Maybe Islam isn't so violent in terms of theology, but it gives motives for it

[Rogn]

I was reading Surah 42. And when i think more about it. Yes, hell, disbelievers is not spoken like they are saints in terms of getting people to believe. Although thats nothing new though. But in terms of you have your religion and i have mine but either way we will find our path to Allah or something.... that kinda sounds nice.

But i will admit that Islam does have the most fundamental problems, in terms of most nutjobs than any other religions.

But some will interpret Surah 9 (The next last revealed surah) meaning certain invaders. Which might not make some earlier passages abrogated. Although if thats true then i wonder why muslims seem very silent on terrorists and why they dont clear this out if that is the interpretation. Or is there some disagrement on it. Maybe its because muhammad ment it to be ever lasting, and that was what his followers continued in terms of caliphs, ottomans etc.

I dunno. What do you guys think?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What do I think? I am far more scared of nationalism than any religion. National pride has caused a lot of blind ignorance, tons of ethnocentrism and xenophobia, and lots of people tend to die.
Christians get upset when you don't believe. Patriots often turn vile and bitter when you won't say the pledge.
And Christianity brings up another point. Why do so many people point the finger at Islam when the history of Christianity is filled with blood and violence?
And another point. Why does hardly anyone ever bring up the good that religion has inspired? Like it or not, some people find sobriety, some people are moved to charity, some people find community and acceptance, and some people do turn their lives around for the good.

 

[Rogn]

Christianity is less violent than islam though. Unless you count nationalism and secular ideas to christian world.

But generally religiously it is less. Constant Jihad was a thing in the pre islamic world to say the least. Its just that now thx to globalization that we sorta discover it more when before it was war on both sides.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Christianity is less violent than islam though. Unless you count nationalism and secular ideas to christian world.

But generally religiously it is less. Constant Jihad was a thing in the pre islamic world to say the least. Its just that now thx to globalization that we sorta discover it more when before it was war on both sides.

Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, spreading by the sword throughout Europe, centuries of warfare against each other, provisional-IRA, KKK, Anders Breivik, trying to compare which one is less or more violent is like trying to say the kettle is more black than the pot.

 

[Rogn]

Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, spreading by the sword throughout Europe, centuries of warfare against each other, provisional-IRA, KKK, Anders Breivik, trying to compare which one is less or more violent is like trying to say the kettle is more black than the pot.

History is little relevant what is happening now to be honest. The most fundamentalists today are muslims, its idiotic to compare what happend before to what happend now. Well you see... Jews where bad because they were Zealous against romans? kinda argument.

If you take most problems with religion it is always Islam. And Anders Behring Breivik described himself as little religious, but he supported christian cultural identity, but with no political power.
The worst thing that have probably happend in terms of christianity in current time is... what? Abortion clinic bombers which where more of a problem in the 90s, and god hates **** at the funerals. And if we add some other stuff like pedophilia in catholic church (Which btw is ok in Islam).

That's nothing compared to this
List of designated terrorist organizations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Most terrorist groups are islamic, they kill for allah they die for allah. And thats what motives lies in their scriptures is at. But I honestly didn't even wanna discuss the blame game. But since you had to start one i will atleast give you the current correct fact to the most fundamental worse problem so that you don't spew history that has no relevance to current events.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

History is little relevant what is happening now to be honest.

When you're trying to decide, history is indeed very relevant. Is history isn't relevant, let's try and give fascism a chance. Maybe we should try Leninist ideas? After all, the history isn't relevant.

 

[Rogn]

When you're trying to decide, history is indeed very relevant. Is history isn't relevant, let's try and give fascism a chance. Maybe we should try Leninist ideas? After all, the history isn't relevant.

Its not. You got it backwards. You can learn from history, but its not the problem of current events. Therefor by scapegoating christianity as i know many leftist, liberal, politically correct and Swedish Social Workers does, makes it more problematic to the deluded minds of this generation that needs to actually be realistic to what is now. And islam currently have the most fundamental problems. That's a fact. But if you want to ignore it and just white knighting then you can do that with Cam girls on the net or something.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Its not. You got it backwards. You can learn from history, but its not the problem of current events. Therefor by scapegoating christianity as i know many leftist, liberal, politically correct and Swedish Social Workers does, makes it more problematic to the deluded minds of this generation that needs to actually be realistic to what is now. And islam currently have the most fundamental problems. That's a fact. But if you want to ignore it and just white knighting then you can do that with Cam girls on the net or something.

How is it not at all relevant that the American government helped to prop up Bin Laden, which set of a domino effect that created ISIS? How is it not relevant that Christians have a very violent history? You have actually not answered this question.
And what am I ignoring? And what is this "white knighting?"

 

[Rogn]

Because your logic speaks the same as Ben Affleck basically. Always blame everything else... except the islamic religion. Its always the other one's fault. It has nothing to do with how the theology is interpreted as. I mean that would be crazy right. Well the Mongols where also violent but you don't see me *****ing about it.

 

[Glaurung]

How is it not at all relevant that the American government helped to prop up Bin Laden, which set of a domino effect that created ISIS? How is it not relevant that Christians have a very violent history?

Because the reality is if someone is going to blow themselves up in the metro, attack cartoonists, hold up cafes and so on, he's going to be a muslim nine out of ten times. How many more incidents do you need before you admit there's a problem that is specifically muslim.

But.. But.. the inquisition and witch hunts! It's a red herring.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Because the reality is if someone is going to blow themselves up in the metro, attack cartoonists, hold up cafes and so on, he's going to be a muslim nine out of ten times. How many more incidents do you need before you admit there's a problem that is specifically muslim.

But.. But.. the inquisition and witch hunts! It's a red herring.

History is not a red herring.
And the vast majority of Muslims being peaceful does not, at all, suggest their is an inherent problem with Islam.
Their is a problem with extremism, but we find that everywhere. Even animal right and environmentalist extremist have killed people. That Bible has defended slavery for a very long time, but I rarely hear anyone citing their is an inherent problem with Christianity, even though the Bible clearly condones slavery, cruelty, misogyny, and death sentences for the most petty and trivial of things.
But, according to you, seeing things through is a "red herring." And let's not forget, there are still places in the world were "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" is taken literally and seriously.

 

[Rogn]

History is not a red herring.
And the vast majority of Muslims being peaceful does not, at all, suggest their is an inherent problem with Islam.
Their is a problem with extremism, but we find that everywhere. Even animal right and environmentalist extremist have killed people. That Bible has defended slavery for a very long time, but I rarely hear anyone citing their is an inherent problem with Christianity, even though the Bible clearly condones slavery, cruelty, misogyny, and death sentences for the most petty and trivial of things.
But, according to you, seeing things through is a "red herring." And let's not forget, there are still places in the world were "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" is taken literally and seriously.

North African slave trades was in the islamic world. But i rarely hear about that... oh my . Slavery was not uncommon in the past, its just that in modern times that we have learned to go past that. And slavery is also allowed in islam if you have read the quran, but oh no thats not ok to mention. Although the bible have ****ty stuff much of the bad stuff can be cancelled out if one interpret Jesus. For example if you have any clue of interpretation, the law of moses is an old contract that christians dont practice in terms of the new covenant. this doesnt mean it is invalid (Well in a way it is) but it means that the old contract goes over to a new contract. Therefor you dont need to do circumcision and all that nonsense.

MANY HAVE SAID MENTIONED THE THING YOU DID AND CRITICIZED CHRISTIANITY. I am stunned by the nonsense in your claim..

Edit: You are from USA. Just because USA have some weird strong Christian culture doesn't make Islam ok to tolerate. Please do me a favor and please study the religion before saying anything, like read a quran, and a hadith and a sira before commenting next time.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

North African slave trades was in the islamic world. But i rarely hear about that... oh my . Slavery was not uncommon in the past, its just that in modern times that we have learned to go past that. And slavery is also allowed in islam if you have read the quran, but oh no thats not ok to mention. Although the bible have ****ty stuff much of the bad stuff can be cancelled out if one interpret Jesus. For example if you have any clue of interpretation, the law of moses is an old contract that christians dont practice in terms of the new covenant. this doesnt mean it is invalid (Well in a way it is) but it means that the old contract goes over to a new contract. Therefor you dont need to do circumcision and all that nonsense.

MANY HAVE SAID MENTIONED THE THING YOU DID AND CRITICIZED CHRISTIANITY. I am stunned by the nonsense in your claim..

Edit: You are from USA. Just because USA have some weird strong Christian culture doesn't make Islam ok to tolerate. Please do me a favor and please study the religion before saying anything, like read a quran, and a hadith and a sira before commenting next time.

Actually, I have read the Quran. And, you are sorely mistaken if you think most Christians think Jesus canceled the laws and they don't follow them. Just look at how many of them quote Leviticus to denounce homosexuality. Actually, Matthew 5:17 says that Jesus said to not think he came to destroy the law or the prophets. And many Christians do not focus on Jesus that much, but they turn their attention to Paul, he is very much not like Christ. And even with Jesus, it doesn't pardon the genocide and other atrocities committed by God.
And, instead of denouncing Islam and Muslims as a whole, I'd rather go by my own personal experience I've had with them. Be they locals from around here or from the Middle East, I've never had any problems with them.

 

[jeager106]

Everyone's history everywhere has one thing in common with everyone's history everywhere.
It's OVER. In the past.
Islamic terrorism is in the NOW.
How hard is that to understand?
People that tolerate Islamic terrorism never fail to point out Christian crimes without ever
mentioning that those crimes occurred CENTURIES ago.
Neanderthals evolved over time.
Christianity evolved over time as did most everything in society.

 

[LuisDantas]

You know, I have been reading an excellent book about the First World War. It does give one quite a few insights about how difficult it may be to deal with mistrust and expansionism, and how easily people may enter into armed conflict even while they sincerely wish they would not.

More relevant to this thread is that it also reminds me of how important it is to think outside the box, to take responsibility for the decisions one takes and not to wash off our hands due to tradition or even supposed duty.

World War I was largely a clash of cultural expectations, a conflict where people were so pressured by each other's expectations and so little used to seeking actual understanding instead of bravado that they pretty much ended up entering into a sort-of-unwilling pact of mutual decimation.

Because ultimately they just did not know how to deal with their conflicts in any better way.

And that was just barely a century ago, and mostly because their parameters of diplomacy and military action were badly outdated for their actual social development, population numbers and technology levels.

Honestly, I don't understand how anyone would expect - or even make the attempt - of seeing actual adequacy in the political and social directives of scripture that is literally unchanging for well over a millennium. That is, frankly, insane.

Whether our current understanding is faithful or not to the original intent of the Quran is not even a relevant question IMO.

For the original intent is by definition obsolete in any case - it came far before the questioning of slavery, of male dominance, of political representation that we now take for granted. Perhaps even more significantly, it came before the wide dissemination of gunpowder weapons, let alone modern warfare technology.

It also came before the far more constructive possibilities of communication, diplomacy, cultural interchange and travel that we have today. We no longer have to think of "foreigners" as if they had an actual, objective difference in nature from ourselves. It is just a bad habit that we have not quite convinced ourselves to get rid of yet.

 

[Glaurung]

History is not a red herring.

It is when we are dealing with the reality of the here and now. The reality is that the majority of religiously motivated attacks are coming from Muslims.

And the vast majority of Muslims being peaceful does not, at all, suggest their is an inherent problem with Islam.

That's true. But again, if I do something perceived by Muslims to be blasphemous, a non-trivial amount will want to see me punished. The people willing to go out and actually commit the violence may be a drop in the bucket, but a significant portion of that bucket would agree I deserve what's coming to me.

. That Bible has defended slavery for a very long time, but I rarely hear anyone citing their is an inherent problem with Christianity, even though the Bible clearly condones slavery, cruelty, misogyny, and death sentences for the most petty and trivial of things.

Because Christians and Jews are not killing people for these offences. Nor are we keeping slaves with legal sanction. And as much as you may dislike the Christian condemnation of homosexuality, very few of us are calling for their deaths. (Unlike in the Muslim world). You may have the rare incident of a deranged Christian doing something horrible here and there, but it's apples and oranges.

But, according to you, seeing things through is a "red herring." And let's not forget, there are still places in the world were "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" is taken literally and seriously

Indeed, and that includes the Islamic world.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

People that tolerate Islamic terrorism never fail to point out Christian crimes without ever
mentioning that those crimes occurred CENTURIES ago.

Who has said they tolerate terrorism?
And when did Christian extremism vanish? It still goes on to this day, and they actually caused a scene in England not centuries ago, but just a couple of decades ago.

 

[jeager106]

Who has said they tolerate terrorism?
And when did Christian extremism vanish? It still goes on to this day, and they actually caused a scene in England not centuries ago, but just a couple of decades ago.

How do you equate causing a scene with burning people alive, invading entire countries,
capturing oil fields for illegal profit, beheading people, committing mass murder of Shia
Muslims just because they are Shia, enslaving women for sex, murdering boys for watching
sports on t-v, enticing vulnerable young men to commit murder, shooting to death cartoonists,
encouraging vulnerable followers to commit mass murder by suicide, and on and on........?
But maybe you have a valid point and Islam really is the Religion of peace.

 

[DawudTalut]

I was reading Surah 42. And when i think more about it. Yes, hell, disbelievers is not spoken like they are saints in terms of getting people to believe. Although thats nothing new though. But in terms of you have your religion and i have mine but either way we will find our path to Allah or something.... that kinda sounds nice.

But i will admit that Islam does have the most fundamental problems, in terms of most nutjobs than any other religions.

But some will interpret Surah 9 (The next last revealed surah) meaning certain invaders. Which might not make some earlier passages abrogated. Although if thats true then i wonder why muslims seem very silent on terrorists and why they dont clear this out if that is the interpretation. Or is there some disagrement on it. Maybe its because muhammad ment it to be ever lasting, and that was what his followers continued in terms of caliphs, ottomans etc.

I dunno. What do you guys think?

Peace be on you. These things have been so many time explained in these pages, please check The Holy Quran
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/quran/tafseer/guide.htm?region=E1

 

[Rogn]

Actually, I have read the Quran. And, you are sorely mistaken if you think most Christians think Jesus canceled the laws and they don't follow them. Just look at how many of them quote Leviticus to denounce homosexuality. Actually, Matthew 5:17 says that Jesus said to not think he came to destroy the law or the prophets. And many Christians do not focus on Jesus that much, but they turn their attention to Paul, he is very much not like Christ. And even with Jesus, it doesn't pardon the genocide and other atrocities committed by God.
And, instead of denouncing Islam and Muslims as a whole, I'd rather go by my own personal experience I've had with them. Be they locals from around here or from the Middle East, I've never had any problems with them.

I'd rather prefer Hitchens over Lisa Simpson, horrible show
Paul is sent by Jesus, and he was no fool. I mean give me one bible verse where he gets it wrong. Explain to me how that doesn't define christ.
Lets see, homosexuality. One man and women should find each other and become one as it was in creation, that was something Jesus said. Although he never condemned homosexuality per se, Jesus did however condemn Lust as being a wicked sin. So yeah the old law is done with, but homosexuality is considered bad because its sexual immorale in the bible, Paul follow more Jesus example, instead of saying. Oh kill gays, he consider it as sexual immorale, you will be judged in the afterlife for it.

While in islam you are responsible for your own faith. You break the law its death.

Christianity has gone through a reformation. And i couldnt care less what your experience with middle east is, you are full of apologetic crap and the fact that you excuse what happens today with self hate guilt is something i dont give a **** about. I wasnt borned then, so you can take your crying face and join an islamic terrorist group you apathetic twat.