Meister Eckhart, St Teresa of Avila, St John of the Cross,,

[DanielR]

Can these teachings of those named people be reconsiled somehow, or are they opposing each other?

I was reading a lot about Meister Eckhart recently and I like his ideas but do other Catholic mystics teach completely different things?

I mean, Meister Eckhart's sermons were quite unique when we look at Catholicism. Could I start reading about Teresa of Avila now or would her ideas clash with Eckhart same with John of the Cross?

thx

 

[lovemuffin]

In terms of foundational Christian understanding, they are certainly not opposed to each other. As far as their writings about the spiritual path, I think you have to allow for the individuality of their approaches, the symbols and metaphors they use, their individual focus, and etc, but if you do I think you would find a lot of parallels and resonances between all three of them. Meister Eckhart is perhaps somewhat unique in the boldness of some of his formulations, but he's not saying something fundamentally different from the others, I don't think.

One very clear example of something they have in common, I think, is in the ineffability and apophatism of mystical experience, expressed as going beyond knowledge or beyond the normal faculties of mind, although this idea of course is not original to any of them, and predates all of them as a theme in Christian mysticism.

"There is more in this unknowing knowledge than in any ordinary understanding, for this unknowing lures you away from all understood things and from yourself. This is what Christ meant when he said: ‘Whoever does not deny himself and leave father and mother and is not estranged from all these, is not worthy of me.’" - Meister Eckhart

"In the prayer of union the soul is asleep, fast asleep, as regards the world and itself: in fact, during the short time this state lasts it is deprived of all feeling whatever, being unable to think on any subject, even if it wished. No effort is needed here to suspend the thoughts: if the soul can love it knows not how, nor whom it loves, nor what it desires. In fact, it has died entirely to this world, to live more truly than ever in God." - Teresa of Avila

"I entered - where - I did not know,
Yet when I found that I was there,
Though where I was I did not know,
Profound and subtle things I learned;
Nor can I say what I discerned,
For I remained uncomprehending,
All knowledge transcending." - John of the Cross​

 

[DanielR]

well named I've read you are interested in the Upanishads as well

Don't you too think that what Meister Eckhart speaks about kind of resembles Advaita like his Abgeschiedenheit of the soul and of god which is one. Abgeschiedenheit meaning something like solitude, I don't know the exact English word for it.

I'm trying to find some parallels with Advaita to be honest, would you say I could find them with said Catholic mystics? With Advaita I'm talking about nonduality and something like Atman = Brahman?

 

[lovemuffin]

It seems maybe like more of a comparative religion topic than a catholic DIR topic, but my opinion is that there are definitely parallels between the experiences of Christian mystics and those described as Advaita. There are also certainly important differences in belief and theology and practice also though. A lot really comes down to how this relation between the individual and the Divine is qualified, whether in the various schools of Vedanta or in Christian belief. I don't think they are identical in their conceptions or in their theology but I think there seems to be a universality of a certain kind of experience.

You might be interested in the writings of Father Henri Le Saux, a French Benedictine monk who lived in India much of his life, took the name Abhishiktananda, and wrote about the intersection between Advaita and Christian spirituality. Along with others like Bede Griffiths, and my favorite theologian Raimon Panikkar, there is actually quite a bit out there by way of Hindu-Christian dialogue by Catholic authors. See for example: Swami Abhishiktananada: Essential Writings (Modern Spiritual Masters ): Shirley Du Boulay: 9781570756955: Amazon.com: Books

 

[Vouthon]

well named I've read you are interested in the Upanishads as well

Don't you too think that what Meister Eckhart speaks about kind of resembles Advaita like his Abgeschiedenheit of the soul and of god which is one. Abgeschiedenheit meaning something like solitude, I don't know the exact English word for it.

I'm trying to find some parallels with Advaita to be honest, would you say I could find them with said Catholic mystics? With Advaita I'm talking about nonduality and something like Atman = Brahman?

Hi Daniel,

All Catholic Mystics share broad similarities but there is all great and welcomed diversity. St. Juan de la Cruez (John of the Cross) and St. Teresa of Avila are part of the Spanish Carmelite Mystical Tradition. This is a distinct tradition from the 'Rhino-Flemish' school of which Eckhart was an exponent and innovative thinker. St. John and Eckhart speak of such shared concepts as 'emptiness,' 'union without sense of distinction', 'ineffability', 'detachment,' between God and the soul etc. These similarities are due to them being Catholics and relying on many of the same underlying theological ideas.

None of the mystics are mutually exclusive. They have all influenced one another. However their are also have differences in their epidemiologies and itineraries. St. Juan is a far 'darker' mystic, with a much more austere approach to spirituality whereas Eckhart takes a more balanced approach - emphasising the finding of God in everyday life alongside his more abstract theorizing.

Here is a characteristic example of a Rhineland mystic like Eckhart:

"...THROUGH THREE THINGS A MAN BECOMES GOD-SEEING

Further, you must know that if this spiritual man would now become a God-seeing man, he needs must have three other things. The first is the feeling that the foundation of his being is abysmal, and he should possess it in this manner; the second is that his inward exercise should be wayless; the third is that his indwelling should be a divine fruition.

Now understand, you who would live in the spirit, for I am speaking to no one else. The union with God which a spiritual man feels, when the union is revealed to the spirit as being abysmal; that is, measureless depth, measureless height, measureless length and measureless breadth;in this manifestation the spirit perceives that through love it has plunged itself into the depth and has ascended into the height and escaped into the length; and it feels itself to be wandering in the breadth, and to dwell in a knowledge which is ignorance. And through this intimate feeling of union, it feels itself to be melting into the Unity; and, through dying to all things, into the life of God. And there it feels itself to be one life with God. And this is the foundation, and the first point, of the God-seeing life.

And from this there arises the second point, which is an exercise above reason and without condition: for the Divine Unity, of which every God-seeing spirit has entered into possession in love, eternally draws and invites the Divine Persons and all loving spirits into its self. And this inward drawing is felt by each lover, more or less, according to the measure of his love and the manner of his exercise. And whosoever yields himself to this indrawing, and keeps himself therein, cannot fall into mortal sin. But the God-seeing man who has forsaken self and all things, and does not feel himself drawn away because he no longer possesses anything as his own, but stands empty of all, he can always enter, naked and unencumbered with images, into the inmost part of his spirit. There he finds revealed an Eternal Light, and in this light, he feels the eternal demand of the Divine Unity; and he feels himself to be an eternal fire of love, which craves above all else to be one with God. The more he yields to this indrawing or demand, the more he feels it. And the more he feels it, the more he craves to be one with God; for it urges him to pay the debt which is demanded of him by God. This eternal demand of the Divine Unity kindles within the spirit an eternal fire of love; and though the spirit incessantly pays the debt, an eternal burning continues within it. For, in the transformation within the Unity, all spirits fail in their own activity, and feel nothing else but a burning up of themselves in the simple Unity of God. This simple Unity of God none can feel or possess save he who maintains himself in the immeasurable radiance, and in the love which is above reason and wayless. In this transcendent state the spirit feels in itself the eternal fire of love; and in this fire of love it finds neither beginning nor end, and it feels itself one with this fire of love. The spirit for ever continues to burn in itself, for its love is eternal; and it feels itself ever more and more to be burnt up in love, for it is drawn and transformed into the Unity of God, where the spirit burns in love. If it observes itself, it finds a distinction and an otherness between itself and God; but where it is burnt up it is undifferentiated and without distinction, and therefore it feels nothing but unity; for the flame of the Love of God consumes and devours all that it can enfold in its Self.

And thus you may see that the indrawing Unity of God is nought else than the fathomless Love, which lovingly draws inward, in eternal fruition, the Father and the Son and all that lives in Them. And in this Love we shall burn and be burnt up without end, throughout eternity; for herein lies the blessedness of all spirits. And therefore we must all found our lives upon a fathomless abyss; that we may eternally plunge into Love, and sink down in the fathomless Depth. And with that same Love, we shall ascend, and transcend ourselves, in the incomprehensible Height. And in that Love which is wayless, we shall wander and stray, and it shall lead us and lose us in the immeasurable Breadth of the Love of God. And herein we shall flee forth and flee out of ourselves, into the unknown raptures of the Goodness and Riches of God. And therein we shall melt and be melted away, and shall eternally wander and sojourn within the Glory of God. Behold! by each of these images, I show forth to God-seeing men their being and their exercise, but none else can understand them. For the contemplative life cannot be taught. But where the Eternal Truth reveals Itself within the spirit all that is needful is taught and learnt..."

- Blessed John of Ruysbroeck (1298 - 1381), The Sparkling Stone
​

Outside the Rhino-Flemish tradition, you can also consider the Italian mystics such as Blessed Jacapone da Todi and St. Catherine of Genoa who are different again from either of the preceding two:

"...On achieving their desired end
Human powers cease to function,
And the soul sees that what it thought was right
Was wrong. A new exchange occurs
At that point where all light disappears;
A new and unsought state is needed:
The soul has what it did not love,
And is stripped of all it possessed, no matter how dear.

It is within and sees no exit;
It no longer knows how to think of itself
Or to speak of the wondrous change.
It ventures forth
Onto a sea without a shore
And gazes on Beauty without colour or hue.

There is no other action at those heights;
What the questing soul once was it has ceased to be.
Neither heat nor fiery love
Nor suffering has place here.
This is not light as the soul has imagined it.
All it had sought it must now forget,
And pass on to a new world,
Beyond its powers of perception.

Until you reach this point, and the self is annihilated,
Everything you think is true is really false.
You do not yet have in you pure charity
While you can think of 'yourself'
And the 'victory' you are 'striving' for.

Oh, the futility of seeking to convey
With images and feelings
That which surpasses all measure!
The futility of seeking
To make infinite powers ours!..."

- Blessed Jacopone da Todi (1230 - 1306), Catholic mystic & Franciscan poet​

"...I no longer see union, for I know nothing more and can see nothing more than Him alone without me. I do not know where the I is, nor do I seek it, nor do I wish to know or be cognizant of it. I am so plunged and submerged in the source of his infinite love, as if I were quite under water in the sea and could not touch, see, feel anything on any side except water...I see without eyes, and I hear without ears. I feel without feeling and taste without tasting. I know neither form nor measure; for without seeing I yet behold an operation so divine that the words I first used, perfection, purity, and the like, seem to me now mere lies in the presence of truth...Nor can I any longer say, "My God, my all!" Everything is mine, for all that is God's seem to be wholly mine. I am mute and lost in God...My I is God, and I know of no other I than this my God...In this way God so transforms the soul into Himself, its God, that it sees nothing but God...The more the soul is purified, so much the more it annihilates self till at last it becomes quire pure and rests in God...Thus purified the soul rests in God without any alloy of self; my very being is God...Everything that has being has it from God's highest essence through participation; but the pure and clear love cannot be content with seeing that it has acquired God through participation, nor with his being in it as a creature...My being is God, not through participation only, but through true transformation and through annihilation of my own being...So in God is my me, my I, my strength, my bliss, my desire..."

- Saint Catherine of Genoa (1447-1510), Catholic mystic ​

Catholic means "universal" and the same logic holds for our mystical traditions

 

[DanielR]

thanks for your answers guys. I like those quotes, does sound a bit like Advaita to me !

I'm actually raised Eastern Orthodox Christian but I'm kind of leaning more towards Catholicism because I don't agree with the Energies-Essence distinction in EOC.

But I don't know if Christianity can satisfy my interest for non-duality hence me being Advaitin right now. Still in the searching process but Meister Eckhart's theories and metaphysics appeal to me.

Oh and of course this thread can be moved to comparative religion, I was not sure where to put it in.

 

[Vouthon]

thanks for your answers guys. I like those quotes, does sound a bit like Advaita to me !

I'm actually raised Eastern Orthodox Christian but I'm kind of leaning more towards Catholicism because I don't agree with the Energies-Essence distinction in EOC.

But I don't know if Christianity can satisfy my interest for non-duality hence me being Advaitin right now. Still in the searching process but Meister Eckhart's theories and metaphysics appeal to me.

Oh and of course this thread can be moved to comparative religion, I was not sure where to put it in.

Daniel,

Just to note since you were raised in Orthodoxy, that Catholicism also recognizes and embraces the Hesychast tradition of the Philokalia through its Eastern Rites

"...In the East, hesychasm means a method of prayer characterized by a deep tranquility of the spirit, which is engaged in constant contemplation of God by invoking the name of Jesus...We should acknowledge the good intentions which guided the defence of this spiritual method, that is, to emphasize the concrete possibility that man is given to unite himself with the Triune God in the intimacy of his heart, in that deep union of grace which Eastern theology likes to describe with the particularly powerful term of "theosis", "divinization".

Precisely in this regard Eastern spirituality has amassed a very rich experience which was vigorously presented in the famous collection of texts significantly entitled Philokalia (love of beauty") and gathered by Nicodemus the Hagiorite at the end of the 18th century. Down the centuries until our day, Eastern theological reflection has undergone interesting developments, not only in the classical areas of the Byzantine and Russian tradition, but also in the Orthodox communities scattered throughout the world. One need only recall, among the many studies worthy of mention, the Theology of Beauty elaborated by Pavel Nikolaievich Evdokimov, which is based on the Eastern art of the icon, and the study of the doctrine of "divinization" by the Orthodox scholar, Loth Borovine.

How many things we have in common! It is time for Catholics and Orthodox to make an extra effort to understand each other better and to recognize with the renewed wonder of brotherhood what the Spirit is accomplishing in their respective traditions towards a new Christian springtime..."

- Saint Pope John Paul II (Angelus, August 11, 1996)​