pharisee Jewish beliefs

It doesn’t come close to any Jewish beliefs, and few Jewish sects of that time could differ more from the theology of John than the Pharisees. Also, as our sources for the Pharisees are mostly the NT, Josephus, & Philo I am curious as to your basis for your understanding of the Pharisees.


of what they thought the messiah would be stating

We don’t have any testament as to what, if any singular concept, the Pharisees believed about the messiah.


The gospels have a clear theology

Expressed where?


So statements such as the "sons of light", comes from where?

An very diverse collection of writings recovered from Qumran that is probably the remains from an Essene group.

Questions asked about marriage, are based on which disagreement, within which sect of Judaism?

Until Jesus & the NT, no culture or religion forbade divorce.


We've got one line possibly added at the end of John, which says 'we' collected this information from a disciple; yet throughout John there are numerous witness statements, that only a member of the pharisee high council would've known.

The Pharisees weren’t priests and weren’t among the elite, but were (so far as all our evidence suggests) isolationist in nature yet still a group supported by the populous and not the elite. Also, all the passion narratives contain information that the gospels themselves state couldn’t have come from any named or known eyewitness.


There is no evidence to suggest he ever said it

Of course there is. If there weren’t, you wouldn’t be arguing he didn’t because that wouldn’t even occur to you. There is, however a great deal of evidence. Mark, Matthew, and John all present us with evidence that Jesus said this. You have decided to interpret Matthew in a particular way and ignore the components of Mark that make rather clear why Mark equates these accusations with falsehoods, and used this to discount John. Even were you correct, that’s still a fair amount of evidence (and relative to evidence from antiquity in general, it’s an enormous amount of evidence).


what is stated in Matthew and Mark is that 'the 3 days' part was made up.

No, it isn’t.


That is in a completely different context

So what? You read into the addition of a rope in a description of the temple account, concluding that this was added to make Jesus violent, yet ignore a blatant, clear statement we are told Jesus said that states he came to bring conflict and violence? You can’t have it both ways.


The point in the turning over of the tables, is that, what we find in John is an exaggeration of the facts, to suggest an aggressive egotistical nature overall.

We don’t have the facts. We have accounts of what happened in a brief and summary form, and you’ve chosen to not only focus on one variant here but also to read into something that isn’t actually implied.


when Yeshua confirmed the prophets in the synoptic gospels.

You do know why they are called the synoptic gospels, yes?


Considering the 8x I Am statements are not found in the other gospels

Then what? Mark has Jesus say “I am” in the passion narrative in front of the high priest and in response to the question “are you the messiah, the son of the blessed [god]?” Saying “I am” is part of normal speech, and even when uttered in John as signifying more it never even remotely approaches the significance in Mark. And, strangely enough, Matthew omits it. As does Luke.


The verses in Mark, isn't found in Matthew and Luke

I quoted an example in Greek from Matthew for you.


that we see Paul also teaching.

The one person whom we actually know as an author (as opposed to the anonymous authors of the gospels, whose works were attributed based on tradition that was in part influenced by Papias, which gives us reason to think that the apart from anything else the tradition that Matthew wrote the gospel Matthew is baseless).
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
With a careful examination of Yeshua's character within Matthew, Mark and Luke, we can clearly see an overall matching concept within the first 3; yet on examining John it is a completely different character, with numerous contradictions in theology and testimony overall.
  • Yeshua answered in parables, there are no real parables within the gospel of John.
John 10:1-18 does not qualify?

[/QUOTE]
  • The destroying of the temple, and then the bit about 'it being rebuilt in 3 days' is a lie, made up by false witnesses, according to both Matthew and Mark; whereas in John it is told as truth, and claimed to be in reference to the body. When it is entirely clear from the witness statements, that Yeshua stated: "not one brick shall stand on top of another." Clearly he didn't say 3 days, as the temple still hasn't been rebuilt.[/QUOTE]
John 2:19, says that Jesus would destroy this temple (himself) and was using parable-like language; temple and body.
John 2:20-21 says that others said Jesus was talking about a structure.

Mark 14:58 says that others said that Jesus would destroy this temple made of hands and build another without hands (himself). Jesus never says anything and all testimonies did not agree.

Matthew 26:61 says that after the Sanhedrin tried to find a reason to kill Jesus, they could not find any. Then two others said that Jesus was able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days. Jesus never says anything.

Luke 21:5-6 talks about a temple (structure) and Jesus says that every one (stone) will be thrown down.
Luke 21 NIV - The Widow’s Offering - As Jesus - Bible Gateway

So, what do we have? Jesus says in John that he would destroy himself. In Mark Jesus says nothing. In Mathew Jesus says nothing. In Luke, Jesus talks about a temple (structure) being destroyed.

It is clear to me that in John, Jesus talks about the destruction and resurrection of his body. Mark and Matthew are a wash because they are talking about hearsay and Luke actually talks about the destruction of the temple of God (Solomon's temple).

[/QUOTE]
  • Within the synoptic gospels, we find Yeshua turning over the money tables, and quoting scripture at them. Within John we find jesus being accused of tying knots at the end of a chord, thus making a whip, and then driving them out; this is used to portray Yeshua as being violent.[/QUOTE]
Call it what you want. The Bible calls it zeal and so do I.

[/QUOTE]
  • jesus in the gospel of John is said to be asked to a party by his disciples, which he answers no to; he then goes to the party secretly; this is used to say that he lied.[/QUOTE]
I can only guess you are talking about John 71-13, right?
John 7 NIV - Jesus Goes to the Festival of - Bible Gateway

No, just wanted to be incognito.

[/QUOTE]
  • When asked about eternal life, Yeshua stated to follow the commandments and what's more to give up wealth and follow him. In John all you need to do is believe in his name, and that God sent him to the Jews.[/QUOTE]
Again, I can only guess you are talking about Mark 10:17-31 and John 11:25-26, respectively, right?

Well, John 3:16-21 talks about deeds. Especially John 3:20-21

[/QUOTE]
  • Yeshua stated to receive grace, you should give grace, and should do good works without questioning reward. John creates the statement the lamb of God, which people then think overall implies you get grace from a human sacrifice.[/QUOTE]
  • Where as Yeshua sent his disciples out into the lost sheep of Israel; in John they are sent out into the world.
  • Where as within the synoptic gospels and in prophecy, 'he was lead up silently' to Pilate and spoke a word in response. In John there is a long conversation about being 'the king of Israel, thus giving Pilate reason to kill him'.
  • Yeshua warns against those that would come after in all 3 gospels, and use the term "ego i-mee" (I Am) to deceive many; which is used 7x (+1) within John. These statements are then used to portray jesus as claiming himself to be God. If we examine the synoptic gospels in Greek, we can see that Yeshua used that term for God.
  • Yeshua said 'call no man on this earth your father'; whereas in John we find 'i, and the father are one' and 'that he whom has seen me, has seen the father'.
  • Throughout the Tanakh, and then in the synoptic gospels, the holy spirit existed; why would jesus then need to send it in the gospel of John. :confused:
  • Yeshua relates all doing the work of God (peacemakers), can become children of God; we find the term 'the only begotten son' used only within John.[/QUOTE]
I am going to need those scriptures please.
 

Mequa

Neo-Epicurean
Do your home work. Matthew contains more hell concept explicitly.

Matthew 25:46 (NIV)
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 24 and 25 make it clear that "hypocrites" get Hell (whether interpreted as conscious eternal torture or annihilation), while the "righteous" get eternal life.

And yet it is not until the Gospel of John (written later) that we get the idea spelled out that Jesus is the only way and everyone who is not a Christian goes to Hell. This is quite a major development of the Christian idea of Hell. It's the different between eternal punishment for wicked behaviour (coercing people to be good), and eternal punishment for a thought crime (coercing people to blindly believe). John is an Orwellian nightmare.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
This is to complete the answer to this post;

With a careful examination of Yeshua's character within Matthew, Mark and Luke, we can clearly see an overall matching concept within the first 3; yet on examining John it is a completely different character, with numerous contradictions in theology and testimony overall.
1) Where as Yeshua sent his disciples out into the lost sheep of Israel; in John they are sent out into the world.

The first sending was at the beginning of Jesus' teaching ministry.
The second was at the close of HIS ministry and resurrection into heaven.(Back to the Father.)

2) Yeshua said 'call no man on this earth your father'; whereas in John we find 'i, and the father are one' and 'that he whom has seen me, has seen the father'.

Neither did Jesus ask/tell HIS disciples to call HIM Father. The character of Jesus reflected the same characteristics as the Father.

3) Throughout the Tanakh, and then in the synoptic gospels, the holy spirit existed; why would jesus then need to send it in the gospel of John.

Yes, The Holy Spirit has "existed", but as Jesus has been a personal comfort to them, now the H.S. will be that abiding spirit to all who accept in belief. No difference---John just expressed it in his writing of Jesus' mission. As Paul confirmed---the body of the Believer would be the H.S. temple.

4) Yeshua relates all doing the work of God (peacemakers), can become children of God; we find the term 'the only begotten son' used only within John.]/quote]

Those "peacemakers" do become the adopted children of GOD. but Jesus is the, "monogenes"=one of a kind, Son of GOD.
Look at these verses, Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38; Heb:11:17; Luke 20:36; John11:52; 1John 3:10

All falseness has been in your supposed article/posts---as shown.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
This is not what I believe John is saying. But I do agree that Christianity has run wild with these verses.

"No one... ...except through me

If one were to ask an evangelical Christian if a person can be saved without accepting Jesus as their savior, which to them is synonymous with being born again, you would be answered with, "well, Jesus said...", and they would go on to quote their end-all-debate passage from the Gospel of John. It is an answer that is to be understood as "no", and implied that such a person will certainly spend eternity in the torments of the lake of fire.

I have always found it strange.

If people already believe in God, why would they need to belief in Jesus, or any other prophets (like Moses or Muhammad)?

I thought all they need to believe in, is just god. Is it really important to go through Jesus or Muhammad or any others?
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Jeremy Mason said:
John 10:1-18 does not qualify?
The "wikipedia" is not scriptural evidence. It is a compilation of man's thoughts and opinions on many subjects---and concerning religion biased.
The Wikipedia section has the sources of scholars and official sites; all stating that it is 'metaphor', rather than a parable. :rolleyes:

So according to the church it doesn't qualify; though personally i found that a good answer, and find it like a parable in many ways. Still doesn't sound like Yeshua tho; yet it is interesting they've made that up. :innocent:
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
Simplelogic said:
This is not what I believe John is saying. But I do agree that Christianity has run wild with these verses.

"No one... ...except through me

I have always found it strange.

If people already believe in God, why would they need to belief in Jesus, or any other prophets (like Moses or Muhammad)?

I thought all they need to believe in, is just god. Is it really important to go through Jesus or Muhammad or any others?

Gnostic, No! You admit that at one time you "believed". However, the "strange" part is that you turned your back on the "truth" for the love of the "myth".

What John wrote is contrary to those "myths" one proposes against him.---There is a Creator GOD---worth listening to in all things of value---like "Life."
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I have always found it strange.
If people already believe in God, why would they need to belief in Jesus, or any other prophets (like Moses or Muhammad)?
I thought all they need to believe in, is just god. Is it really important to go through Jesus or Muhammad or any others?
Very good point!
Within the synoptic gospels, the concept is to follow Yeshua and his teachings; thus creating a world where we give up wealth, feed the poor, share communally and realize life is free. :innocent:

Within the gospel of John we have to believe in jesus and that god sent him; we do have to accept his commandments, which at least means some of his teachings in the gospels get followed. :imp:
Within Paul's letters, we've got to believe in the death, and resurrection of jesus; we don't have to accept his teachings, just accept the belief to be a Christian. :smilingimp:
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
The Wikipedia section has the sources of scholars and official sites; all stating that it is 'metaphor', rather than a parable. :rolleyes:

The serpent claimed to be wise and knowledgeable, also. Eve was convinced by his subtle-ness. Wikipedia is compiled by persons like you and me---and a set of man made guidelines.
A Creator GOD doesn't fit into their "denial" of the truth.

So according to the church it doesn't qualify; though personally i found that a good answer, and find it like a parable in many ways. Still doesn't sound like Yeshua tho; yet it is interesting they've made that up. :innocent:

No! It doesn't qualify because the Scriptures were placed before mankind long before the "editors of wikipedia" began to place their assumed opinions upon the internet.
You are correct in that wikipedia does not "sound like Jesus"---so why take material from it on these subjects?
I didn't make it up---they printed it.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
You are correct in that wikipedia does not "sound like Jesus"--
Nope the gospel of John doesn't sound like Yeshua, for one listen to the parables.... They are a story, so for instance.... The kingdom of heaven is like a man who went out and brought a field....There were two sons...etc... :innocent:
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
With a careful examination of Yeshua's character within Matthew, Mark and Luke, we can clearly see an overall matching concept within the first 3; yet on examining John it is a completely different character, with numerous contradictions in theology and testimony overall.
  • Yeshua answered in parables, there are no real parables within the gospel of John.
  • The destroying of the temple, and then the bit about 'it being rebuilt in 3 days' is a lie, made up by false witnesses, according to both Matthew and Mark; whereas in John it is told as truth, and claimed to be in reference to the body. When it is entirely clear from the witness statements, that Yeshua stated: "not one brick shall stand on top of another." Clearly he didn't say 3 days, as the temple still hasn't been rebuilt.
  • Within the synoptic gospels, we find Yeshua turning over the money tables, and quoting scripture at them. Within John we find jesus being accused of tying knots at the end of a chord, thus making a whip, and then driving them out; this is used to portray Yeshua as being violent.
  • jesus in the gospel of John is said to be asked to a party by his disciples, which he answers no to; he then goes to the party secretly; this is used to say that he lied.
  • When asked about eternal life, Yeshua stated to follow the commandments and what's more to give up wealth and follow him. In John all you need to do is believe in his name, and that God sent him to the Jews.
  • Yeshua stated to receive grace, you should give grace, and should do good works without questioning reward. John creates the statement the lamb of God, which people then think overall implies you get grace from a human sacrifice.
  • Where as Yeshua sent his disciples out into the lost sheep of Israel; in John they are sent out into the world.
  • Where as within the synoptic gospels and in prophecy, 'he was lead up silently' to Pilate and spoke a word in response. In John there is a long conversation about being 'the king of Israel, thus giving Pilate reason to kill him'.
  • Yeshua warns against those that would come after in all 3 gospels, and use the term "ego i-mee" (I Am) to deceive many; which is used 7x (+1) within John. These statements are then used to portray jesus as claiming himself to be God. If we examine the synoptic gospels in Greek, we can see that Yeshua used that term for God.
  • Yeshua said 'call no man on this earth your father'; whereas in John we find 'i, and the father are one' and 'that he whom has seen me, has seen the father'.
  • Throughout the Tanakh, and then in the synoptic gospels, the holy spirit existed; why would jesus then need to send it in the gospel of John. :confused:
  • Yeshua relates all doing the work of God (peacemakers), can become children of God; we find the term 'the only begotten son' used only within John.
This is still only a start to the many contradictions within John, as clearly there are numerous errors in theology throughout....
Take into account, that who ever wrote the gospel of John, had a good knowledge of everything spoken behind closed doors of the pharisees and high council; as it records word for word, conversations that were private.
It also is only found within the gospel of John, about a private meeting between Nicodemus the pharisee, and jesus at night. It is not even mentioned in the synoptic gospels about being 'born again'; so the only person likely able to record the conversations found within the gospel of John, would be Nicodemus. :cool:
The four gospels are according to each individual and their finding of the Lord. Matthew has his own testimony, as well as Mark, Luke, and John. They are not historic events. Worshiping the image of the beast in which everyone practically in the world does, is worshipping the image of a man. Who or what is the Christ is the golden question? Christ coming in the flesh. Internally. Nothing external about it. The words the four authors used are words which were spoken internally by them of the Lord. . Every man has a Spirit and blood.... That's the life in them and the truth. The mind, the flesh, the rest of the body... Is carnal and deceived until spiritually transformed to see the oneness of the world. No race, no religion, no gender. God is not a respector of persons. The Lord was always made manifest inside of men, every creature. He's the Spirit and the blood and life in all men. The son of man: the lamb slain from the foundation of the world so every man so every individual can have life. The entire scriptures are speaking of the human body from an internal and spiritual perspective. The entire creation was regarding the human body. The entire coming of the Lord is not physical but internal to conquer God's enemies, which is sin. Not literal humans being destroyed. Scripture is universal and of one truth. Mans carnal mind and imagination has just created a God in their own image. Every religion around the world has a piece to the truth. Unity. Oneness. We are all one. There is only one truth. The tabernacle, the tribes... Everything is inside of you... The north and the south battling is nothing more than the Spirit within man fighting the Satan(Ego and self gratification of the flesh.) The Christ is something else in other religions. Regardless, we all have the same creator and one God, and one life and here is only one truth. Scriptures are never meant to be taken literally. As you can see, there is nothing but divide amongst own religions, of the world. Peace to all.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
The destroying of the temple, and then the bit about 'it being rebuilt in 3 days' is a lie, made up by false witnesses, according to both Matthew and Mark; whereas in John it is told as truth, and claimed to be in reference to the body. When it is entirely clear from the witness statements, that Yeshua stated: "not one brick shall stand on top of another." Clearly he didn't say 3 days, as the temple still hasn't been rebuilt.

According to the Gospels the Temple has been rebuilt, but not with human hands. The new Temple is not made with brick and mortar. The Gospels are a reaction to the destruction of the Temple. All of them were written after the year 70 AD. The authors of the Gospels saw the end of the Temple period.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Even though the Gospels may differ, if you triangulate you can find Jesus’s position. Gee, I love metaphors, LOL
 

we-live-now

Active Member
With a careful examination of Yeshua's character within Matthew, Mark and Luke, we can clearly see an overall matching concept within the first 3; yet on examining John it is a completely different character, with numerous contradictions in theology and testimony overall.
  • Yeshua answered in parables, there are no real parables within the gospel of John.
  • The destroying of the temple, and then the bit about 'it being rebuilt in 3 days' is a lie, made up by false witnesses, according to both Matthew and Mark; whereas in John it is told as truth, and claimed to be in reference to the body. When it is entirely clear from the witness statements, that Yeshua stated: "not one brick shall stand on top of another." Clearly he didn't say 3 days, as the temple still hasn't been rebuilt.
  • Within the synoptic gospels, we find Yeshua turning over the money tables, and quoting scripture at them. Within John we find jesus being accused of tying knots at the end of a chord, thus making a whip, and then driving them out; this is used to portray Yeshua as being violent.
  • jesus in the gospel of John is said to be asked to a party by his disciples, which he answers no to; he then goes to the party secretly; this is used to say that he lied.
  • When asked about eternal life, Yeshua stated to follow the commandments and what's more to give up wealth and follow him. In John all you need to do is believe in his name, and that God sent him to the Jews.
  • Yeshua stated to receive grace, you should give grace, and should do good works without questioning reward. John creates the statement the lamb of God, which people then think overall implies you get grace from a human sacrifice.
  • Where as Yeshua sent his disciples out into the lost sheep of Israel; in John they are sent out into the world.
  • Where as within the synoptic gospels and in prophecy, 'he was lead up silently' to Pilate and spoke a word in response. In John there is a long conversation about being 'the king of Israel, thus giving Pilate reason to kill him'.
  • Yeshua warns against those that would come after in all 3 gospels, and use the term "ego i-mee" (I Am) to deceive many; which is used 7x (+1) within John. These statements are then used to portray jesus as claiming himself to be God. If we examine the synoptic gospels in Greek, we can see that Yeshua used that term for God.
  • Yeshua said 'call no man on this earth your father'; whereas in John we find 'i, and the father are one' and 'that he whom has seen me, has seen the father'.
  • Throughout the Tanakh, and then in the synoptic gospels, the holy spirit existed; why would jesus then need to send it in the gospel of John. :confused:
  • Yeshua relates all doing the work of God (peacemakers), can become children of God; we find the term 'the only begotten son' used only within John.
This is still only a start to the many contradictions within John, as clearly there are numerous errors in theology throughout....
Take into account, that who ever wrote the gospel of John, had a good knowledge of everything spoken behind closed doors of the pharisees and high council; as it records word for word, conversations that were private.
It also is only found within the gospel of John, about a private meeting between Nicodemus the pharisee, and jesus at night. It is not even mentioned in the synoptic gospels about being 'born again'; so the only person likely able to record the conversations found within the gospel of John, would be Nicodemus. :cool:

Here is something I am sure you never heard before. Get ready.

Is it possible that John's gospel account is EVEN more true because it is the view from a HIGHER spiritual realm of man? The realm of man's "spiritual master"? See Romans 6.

We know and usually agree that man has a body, soul and spirit, but I see the Bible reveals man has a 4th realm (plus more but I won't go into that here!) that has been hidden from us - his master spirit who is "above" man's spirit and is in total control of it. Mans spirit is a slave to this master spirit who is either "righteousness" (Jesus) or "sin" (Satan).

Want to consider entertaining this crazy notion?

Study the accounts of Matthew, Mark and Luke when Jesus is sent to the wilderness to be tempted. Does he go "up" to get there or "down" or neither? This is shocking when you see what the Bible is really saying and who and why the 4 accounts are often different. I have found it's not a story from the natural, outer-most realm like we think it is (and where our natural bodies are now). It's all spiritual and a story of man's spirit and soulish, inner being (but also includes his spiritual body which is part of his outer soul and natural body). Once a person sees this, they will NEVER look at the Bible the same and will NOT be able to get enough of it.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
There is a lot to unravel here and it is a bit daunting to consider covering all these points at once. So I will not. Bits and pieces as I hope to be timely. I know from personal experience that when something difficult and hard to understand needed to be impressed upon me, information would come at a steady stream till the required understanding was undeniable. It was the steady stream that was needed. Too much or too little would have ruined the effect.

Anyhow, I came here directed from a different thread regarding differences of theology between John and the other 3 gospels. While 92% of John's gospel is new material, I disagree that the theology is different. First wiz and I were discussing the Hebrew to English and Greek to English translations of "I AM". 2 languages imperfectly translated into 1 language and then translators trying to force a title out of the Greek account to match their own theology. It just does not make any sense. Neither Ex 3:14 nor John 8:58 should have been translated as imprecisely as "I AM" and John 8:58 was never a title to begin with.

Now the discussion is about Zech 11, and how it supposedly only fits with 3 of the gospels and not with John. As i understand it, sheeplike people were “the flock meant for the killing” in that governmental shepherds were exploiting them. With one staff called “Pleasantness” and the other “Union,” Zechariah acted like a shepherd carrying a staff to guide the flock and a rod to ward off beasts. (Psalm 23:4) He foreshadowed Jesus, who was sent to be a spiritual shepherd but was rejected by the Jews. As Zechariah broke the staff Pleasantness, God quit dealing pleasantly with the Jews, breaking his covenant with them. Then he calls for his wages, and they weigh him out 30 pieces of silver. Jehovah orders Zechariah to throw it into the treasury and, with superlative sarcasm, says, “the magnificent value with which they valued me.” (11:12,13) This found a parallel in Mt 27:5,6. The timing fits with the "nailing [of the Law] to the torture stake." (Col 2:14) And as Zechariah broke the staff Union, God’s canceling of the Law covenant with Israel left the Jews without a theocratic bond of union. Their religious disunity worked out disastrously for them with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 C.E. (This is one of those passages I should also discuss with @Simplelogic as it is his belief that the Law Covenant can never end.)

I do not see how Zech 11 supports Mt and counters John at the same time. @wizanda you many need to flesh out your reasoning for me so I can see where you are coming from more clearly.
 
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