Maybe NATO should back down?

[Brickjectivity]

Spoiler: Scholar says Global South mistrusts US intentions

This video says there are many people in the southern hemisphere that view US as a provocateur in this current Russian-Ukraine war. The scholar in the included video argues that NATO has threatened Russia by potentially placing nukes there, and he also says that US CIA has promoted right wing candidates in Ukraine thus interfering with its politics. These are seen as provocations which have triggered some anxiety in Russia. He compares NATO's actions to those of the USSR when it attempted to place nukes in Cuba in the 60's. He says that there was a diplomatic way to handle this situation but that "The West was not interested in a diplomatic solution" and also worries that the USA with our enormous military will also stoke tensions in the Far East.

He condemns the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but he does think the US and NATO helped to cause the situation.

I think he makes an argument though perhaps there are counter perspectives to consider.

 

[Koldo]

Spoiler: Scholar says Global South mistrusts US intentions

This video says there are many people in the southern hemisphere that view US as a provocateur in this current Russian-Ukraine war. The scholar in the included video argues that NATO has threatened Russia by potentially placing nukes there, and he also says that US CIA has promoted right wing candidates in Ukraine thus interfering with its politics. These are seen as provocations which have triggered some anxiety in Russia. He compares NATO's actions to those of the USSR when it attempted to place nukes in Cuba in the 60's. He says that there was a diplomatic way to handle this situation but that "The West was not interested in a diplomatic solution" and also worries that the USA with our enormous military will also stoke tensions in the Far East.

He condemns the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but he does think the US and NATO helped to cause the situation.

I think he makes an argument though perhaps there are counter perspectives to consider.

I stopped right at the start when he said that Brazil doesn't condemn Russia's invasion, because...well.... it does. I am a brazilian and I can grant you that our president is a scared cat willing to lick anyone's boots, except for China's for some completely arbitraty reason. It has absolutely nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong. But he is alone on this. Everyone else condemns the invasion, including the Vice President.

Is Brazil willing to impose sanctions on Russia though? No. Why? Because our economy is not doing well and imposing sanctions on Russia means we are going to take another hit. As it is already, our money is worth half of what it was worth about 10 years ago.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Setting aside the desire the U.S. has for influence and hegemony in different regions, Putin's demands for Ukraine to be neutral, demilitarized, and basically subservient to the Kremlin are so unrealistic and self-serving as to arguably amount to seeking an excuse for war. How many countries would accept such demands from a neighbor who has already shown hostile intentions by annexing Crimea? Can you imagine how much worse Ukraine's situation would be if it had demilitarized prior to this war?

Also, 2022 is different from the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis: there are now ICBMs with enough range to reach their target through entire continents. The idea that a hostile NATO would need to place nuclear warheads in Ukraine to threaten Russia doesn't hold water considering the available technology and the fact that NATO already has multiple warheads within attack range of Russia.

Perhaps the U.S. could have handled the situation more wisely; Noam Chomsky thinks so too, for example. But with the facts at hand, I think it's safe to say that Putin would have remained hostile and bullied Ukraine either way.

 

[Estro Felino]

We should have welcomed Russia too into the NATO.

If Turkey could join...so can Russia.

 

[Koldo]

We should have welcomed Russia too into the NATO.

If Turkey could join...so can Russia.

I appreciate your sense of humor.

 

[Augustus]

We should have welcomed Russia too into the NATO.

If Turkey could join...so can Russia.

The main problem with this argument is that one country wanted to join, the other didn't.

"Blame NATO for not forcing Russia to join against her will!"

 

[Harel13]

Spoiler: Scholar says Global South mistrusts US intentions

This video says there are many people in the southern hemisphere that view US as a provocateur in this current Russian-Ukraine war. The scholar in the included video argues that NATO has threatened Russia by potentially placing nukes there, and he also says that US CIA has promoted right wing candidates in Ukraine thus interfering with its politics. These are seen as provocations which have triggered some anxiety in Russia. He compares NATO's actions to those of the USSR when it attempted to place nukes in Cuba in the 60's. He says that there was a diplomatic way to handle this situation but that "The West was not interested in a diplomatic solution" and also worries that the USA with our enormous military will also stoke tensions in the Far East.

He condemns the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but he does think the US and NATO helped to cause the situation.

I think he makes an argument though perhaps there are counter perspectives to consider.

This is basically one of the things Putin claimed shortly before the invasion. I recommend reading his words even if you don't agree. I think he has a lot of interesting things to say:
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/67843

 

[Koldo]

Setting aside the desire the U.S. has for influence and hegemony in different regions, Putin's demands for Ukraine to be neutral, demilitarized, and basically subservient to the Kremlin are so unrealistic and self-serving as to arguably amount to seeking an excuse for war. How many countries would accept such demands from a neighbor who has already shown hostile intentions by annexing Crimea? Can you imagine how much worse Ukraine's situation would be if it had demilitarized prior to this war?

Exactly! I would agreed with the whole talk about Ukraine remaining neutral if Russia hadn't recently grabbed Crimea.

Is anyone so naive as to think that Russia wouldn't have invaded one way or another? Does anyone think those separatist regions wouldn't have been grabbed too? The only thing that changed was the schedule.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I stopped right at the start when he said that Brazil doesn't condemn Russia's invasion, because...well.... it does. I am a brazilian and I can grant you that our president is a scared cat willing to lick anyone's boots, except for China's for some completely arbitraty reason. It has absolutely nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong. But he is alone on this. Everyone else condemns the invasion, including the Vice President.

Is Brazil willing to impose sanctions on Russia though? No. Why? Because our economy is not doing well and imposing sanctions on Russia means we are going to take another hit. As it is already, our money is worth half of what it was worth about 10 years ago.

I'm sorry to hear that Brazil is having difficult economic times. You folks deserve a break.

Brazil is a place with lots of resources and skilled people. It, along with the US, Indonesia, India and the Philippines have had more difficulty with Covid-19 than other democracies. According to this paper its because we have failed to address "Historic internal divides" within our nations.

"Instead, the vast social and economic inequalities in these five ethnically and racially diverse countries have made the pandemic harder to control. These states have failed to handle the novel coronavirus in part because they have never addressed their historical internal divides, which COVID-19 has brutally revealed." --https://www.cfr.org/report/covid-19-and-its-effect-inequality-and-democracy​

 

[Brickjectivity]

This is basically one of the things Putin claimed shortly before the invasion. I recommend reading his words even if you don't agree. I think he has a lot of interesting things to say:
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/67843

That seems to be unavailable in my area. If you download the pdf you can attach it to a post by directly dragging the file from a folder on your drive into a newly opened post, and then we'll be able to get it from your post.

 

[Estro Felino]

The main problem with this argument is that one country wanted to join, the other didn't.

"Blame NATO for not forcing Russia to join against her will!"

I do blame the NATO because Putin had asked to join, but the NATO was pretty reluctant saying that Russia would become a vassal member.
Obviously totally subjected to the decisions taken in advance by the United States.
The Russia said: no, thank you. I want to be a equal partner.
So I blame the NATO.

 

[Estro Felino]

I appreciate your sense of humor.

I am very serious.
It deals with a war. So I am very, very serious.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I see NATO as a preventive measure and not a cause when dealing with authoritarian countries like Russia and China.

 

[Estro Felino]

I see NATO as a preventive measure and not a cause when dealing with authoritarian countries like Russia and China.

And I underline that Russia has stopped being Communist in 1989.
So let us distinguish.

 

[Harel13]

That seems to be unavailable in my area. If you download the pdf you can attach it to a post by directly dragging the file from a folder on your drive into a newly opened post, and then we'll be able to get it from your post.

 

[Twilight Hue]

And I underline that Russia has stopped being Communist in 1989.
So let us distinguish.

Which is why Putin's motivations are questionable. I'm wondering if he's actually a closet Communist.

Too bad Russia didn't have a leader now like Gorbachev was back then. There wouldn't have been a Ukraine invasion today I would think, but of course that's just entertaining a what if scenario.

 

[ChristineM]

And I underline that Russia has stopped being Communist in 1989.
So let us distinguish.

Its not stopped being aggressive

 

[Augustus]

I do blame the NATO because Putin had asked to join, but the NATO was pretty reluctant saying that Russia would become a vassal member.
Obviously totally subjected to the decisions taken in advance by the United States.
The Russia said: no, thank you. I want to be a equal partner.
So I blame the NATO.

The problem with this argument is that you just completely made this all up.

None of that actually happened in the real world.

And therein lies the rub...

 

[Estro Felino]

The problem with this argument is that you just completely made this all up.

None of that actually happened in the real world.

And therein lies the rub...

Not quite

Ex-Nato head says Putin wanted to join alliance early on in his rule

 

[Estro Felino]

Which is why Putin's motivations are questionable. I'm wondering if he's actually a closet Communist.

Too bad Russia didn't have a leader now like Gorbachev was back then. There wouldn't have been a Ukraine invasion today I would think, but of course that's just entertaining a what if scenario.

If Yeltsin had asked to join the NATO ...would have the NATO said yes?