Maya?

[nameless]

welcome back Onkara Ji

 

[Onkara]

Thank you Nameless Ji, I missed my friends too much

 

[Madhuri]

Whell how do you escape eternity?

Maya is eternal does not mean we are eternally bound by Maya. Maya is not an infinite thing. It is only one aspect of the Supreme and we're only under the spell for so long. According to religion.

 

[Surya Deva]

Ok, Maya is power of Saguna Brahman, Jivatma is the personality of the Atman, Atman is Brahman itself, the jivatma (individuality) gets illusions by Maya which is also the power of Brahman. The Atma thinks its the Individual (Jivatma) alone, but is actually the Brahman who itself uses its power to cause a illusion of separateness from itself?

No Brahman does not use the power of Maya to do anything. Brahman does not do anything. All is done by Maya.

In order to understand why Maya exists at all is a mystery, but it probably has something to do with the pecularity of existence itself. Have you every asked yourself the question many a philosophers have asked, "Why is there an existence at all?" Why isn't there just non-existence. However, if you look carefully there is both existence and non-existence. What you perceive to be existent is existent only momentarily. It is existent yet simultaneously tending towards non-existent. This is Maya. Neither totally existent or totally non existent. Yet to say something is non-existent itself presupposes existence - that is Brahman.

For some reason Maya creates incessantly universes, jivas and God. As Jivas are created, this is jivas are not eternal, they come to an end eventually. This is why bondage is not eternal.

ok, So Brahman is aware of its power of Illusion (Maya), how then the Jivatma becomes misidentified with its true self (Atman and Brahman being synonymous)?

Answer is Maya am i right.

Brahman is not an awareness of something, Brahman is just awareness. The Jains have the best conception Brahman is the totality of all knowledge, experience and existence. It is a state of beingness that the jivamukta attains to

Ok.
But it still has some attachment to Maya, Maya being its own Power.

Brahman is not attached to it, Maya is attached to Brahman. Brahman is the real cause and Maya is the illusory effect. Just as the oasis is not attached to the mirage of the oasis.

Its independent of Maya, but is the cause of it.

Yes, it is the real cause and Maya is the illusory effect. So we are not say Brahman is the cause in the sense the seed is the cause of the tree. What we are saying is the effect is a projection or reflection from Brahman. Like you stand in front of the mirror, you are independent of the reflection in the mirror, but you are independent of the mirror. The reflection is the illusory effect and you are the real cause.

Brahmans power would mean its attribute.

Like saying one of the attributes of Brahman is Maya.

No Brahman has no attributes. An attribute is something that you add onto something. Maya is intinsically part of Brahman. Again like the example of the person and the reflection in the mirror.

Ok, if Maya is like a Hologram what is it projected on to?

It is projected out of Brahman. Like you have a light source and the light source projects its radiation out in all directions. If you follow the radiation you get back to the light source. Similarly, Maya is a projection out of Brahman, the universe, jivas and God it produces are like imperfect representation of Brahman. The highest is God(ishvara) because its the sattva the brilliant and luminous part of Maya. However, the aim of the Advaitin is to go beyond Maya altogether, which means we must go beyond Ishvara to the source of Brahman.

Maya cant have its own attribute, it will mean its independent of Brahman, Maya being Eternal is either eternally manifest of eternally unmanifest.

Maya is actually unmanifest, the manifest part is not real. In M-theory for instance the entire universe is actually just vibrating strings, and the phases of the vibrations of the string appear to project our multidimensional universe. In actual fact all real activity is taking place in the unmanifest strings. Similarly, Maya is actually unmanifest and entire manifest universe is just the vibrating gunas, the different phases of the gunas project our multidimensional universe.

OK, more proof that Maya is Eternal.

Yes, Maya is eternal and I never said Maya was not eternal.

So there is no escape from Maya?

Yes, there is escape from Maya, because the jiva is not eternal. The manifest aspect of Maya is not eternal.

I understand that Maya is the power of Brahman, just like the web of the spider or rays of the Sun, but we are talking about a eternal infinite being that project a illusion, then gets illusions by his own power.

No, I feel like you've not actually been reading what I have been saying to you. Brahman is transcendent, Brahman never gets bound in Maya. What gets bound in Maya is jiva.

The projective power of Brahman called Maya is eternal. The projections that the projective power produces are not eternal. The universe is not eternal, jiva is not eternal, Ishvara is not eternal.

So no proof that Maya created all this at all.
If it did then creation is eternal, not an illusion that can be dispersed through the knowledge of the reality, Maya being a eternal creative force of Brahman is reality, not illusion.

Maya's projections are not eternal, because they are not ultimately real.

The radiation of the Sun are essentially parts of the sun being dispersed by nuclear reactions within the Sun, its used by the sun to rid the excess heat produced to keep it functioning for longer. (if the Sun was conscious, which its not, we can say radiation from the sun is of some use for the sun).

The web is part of the Body of the Spider used for its survival. (Spiders being conscious of its surrounding), needs the Web to survive.

Do not take the analogy too literally. I am not literally saying Brahman is the sun or a spider lol I am using these analogies to illustrate certain arguments.
Brahman and Maya are both eternally existent. Why Maya exists at all is unknown, for the same reason nobody can answer the question "Why is there is an existence at all?" but like I said it has probably something to do with the logic of existence and non-existence itself. Recall the Vedic Nasadiya suktam "In the beginning there was neither existence or non-existence"

The best way to find out is to become a jivamukta. Realize Brahman and you will realize the mysteries of its power Maya too.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Surya Deva;3108006]No Brahman does not use the power of Maya to do anything. Brahman does not do anything. All is done by Maya.

In order to understand why Maya exists at all is a mystery, but it probably has something to do with the pecularity of existence itself. Have you every asked yourself the question many a philosophers have asked, .......

Ok then Maya can never be understood.
One more thing, how can Maya do anything?
Its a Power of Brahman, all that Maya does is just intent of what Brahman does.
What i understand from what you are telling me is that the Power of Brahman (MAYA) is creating things independently, but then Maya is also dependent on Brahman, so anything created by Maya has to be what Brahman creates.

Brahman is not an awareness of something, Brahman is just awareness. The Jains have the best conception Brahman is the totality of all knowledge, experience and existence. It is a state of beingness that the jivamukta attains to

Ok,
What is the relationship of Maya with Jiva?

Yes, it is the real cause and Maya is the illusory effect. So we are not say Brahman is the cause in the sense the seed is the cause of the tree. What we are saying is the effect is a projection or reflection from Brahman. Like you stand in front of the mirror, you are independent of the reflection in the mirror, but you are independent of the mirror. The reflection is the illusory effect and you are the real cause.

Ok, so the real Brahman creates a illusionary effect?

No Brahman has no attributes. An attribute is something that you add onto something. Maya is intinsically part of Brahman. Again like the example of the person and the reflection in the mirror.

Ok, So you are saying that the attribute less Brahman has powers?

However, the aim of the Advaitin is to go beyond Maya altogether, which means we must go beyond Ishvara to the source of Brahman.

Hmm, so Brahman has a source?

Maya is actually unmanifest, the manifest part is not real. In M-theory for instance the entire universe is actually just vibrating strings, and the phases of the vibrations of the string appear to project our multidimensional universe. In actual fact all real activity is taking place in the unmanifest strings. Similarly, Maya is actually unmanifest and entire manifest universe is just the vibrating gunas, the different phases of the gunas project our multidimensional universe.

But the string theory is not Illusion, Maya is Illusion, and all real world theories dont apply to Maya, as they in turn become error or just illusion.
Do you understand what i mean.

You cant use REAL world theories and apply them to something which is not REAL, or illusionary.

If you say Maya is just our perception of the gross world, which in turn is actually constructed of minute unseen (To the human eye) elements, which then forms this Gross world wee see today, then we can speak about real world theories such as Strings ect.

Because Maya becomes our perception of the World, and there-fore we can see past our finite perception (MAYA) of the world and see the reality (Brahman).

But you are saying Maya is illusion, which then cant be explained with real world science, because this real world science is just a Illusion.

Yes, Maya is eternal and I never said Maya was not eternal.

I did not say you did, all im saying is that Maya is Eternal, meaning never ending, but you keep telling me its going to end, and i keep telling you if its eternal then it cant end.

Yes, there is escape from Maya, because the jiva is not eternal. The manifest aspect of Maya is not eternal.

yes the JIVA (our personalities) are not eternal, but the Atman is eternal, and Maya is Eternal so even if our personalities will die our Atman will still be there and so will Maya, and Atman will be in Maya, and again will assume a Jiva (Personalities) because both Atman and Maya being eternal, that means we will be Jivatman for eternity.

No, I feel like you've not actually been reading what I have been saying to you. Brahman is transcendent, Brahman never gets bound in Maya. What gets bound in Maya is jiva.

Ok, Ok, Brahman never gets bound in Maya, lets keep it at that.

But i dont think you understand, what my queries are, anyway does not matter.

The projective power of Brahman called Maya is eternal. The projections that the projective power produces are not eternal. The universe is not eternal, jiva is not eternal, Ishvara is not eternal.

Everything associated with Brahman must have its attributes, If Maya is Brahmans Power and eternal because of Brahman, then all Maya produces should also me eternal like brahman, because Maya is not Independent of Brahman.

Maya's projections are not eternal, because they are not ultimately real.

So, what you are telling me is also not real. You do understand that we are in Maya right now dont you.

Recall the Vedic Nasadiya suktam "In the beginning there was neither existence or non-existence"

Well this Suktam does not say that all is Maya, nor does it say that this is just a projection of Brahman, nor does it mention Jivatman, so not a good example to support MAYA theory.

Anyway, does not all knowledge become the product of Maya, hence just a illusion.

The best way to find out is to become a jivamukta. Realize Brahman and you will realize the mysteries of its power Maya too.[/QUOTE]

Guess i have to Die to figure this one out. Thanks for the Help

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Maya is eternal does not mean we are eternally bound by Maya. Maya is not an infinite thing. It is only one aspect of the Supreme and we're only under the spell for so long. According to religion.

Maya is a Infinite power of Brahman, as im told. So no escaping the Power of Brahman.

And who escapes anyway? Jiva or Atman?

 

[VictoriousPumpkin]

No, "power" is misleading. Maya's usually translated as illusion and I think this is about as close as one can get.

Maya is perceptual artifact of our limited consciousness.

That is what I understood it to be. The illusion is that you can understand all there is to know with your limited/finite ability to do so. That finite perception of the infinite creates the unreal reality. I do not think maya is anything purposely created to deceive us, just simply a natural consequence of being a in a finite vessel and perceiving what you believe to be true about the world/universe/beyond through that lens.

I find the projection analogies a bit more confusing than anything else because it makes it seem like there is an overlord puppetmaster somewhere who creates these illusions of reality on us for its own devices. In truth, it seems it is our own ignorance of the nature of the ultimate reality and limits of our knowledge in our current state that create maya. In the end, we are the ultimate reality and maya is self-imposed, self-created. Makes sense when you read that you are liberated when you realize you were never enslaved.

I could be completely off base, but that is what I have got from what I have read about it.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Seyorni;3105877]No, "power" is misleading. Maya's usually translated as illusion and I think this is about as close as one can get.

I tink What Surya is saying is that Maya is the Power of illusion of Brahman (correct me if im wrong Surya).

Just as this text or a YouTube video is really just an abstract, artificial display of a series of 1s and 0s, so is our perception of the world.

So its our perception of this world which is what you think Maya is, Not a actual Power of Brahman.

A pilot can land a plane in darkness using only the instruments on the dashboard (?). The instruments are not an accurate representation of what the pilot would see could he look out the window, but they serve to allow him to navigate.
Our senses are the same. The picture of the world assembled in our brain are an abstraction; a subjective 'reality'. The world we perceive is only subjectively real, it's not physically possible, ie: not the Reality described by quantum theory, M theory or relativity. This is Maya.

Ahh, Ok, Who is this "WE", that has been illusions by the senses?

Only in the higher states do we perceive real Reality, the reality of physics. Only then are we beyond maya.

How can we be sure that the reality of Physics is real?