"Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

[Clara Tea]

Let me ask you this: if Noah had used built the ark out of metal or mud, do you think it would have saved him and his family from the flood? What about if he had built it out of pine or oak? God told him to use gopher wood. If he had changed the pattern he was given by God, do you think for a moment that he would have been saved?

Here's another example: Nadab and Abihu offered fire that was from a source God did not authorize. He killed them on the spot and demanded they not be mourned. Was the pattern important here?

Finally, when the children of Israel were besieged by a plague of snakes due to their infidelity, God gave them a way out. They were to look upon a brass serpent that Moses had raised up on a pole. If anyone did not look at it, do you think he would have been saved from his snake bite, which was the just punishment for his sins?

These are three good examples which you can find in the Old Testament, patterns which, while they are different in their particulars, show God's insistence on obedience, and not just to the general plan, but to the exact pattern. When you mention Jesus's disputing with the Pharisees, it was because they had added their own traditions to the Law of Moses, things like a ceremonial washing of the hands before eating, and performing one's oaths before God. He wasn't saying that washing your hands before you eat was a bad thing, mind, but that it was of little importance in the grand scheme of things. That doesn't exclude obedience to those things which are commanded of us by God, doesn't mean that you don't have to do as you're told, because it is God who is telling you.

President W. Bush confused worship with war ship. War ships are made of iron, and they float. Airplanes are made of anodized aluminum, and they fly through the air. Of course much of that miracle is because air takes a longer path over the top of the wing, so the pressure is less (google Joukowski airfoil). Explain, then, how a plane can fly upside down. If a plane presses down on air below it, why aren't people on the ground crushed? A nun's uniform is called a habit. Isn't it true that the flying nun was lofted by the force of habit?

If not for gopher wood, gophers might have refused to get on the ark....then no more gophers. It's like the Gay dinosaurs.

Were the people who didn't look at the brass snake also saved from snakes?

Maybe the bible isn't the only book that we must follow? War of the Worlds says that Martians will attack earth. Maybe if we went out with shotguns at night, we might spot one of those 40 foot tall, three legged Martians so we could blast it? Those cleaver Matians substituted a water tower in Grover's Mill, New Jersey for a dead Martian, just to discredit us. (source: hypertext link below)

Grovers Mill, NJ - Water Tower Mistaken for a Martian

 

[Clara Tea]

That's exactly right. This is also demonstrated when Pilate specifically asks Jesus if He is the King of the Jews in John 18:33-37. (NKJV quoted below.)

33 Then Pilate entered the Praetorium again, called Jesus, and said to Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?”

34 Jesus answered him, “Are you speaking for yourself about this, or did others tell you this concerning Me?”

35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered You to me. What have You done?”

36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

37 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”

Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

The cowardly lion of Oz sang "If I was king of the jungle."

 

[Clara Tea]

The covenant between God and the earth after the flood was that He wouldn't destroy the world with water again.

Genesis 9:11
Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.

Just a few verses earlier, He says,
"Whoever sheds man’s blood,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God
He made man."

But there have been smaller floods. For example, Jeb Bush said that he talked to God, and God had promised him, that while he was governor of Florida, no hurricane would hit Florida. A hurricane did hit, shortly after he said that it wouldn't, so he said that it only hurt the trailer trash, leaving the rich people who were holy (in strong homes). I had no idea that God was so accommodating.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

2Peter mentions a situation in which the covenant with Noah has either paused or ceased: "6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly." (2 Peter 3:6-7) This may not be literal, but it may. If so then the covenant with Noah concerning planet Earth has at this time ceased, but what is 2Peter's reason that this will happen? "3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires." (2 Peter 3:3)

And the fire idea is mentioned in the gospels as well, in luke 3:16 and 12:49, for example. One idea is that it may be a metaphor, that 'fire' refers to some kind of renewed passion that man gains for god. Unfortunately, it seems like the 'literal fire' idea is possible, though man would cause it and not god, for the powers that be could destroy human life a few times over with their nuclear arsenals. I consider the latest news on Ukraine for example, to be of a nature not repeatable on this planet forever, even if nothing comes of that situation

The action of using nukes, and the result, seem to be descriptive of a very plain kind of evil. It is one however, that seems indiscriminate in judgement, and possibly to be caused by the clashing egos of small groups of individuals. However, it is the de facto destructive powers of a god, with what only a destroying god might do with fire, that man can now wield.

But it isn't clear that man might not also cause extensive sea level rise. In any case, maybe man should escape the covenants and produce the ark to mars, and baptize himself in martian dust. Maybe the story of Noah was a possible vision of the future, along with that of Peter, and neither have happened yet, but can avoided in various ways, one of which is to produce the ark, for it doesn't look like enough weapons are being made into plowshares at this point. And with various arsenal treaties seeming to come undone in the past few years, from what I can tell

 

[EtuMalku]

Why then do so many deny that either repentance or baptism are requirements of salvation?

Baptism originally had nothing to do with the Abrahamic idea of repentance and salvation. The association of water with spiritual cleanliness was not unknown to societies from Mesopotamia, onwards through Egyptian civilizations, where babies were washed in water, to clean the impurities of the womb from them.

John was a Jewish prophet and of the Essenes who already practiced Baptism. Perhaps given the facts that baptism is not unique to Christianity as I have shown here, is the reason why so many deny it as a requirement?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Baptism originally had nothing to do with the Abrahamic idea of repentance and salvation. The association of water with spiritual cleanliness was not unknown to societies from Mesopotamia, onwards through Egyptian civilizations, where babies were washed in water, to clean the impurities of the womb from them.

Something like it is also presented several times in the norse sagas

 

[Fool]

What ineffable name? If you read the books of Samuel they use God's name in common conversation. The idea that you can't speak God's name is modern Judaism. In ancient Judaism they had no such rule. To take God's name in vain was most likely originally to swear falsely in his name.

there isn't a problem using the name. the problem is taking it exclusively for self, in vain, and not recognizing it in other as self.


here is an example of how the name got someone in trouble with moses

Leviticus 24:10-16

In appearance, YHWH is the third person singular imperfect of the verb "to be", meaning, therefore, "He is". This explanation agrees with the meaning of the name given in Exodus 3:14, where God is represented as speaking, and hence as using the first person — "I am." It stems from the Hebrew conception of monotheism that God exists by himself, the uncreated Creator who doesn't depend on anything or anyone else; therefore I am who I am.


there is no first person in hebrew and actually it is translated I will be what I will be. In other words, you cannot define god because god is all.

jeremiah 23:24

so the name given in exodus 3:15 is a derivation of the name; which is a verb, in exodus 3:14.

so then the father, the son, and the holy ghost have one being, the three are the gist of one. this was understood in hermetic and gnostic circles.

 

[exchemist]

So if you believe in the God of the Bible, then how do these lost souls find salvation?
Doing 'good deeds' ???
There's this beautiful painting of a native American young woman, bowing before a
totem pole in the moonlight. Often wonder about that - it's said in the bible that God
knows who loves Him. And if people love God truly then we would expect they would
have to express that love in different ways. But it would be the same God, same Spirit,
same bond of love, same grace etc. that would unit such people with those who were
called 'the children of Israel.'
But good works? I doubt it. Even Hitler did good deeds.

So tell me, do you think all the Muslims, Hindus, Jews and people of no faith are damned to hell when they die?

 

[exchemist]

Let me ask you this: if Noah had used built the ark out of metal or mud, do you think it would have saved him and his family from the flood? What about if he had built it out of pine or oak? God told him to use gopher wood. If he had changed the pattern he was given by God, do you think for a moment that he would have been saved?

Here's another example: Nadab and Abihu offered fire that was from a source God did not authorize. He killed them on the spot and demanded they not be mourned. Was the pattern important here?

Finally, when the children of Israel were besieged by a plague of snakes due to their infidelity, God gave them a way out. They were to look upon a brass serpent that Moses had raised up on a pole. If anyone did not look at it, do you think he would have been saved from his snake bite, which was the just punishment for his sins?

These are three good examples which you can find in the Old Testament, patterns which, while they are different in their particulars, show God's insistence on obedience, and not just to the general plan, but to the exact pattern. When you mention Jesus's disputing with the Pharisees, it was because they had added their own traditions to the Law of Moses, things like a ceremonial washing of the hands before eating, and performing one's oaths before God. He wasn't saying that washing your hands before you eat was a bad thing, mind, but that it was of little importance in the grand scheme of things. That doesn't exclude obedience to those things which are commanded of us by God, doesn't mean that you don't have to do as you're told, because it is God who is telling you.

It is amusing how nobody has any idea whatsoever what is meant by gofer or gopher wood: Gopher wood - Wikipedia.

Opinions range from the timber from up to ten (10) different types of tree, to the form of planks used in construction, or the coating applied, or even bullrushes. (As it happens a metal ark would have served very well indeed, though obviously that would not have been feasible for Noah.)

The entire story, which is clearly allegorical rather than a historical account (since there is no evidence of a worldwide flood), looks like a reworking of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Trying to attach meaning to tiny details of the the story seems unlikely to reveal much of value.

But you are right that one intended lesson of it may be to teach obedience to God's word - and to teach trust in it.

 

[CrochetOverCoffee]

Puts plastic flower in lapel, with squirt bulb (have to Baptize everyone whether they want it or not).

If you want to drive, you have to get a licence. But no one is forcing you to drive. Your analogy is erroneous.

 

[CrochetOverCoffee]

The capacity of Christians to disregard Jesus never ceases to astound me.

How is acknowledging that God wrote both Testaments and using the Old Testament for examples (not for authority, which is a different question) disregarding Jesus? The Old Testament was the Scripture Jesus had to work from, so He used it, too.

 

[CrochetOverCoffee]

It is amusing how nobody has any idea whatsoever what is meant by gofer or gopher wood: Gopher wood - Wikipedia.

Opinions range from the timber from up to ten (10) different types of tree, to the form of planks used in construction, or the coating applied, or even bullrushes. (As it happens a metal ark would have served very well indeed, though obviously that would not have been feasible for Noah.)

The entire story, which is clearly allegorical rather than a historical account (since there is no evidence of a worldwide flood), looks like a reworking of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Trying to attach meaning to tiny details of the the story seems unlikely to reveal much of value.

But you are right that one intended lesson of it may be to teach obedience to God's word - and to teach trust in it.

At least you seem to understand what I was saying.

 

[CrochetOverCoffee]

So tell me, do you think all the Muslims, Hindus, Jews and people of no faith are damned to hell when they die?

That's a bigger question, I think, not covered by this thread.

 

[CrochetOverCoffee]

The cowardly lion of Oz sang "If I was king of the jungle."

??

 

[CrochetOverCoffee]

But there have been smaller floods. For example, Jeb Bush said that he talked to God, and God had promised him, that while he was governor of Florida, no hurricane would hit Florida. A hurricane did hit, shortly after he said that it wouldn't, so he said that it only hurt the trailer trash, leaving the rich people who were holy (in strong homes). I had no idea that God was so accommodating.

God didn't promise no floods. He promised not to destroy the planet with water again.

 

[exchemist]

That's a bigger question, I think, not covered by this thread.

I agree it is a very big question - and a very important one for what motivates people to accept or reject what they think Christianity says about salvation.

But I'd still like to hear what @PruePhillip has to say.

I have always tended to rely on John 14:2 In my father's house are many rooms. But you are perhaps right that this would warrant a separate thread.

 

[PruePhillip]

It is amusing how nobody has any idea whatsoever what is meant by gofer or gopher wood: Gopher wood - Wikipedia.

Opinions range from the timber from up to ten (10) different types of tree, to the form of planks used in construction, or the coating applied, or even bullrushes. (As it happens a metal ark would have served very well indeed, though obviously that would not have been feasible for Noah.)

The entire story, which is clearly allegorical rather than a historical account (since there is no evidence of a worldwide flood), looks like a reworking of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Trying to attach meaning to tiny details of the the story seems unlikely to reveal much of value.

But you are right that one intended lesson of it may be to teach obedience to God's word - and to teach trust in it.

The bibe has a layered construction.
Perhaps for a reason.
The pre-Abraham era is Sumeria or Akkadian in origin.
Abraham and his parents who migrated into Syria somewhere is the beginning of the Hebrew account.
And the finding of the true Sodom and Gomorrah at Tel al Hammond in the Jordan Valley has given us
a DATE for Abraham - he was 100 years exactly when that air burst happened. So Abraham was born
ca 1750 BC. At 100 Isaac was born and the Egyptian throne fell to the Semites - perhaps linked to the
destruction in the Jordan Valley as yet more 'Hyksos' poured into Egypt. This enabled on very famous
Hyksos to emerge - Joseph. And Moses left Egypt at the time of the Bronze Age collapse - a time when
EVERYONE was on the move.

 

[blü 2]

I dispute your interpretation of the text, as I have already explained.

Mark 2:20 The days will come when the bridegroom is taken from you ...​

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he said this plainly. ...

Mark 14:35 And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. 36 And he said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt."​

Or consider Luke's Last Supper scene:

Luke 22:21 But behold the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table.22 For the Son of man goes as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"​

That is, Jesus knows that he'll be "betrayed" but, he says, his fate has already been determined. So he doesn't catch the midnight donkey-train to Galilee ─ he stays where he is, where he can be found, so that things can go "as it has been determined".

And those verses are just a sample. In all four gospels he says he's on a suicide mission, he makes sure it ends in his death, and he succeeds.

Where do you say it says anything different?

(Incidentally, at no time does he explain why it's necessary for him to die, or what his death can achieve that God couldn't achieve just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers. Nor have I ever figured out a sensible answer to that question.)

 

[PruePhillip]

So tell me, do you think all the Muslims, Hindus, Jews and people of no faith are damned to hell when they die?

Who am I to judge another?
God knows those who love him.
If you are an observant Jew but lack the spirit of God's grace, are you saved?
If you are a pagan who yearns for this God given grace but have no opportunity to
read or hear scripture - does God condemn you for what you can't help?

 

[exchemist]

The bibe has a layered construction.
Perhaps for a reason.
The pre-Abraham era is Sumeria or Akkadian in origin.
Abraham and his parents who migrated into Syria somewhere is the beginning of the Hebrew account.
And the finding of the true Sodom and Gomorrah at Tel al Hammond in the Jordan Valley has given us
a DATE for Abraham - he was 100 years exactly when that air burst happened. So Abraham was born
ca 1750 BC. At 100 Isaac was born and the Egyptian throne fell to the Semites - perhaps linked to the
destruction in the Jordan Valley as yet more 'Hyksos' poured into Egypt. This enabled on very famous
Hyksos to emerge - Joseph. And Moses left Egypt at the time of the Bronze Age collapse - a time when
EVERYONE was on the move.

What connection does any of this have to my post?