Maya?

[Satyamavejayanti]

I am trying to understand the concept of Maya, need help.

No long post please, treat me as a 4 year old who knows nothing.

Will ask 1 at a time.

1) Is Maya Eternal

 

[Surya Deva]

1) Yes, Maya is eternal. Why? Because there has be a substratum for all the phenomena in the universe and this substratum cannot be Brahman, because Brahman is the opposite of phenomena(Brahman is infinite, consciousness, partless) whereas the world of phenomena is finite, material, divisible, changing, composite, the world of phenomena issues from something which is of the nature of that, and this is known as the gunas the consistuent forces which cause change and transformation. Thus the world of phenomena is resolved back to its unmanifest cause and that is Maya.

Maya is not an independent existent though, for Maya's existence depends on Brahman. Hence why it is said Maya, constituted of the gunas is a power of Brahman, which is itself beyond the gunas and totally independent of Maya(svatantra) Hence Brahman who becomes enveloped by the power of Maya never actually becomes corrupted by Maya.

How do we know the existence of Maya? The existence of Maya is known from the effects in the world and the products of maya intellect, mind, sense organs etc. The common properties of all these effects is they are made of the gunas(forces of change, transformation, evolution) and hence have a common substratum and this is Maya.

The theory of Maya is absolutely central to Advaita because without the theory of Maya Advaita would become unintelligible.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Surya Deva;3092491]1) Yes, Maya is eternal. Why? Because there has be a substratum for all the phenomena in the universe and this substratum cannot be Brahman, because Brahman is the opposite of phenomena(Brahman is infinite, consciousness, partless) whereas the world of phenomena is finite, material, divisible, changing, composite, the world of phenomena issues from something which is of the nature of that, and this is known as the gunas the consistuent forces which cause change and transformation. Thus the world of phenomena is resolved back to its unmanifest cause and that is Maya.

Ok, thanks.

Maya is eternal that has been established.

Also answers my question if this world is a manifestation of Brahman, which its not, as you established.

2) So Maya is just a name for the existing world that we see?

Maya is not an independent existent though, for Maya's existence depends on Brahman. Hence why it is said Maya, constituted of the gunas is a power of Brahman, which is itself beyond the gunas and totally independent of Maya(svatantra) Hence Brahman who becomes enveloped by the power of Maya never actually becomes corrupted by Maya.

3) So Maya is Guna of Nirguna Brahman?

How do we know the existence of Maya? The existence of Maya is known from the effects in the world and the products of maya intellect, mind, sense organs etc. The common properties of all these effects is they are made of the gunas(forces of change, transformation, evolution) and hence have a common substratum and this is Maya.

Kool, So Maya is eternal and it exists, am i right?

 

[Surya Deva]

2) So Maya is just a name for the existing world that we see?

Yes close, the entire empirical reality of samsara from the highest dimension of sattva to the lowest dimension of tamas(triloka) is all Maya. This includes the entities we call souls and ishvara, which are merely superimpositions of Brahman on the products of Maya, ego(ahamkara) and intellect(mahat/buddhi) respectively. They are ghosts in the machine so to speak.

3) So Maya is Guna of Nirguna Brahman?

No, Maya is Saguna Brahman because Maya is possessed of the qualities of the gunas. What this means is, that when you perceive Brahman through the prism of Maya you see Brahman distorted through the gunas.

Nirguna Brahman is Brahman experienced purely without distortion through the gunas of Maya.

Kool, So Maya is eternal and it exists, am i right?

Yes Maya is eternal, but Maya is neither described to be totally existent or totally non-existent. This is because Maya has no independent existence of Brahman and is a creative power which belongs to Brahman. The best way to explain Maya is like a holographic projection emanating from Brahman and hence Maya is holographic and all the products of Maya are holograms. Including the body.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Surya Deva;3093203]Yes close, the entire empirical reality of samsara from the highest dimension of sattva to the lowest dimension of tamas(triloka) is all Maya. This includes the entities we call souls and ishvara, which are merely superimpositions of Brahman on the products of Maya, ego(ahamkara) and intellect(mahat/buddhi) respectively. They are ghosts in the machine so to speak.

Ok, so Maya is all that we see and know including Atman, being illusion, which then will include the notion of illusion itself as a illusion.
Maya could be illusion of a illusion.

No, Maya is Saguna Brahman because Maya is possessed of the qualities of the gunas. What this means is, that when you perceive Brahman through the prism of Maya you see Brahman distorted through the gunas.

Nirguna Brahman is Brahman experienced purely without distortion through the gunas of Maya.

Is Maya a attribute or is it substance of the Brahman?

because saguna and Nirguna Brahman are the same existing entity.

because the maya has not a independent existence, being eternal Saguna brahman (never ending), would mean that the notion of a Nirguna Brahman is just a illusion.

Yes Maya is eternal, but Maya is neither described to be totally existent or totally non-existent. This is because Maya has no independent existence of Brahman and is a creative power which belongs to Brahman. The best way to explain Maya is like a holographic projection emanating from Brahman and hence Maya is holographic and all the products of Maya are holograms. Including the body.

Ok so Maya is both sat and asat?

Its like something can be cold and hot at the same time.

Then i can infer that we cant logically determine the nature of Maya.
No means of knowledge testify to the existence of Maya.
The foundation of knowledge is basically Maya hence Knowledge will be illusion, even knowledge of Maya?

if Maya is eternal then the world would also be eternal as being the creation of Maya, the illusion is eternal, never ending.
Escape from a eternal illusion is impossible.

Sorry, these are the questions that arise in my mind every time i try to think of Maya.

 

[Surya Deva]

Ok, so Maya is all that we see and know including Atman, being illusion, which then will include the notion of illusion itself as a illusion.
Maya could be illusion of a illusion.

Not Atman, Jivatman. Maya is not an illusion itself, Maya is the producer of illusions. Hence Maya is described like a great magician or illusionist that produces illusions, but the illusionist itself is not an illusion.

There has be a substratum for all the products we see in the world in which all these products can be resolved. As we know that all products in the world re: intellect, ego, mind, sense organs, motor organs, subtle elements and gross element are modifications of one another and evolve forth one from another and are possessed of the properties of the gunas(change, transformation and inertia) we know that they are resolvable into the the substratum of maya.

Now why is Maya a power of illusion then? Maya is a power of illusion because Brahman which is the only fundamental real reality which is not possessed of the properties of the gunas is infinite, eternal, unchanging and absolute pure consciousness and transcendent, so cannot actually produce Maya which is inert and possessed of the properties of the gunas. Thus we say Maya is actually a holographic projection that emanates from Brahman(hence we say Maya is its power) and spans across a continuum from intellect(sattvic) down to the gross eleents(tamasic) At the highest level of intellect where Brahman is reflected in the intellect Maya creates Ishvara and then Ishvara creates egos which are localized units of intellect, and Brahman reflected in those seen as Jivas. That is to say both Jiva and Ishvara are illusory products of Maya, but the reflected consciousness of Brahman lends them perceived sentience.

Is Maya a attribute or is it substance of the Brahman?

because saguna and Nirguna Brahman are the same existing entity.

because the maya has not a independent existence, being eternal Saguna brahman (never ending), would mean that the notion of a Nirguna Brahman is just a illusion.

Maya is not an substance, but a power of Brahman which projects out of Brahman like a holographic projection. Although Brahman is that holographic projection as well, the holographic projection is not Brahman i.e., Brahman is Maya, but Maya is not Brahman. Like the clay is pot, but the pot is not clay.

The projection of Maya does indeed come to the end when the projection is withdrawn into Brahman in the same way a spider projects a web and then withdraws the web back into itself. The power of projecting a web belongs to the spider, the web is the own substance of the spider, but at the same time the web is distinct from the spider. The web has no independent existence from the spider, but spider is independent from the web. Similarly, the power of projecting maya belongs to Brahman, Maya is of the substance of Brahman, but at the same time Maya is distinct from Brahman. Maya has no independent existence of Brahman, but Brahman is independent of Maya.

Ok so Maya is both sat and asat?

Its like something can be cold and hot at the same time.

No, I did not tell you Maya was both true and both false. That is obviously logically false. Maya is neither totally non-existent or totally existent. As in the analogy of the spider and the web, the web is neither totally existent or totally non-existent. It depends on the spider for its existence and ultimately the spider withdraws it into itself.

if Maya is eternal then the world would also be eternal as being the creation of Maya, the illusion is eternal, never ending.
Escape from a eternal illusion is impossible.

Sorry, these are the questions that arise in my mind every time i try to think of Maya.

This is explained as Maya's creation has a beginning, it also has an end. The Jiva having a beginning will also have an end.

 

[Madhuri]

Kool, So Maya is eternal and it exists, am i right?

To keep it in simple 4 year old terms, Maya is an aspect of the Supreme (or whatever you label it) and because the Supreme is eternal, any aspect of it is also eternal. And because Maya is an aspect of the Supreme, who is also known as the Real, nothing that is part of the Real can be said to be un-Real.

Therefore Maya is real and eternal.

BUT. It does not follow that the soul is eternally under the influence of Maya.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Surya Deva;3094562]Not Atman, Jivatman. Maya is not an illusion itself, Maya is the producer of illusions. Hence Maya is described like a great magician or illusionist that produces illusions, but the illusionist itself is not an illusion.

OK

The illusionist in this instance is Brahman, the Maya is its power of illusion, but never can the illusionist get deluded by his own illusion.

The illusionist always does trick to delude a different entity to himself.

Are you saying that the Brahman creating Maya and then getting entangled in it himself?

Like any magician, who has the power to do magic will use it not on himself but on others.

Jivatma is the personality of a Individual, atman is the eternal "soul". am i right.

Now why is Maya a power of illusion then? Maya is a power of illusion because Brahman which is the only fundamental real reality which is not possessed of the properties of the gunas is infinite, eternal, unchanging and absolute pure consciousness and transcendent, so cannot actually produce Maya which is inert and possessed of the properties of the gunas. Thus we say Maya is actually a holographic projection that emanates from Brahman(hence we say Maya is its power) and spans across a continuum from intellect(sattvic) down to the gross eleents(tamasic) At the highest level of intellect where Brahman is reflected in the intellect Maya creates Ishvara and then Ishvara creates egos which are localized units of intellect, and Brahman reflected in those seen as Jivas. That is to say both Jiva and Ishvara are illusory products of Maya, but the reflected consciousness of Brahman lends them perceived sentience.

If Maya is Inert how can a all powerful, infinite, omniscient being who is free from all foreign elements come to be overpowered by a inert entity?

Why does Brahman use the power of illusion on itself, or does it not have any control over its own power?

Maya is not an substance, but a power of Brahman which projects out of Brahman like a holographic projection. Although Brahman is that holographic projection as well, the holographic projection is not Brahman i.e., Brahman is Maya, but Maya is not Brahman. Like the clay is pot, but the pot is not clay.

So Maya is an attribute of Brahman?

The projection of Maya does indeed come to the end when the projection is withdrawn into Brahman in the same way a spider projects a web and then withdraws the web back into itself. The power of projecting a web belongs to the spider, the web is the own substance of the spider, but at the same time the web is distinct from the spider. The web has no independent existence from the spider, but spider is independent from the web. Similarly, the power of projecting maya belongs to Brahman, Maya is of the substance of Brahman, but at the same time Maya is distinct from Brahman. Maya has no independent existence of Brahman, but Brahman is independent of Maya.

So Maya is not eternal?

Whatever has a beginning and a end is not eternal.

If Maya is eternal the obviously there is no escaping Maya, but in turn renders the world as eternal as well being a creation of Maya, Like a holographic projection is there as long as the device producing it will be there.

If Maya is not eternal then its not a power of Brahman, as Brahman is eternal and everything associated with it should have the same attributes. Like a Spider, the web does not LIVE independent of the Spider, but is dependent on the Spider and Lives as long as the spider lives.

and spiders dont get caught in their own web.

No, I did not tell you Maya was both true and both false. That is obviously logically false. Maya is neither totally non-existent or totally existent. As in the analogy of the spider and the web, the web is neither totally existent or totally non-existent. It depends on the spider for its existence and ultimately the spider withdraws it into itself.

Sat and Asat are existence and non existence, there is no middle word in this context.
either you exist or you dont.
Again the web is Always there, either inside or outside the spider, and will be there as long as the spider is alive.

This is explained as Maya's creation has a beginning, it also has an end. The Jiva having a beginning will also have an end.

When did maya create this?

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

I think I should have put this in the debate section? But let's see how far I get with my misunderstanding

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

To keep it in simple 4 year old terms, Maya is an aspect of the Supreme (or whatever you label it) and because the Supreme is eternal, any aspect of it is also eternal. And because Maya is an aspect of the Supreme, who is also known as the Real, nothing that is part of the Real can be said to be un-Real.

Therefore Maya is real and eternal.

BUT. It does not follow that the soul is eternally under the influence of Maya.

Geeze, I'd hate to be a 4yr old at ur place.lol
If maya is real and eternal, then I can't see any escape from it.

 

[Madhuri]

Geeze, I'd hate to be a 4yr old at ur place.lol
If maya is real and eternal, then I can't see any escape from it.

Why not?

 

[Surya Deva]

The illusionist always does trick to delude a different entity to himself.

Are you saying that the Brahman creating Maya and then getting entangled in it himself?

No, recall that I told you Brahman never gets entangled. Brahman always remains transcendent.

Jivatma is the personality of a Individual, atman is the eternal "soul". am i right.

Yes. Brahman and Atman are synonymous in the Sruti

If Maya is Inert how can a all powerful, infinite, omniscient being who is free from all foreign elements come to be overpowered by a inert entity?

Brahman always remains transcendent. How? The power of awareness means that one can never become misidentified with ones content of awareness. I know my awareness is not the computer I am typing on because it a content of my awareness .

Why does Brahman use the power of illusion on itself, or does it not have any control over its own power?

I think there has been a fundamental misunderstanding. I never said Brahman becomes overcome by Maya. Brahman is always independent of Maya(svatantra)

So Maya is an attribute of Brahman?

No, an intrinsic power of Brahman.

So Maya is not eternal?

Whatever has a beginning and a end is not eternal.

If Maya is eternal the obviously there is no escaping Maya, but in turn renders the world as eternal as well being a creation of Maya, Like a holographic projection is there as long as the device producing it will be there.

Maya is eternal, but exists in two states: Unmanifest and manifest. As the unmanifest Maya is purely a power within Brahman and hence eternal. As Manifest Maya is a hologram which projects out of Brahman and this hologram is constantly changing and transforming

If Maya is not eternal then its not a power of Brahman, as Brahman is eternal and everything associated with it should have the same attributes. Like a Spider, the web does not LIVE independent of the Spider, but is dependent on the Spider and Lives as long as the spider lives.

So Brahman is eternal, hence its power is also eternal. As Maya is Brahmans power, there is a distinction between Brahman and Maya, in much the same way there is distinction between the sun and the power of its radiation.

Sat and Asat are existence and non existence, there is no middle word in this context.
either you exist or you dont.
Again the web is Always there, either inside or outside the spider, and will be there as long as the spider is alive.

Like in the analogy of the sun and its radiation. The sun's power is its radiation, but the sun is not the radiation. The radiation has no independent existence of the sun, but the sun is independent of the radiation. In the analogy of the spider, the web has no independent existence of its own, but the spider is independent of the web.

The radiation emanates from the sun but it not identical to the sun
The web emanates from the spider, but it is not identical to the spider
Maya emanates from Brahman, but it is not identical to Brahman

When did maya create this?

Impossible to answer because you are asking me tell you that which is outside of my limits of reason to know. This is why in Advaita we say Maya is inexplicable, wonderful. The best answer is Maya being the creative force of Brahman perpetually creates. Hence the popular image of universes bubbling out of Brahman perpetually.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Why not?

Whell how do you escape eternity?

 

[Valjean]

Maya is our dream of the world. It's the abstract instrument display created in our minds from electrochemical sensory inputs, which enables us to navigate our world.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

=Surya Deva;3095136]No, recall that I told you Brahman never gets entangled. Brahman always remains transcendent.
Yes. Brahman and Atman are synonymous in the Sruti

Ok, Maya is power of Saguna Brahman, Jivatma is the personality of the Atman, Atman is Brahman itself, the jivatma (individuality) gets illusions by Maya which is also the power of Brahman. The Atma thinks its the Individual (Jivatma) alone, but is actually the Brahman who itself uses its power to cause a illusion of separateness from itself?

Brahman always remains transcendent. How? The power of awareness means that one can never become misidentified with ones content of awareness. I know my awareness is not the computer I am typing on because it a content of my awareness .

ok, So Brahman is aware of its power of Illusion (Maya), how then the Jivatma becomes misidentified with its true self (Atman and Brahman being synonymous)?

Answer is Maya am i right.

I think there has been a fundamental misunderstanding. I never said Brahman becomes overcome by Maya. Brahman is always independent of Maya(svatantra)

Ok.
But it still has some attachment to Maya, Maya being its own Power.

Its independent of Maya, but is the cause of it.

No, an intrinsic power of Brahman.

Brahmans power would mean its attribute.

Like saying one of the attributes of Brahman is Maya.

Maya is eternal, but exists in two states: Unmanifest and manifest. As the unmanifest Maya is purely a power within Brahman and hence eternal. As Manifest Maya is a hologram which projects out of Brahman and this hologram is constantly changing and transforming

Ok, if Maya is like a Hologram what is it projected on to?

Maya cant have its own attribute, it will mean its independent of Brahman, Maya being Eternal is either eternally manifest of eternally unmanifest.

So Brahman is eternal, hence its power is also eternal. As Maya is Brahmans power, there is a distinction between Brahman and Maya, in much the same way there is distinction between the sun and the power of its radiation.

OK, more proof that Maya is Eternal.

So there is no escape from Maya?

I understand that Maya is the power of Brahman, just like the web of the spider or rays of the Sun, but we are talking about a eternal infinite being that project a illusion, then gets illusions by his own power.

Impossible to answer because you are asking me tell you that which is outside of my limits of reason to know. This is why in Advaita we say Maya is inexplicable, wonderful. The best answer is Maya being the creative force of Brahman perpetually creates. Hence the popular image of universes bubbling out of Brahman perpetually.

So no proof that Maya created all this at all.
If it did then creation is eternal, not an illusion that can be dispersed through the knowledge of the reality, Maya being a eternal creative force of Brahman is reality, not illusion.

The radiation emanates from the sun but it not identical to the sun
The web emanates from the spider, but it is not identical to the spider
Maya emanates from Brahman, but it is not identical to Brahman

The radiation of the Sun are essentially parts of the sun being dispersed by nuclear reactions within the Sun, its used by the sun to rid the excess heat produced to keep it functioning for longer. (if the Sun was conscious, which its not, we can say radiation from the sun is of some use for the sun).

The web is part of the Body of the Spider used for its survival. (Spiders being conscious of its surrounding), needs the Web to survive.

What use is the power of Maya to Brahman?

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Maya is our dream of the world. It's the abstract instrument display created in our minds from electrochemical sensory inputs, which enables us to navigate our world.

Our dream!, i thought it was a "power", of Brahman?

I dont think this is the same as what Surya Deva is saying.

Ok, all dreams have a reality, because we dream about real things, if reality is actually Maya, then are we dreaming a dream?

As you can see, i just cant understand Maya, only because of these "illusionary" words used to describe something which is apparently real.

 

[Valjean]

No, "power" is misleading. Maya's usually translated as illusion and I think this is about as close as one can get.

Maya is perceptual artifact of our limited consciousness.

Just as this text or a YouTube video is really just an abstract, artificial display of a series of 1s and 0s, so is our perception of the world.

A pilot can land a plane in darkness using only the instruments on the dashboard (?). The instruments are not an accurate representation of what the pilot would see could he look out the window, but they serve to allow him to navigate.
Our senses are the same. The picture of the world assembled in our brain are an abstraction; a subjective 'reality'. The world we perceive is only subjectively real, it's not physically possible, ie: not the Reality described by quantum theory, M theory or relativity. This is Maya.

We ordinarily experience three levels of consciousness. In NREM sleep we perceive nothing. In REM sleep we dream. The dreams are subjective realities. When we wake to 3rd or waking state the illusory nature of REM/2nd state becomes obvious. But waking state is just another dream; just as much an illusion as REM sleep. It, too, is maya.
Only in the higher states do we perceive real Reality, the reality of physics. Only then are we beyond maya.

 

[chinu]

I am trying to understand the concept of Maya, need help.

No long post please, treat me as a 4 year old who knows nothing.

Will ask 1 at a time.

1) Is Maya Eternal

Maya means illusion between Truth and Man, Yes.. the impression of maya is also in eternal world too.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Thanks you all for your contribution, i somewhat understand what Maya is supposed to be, will do rest of reaserch on my own. thanks.

OM TATH SATH

 

[Onkara]

Namaste Satyamavejayanti
You cannot escape form it, but you can see beyond it:

This divine power (Maya) of Mine, consisting of
three states (Gunas) of mind, is very difficult to
overcome. Only those who surrender unto Me
easily cross over this Maya. Bhagavad Gita 7.14

I believe the word of the day is duratyayā . (understand, transcend, overcome). Here too in this quote is the answer on how to overcome it: surrender to the Lord.