Men have authority over women

[McBell]

Your BoM versus aren't going to be recognized as scripture by the majority of Christianity so I don't feel like they need to be addressed here. We are in the Biblical Debates forum, not the Book of Mormon Debates forum.

Would this not be considered "stacking the deck?"

 

[Prometheus]

My pleasure. To imply that I am a hypocrite, after years of studying this subject...well, just don't even go there...I'm not the smartest person out there, but I'm thorough in my research, and I would never hold someone else to a standard that I don't hold myself to. I wouldn't even be having this discussion unless I'm quite sure of what I'm talking about. (Despite the cold medicine and allergies)

A New Covenant


7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds[a] I will remember no more.”[b]
13 In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 8:7-13

In case you were unaware, the Old and New Testaments are often referred to as the old covenant and the new covenant. With the coming of Jesus, and the writing of the NT, the OT has become obsolete and has vanished away.

You have merrily ignored that these verses speak specifically of the Israelites. Therefore, unless you are an Israelite, there is no new covenant for you. In fact, if you aren't an Israelite, you can't even be a real Christian in the first place. Wouldn't this make God a blatant racist?

 

[Prometheus]

Would this not be considered "stacking the deck?"

No, it is not. I am fully justified in rejecting passages from the Book of Mormon, the Quran and Hop on Pop. Again, this is the Biblical Debates forum. Any verse from a non-biblical source can be discounted.

 

[Bishka]

If you don't have a problem with men having authority over women, then you are a true Christian. If you think men and women should be equals in marriage, you're not a true Christian.

Interestingly enough, this reminds me of the fundamentalist Christians telling other non-traditional Christian groups that they are in 'cults' and are not true Christians because they do not believe in the right Christ. For someone who is not in the faith anymore, you do not have a right to say who is and who is not a 'true Christian'. Let the believers worry about that.

 

[Prometheus]

Interestingly enough, this reminds me of the fundamentalist Christians telling other non-traditional Christian groups that they are in 'cults' and are not true Christians because they do not believe in the right Christ. For someone who is not in the faith anymore, you do not have a right to say who is and who is not a 'true Christian'. Let the believers worry about that.

I have every right to say that as I have every right to make any other judgment I wish. If you really believed in God and also believed that there was a book that literally contained the words and will of this God, shouldn't the most important thing you can do be to read and understand this book? Well, most "Christians" claim these things, yet many have not even read the entire Bible at all. Those who have tend to cherry-pick and ignore parts of it to suite their own biases. The Bible speaks clearly, both in the Old Testament and the New, that women are to be ruled by men. I think it's appropriate that I tell people what kind of religion they actually believe in. I don't see how anyone can believe the Bible is an inspired book and also believe that men and women are equal partners in marriage unless they are ignorant. All you need to do is read what God and His holy prophets have said on the subject and it should become obvious that being a Christian makes you a sexist.

 

[Reverend Rick]

All you need to do is read what God and His holy prophets have said on the subject and it should become obvious that being a Christian makes you a sexist.

Not if you read everything in context. It is a responsibility not a supremacist thing.

You are to treat your women better than you treat yourself and lead by example not dictate from a higher position.

When you put yourself last, you might get a clue about this. Women are to revolt if there husbands do not follow Christ's teachings. No Christian man could mistreat his wife and be following Christ's teachings.

Christian wives have it good and they are blessed with a good husband for life. They are not subservient to abuse.

 

[Prometheus]

Not if you read everything in context. It is a responsibility not a supremacist thing.

You are to treat your women better than you treat yourself and lead by example not dictate from a higher position.

When you put yourself last, you might get a clue about this. Women are to revolt if there husbands do not follow Christ's teachings. No Christian man could mistreat his wife and be following Christ's teachings.

Christian wives have it good and they are blessed with a good husband for life. They are not subservient to abuse.

I understand this position, but well-intentioned, non-abusive sexism is still sexism. Women are not subservient to abuse, but they are still subservient.

I think I've stated enough times in this thread that abuse is not the issue. Sexism is the issue. I'm still waiting for the argument that either proves God is not sexist or that sexism itself is not immoral.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Every time you nit pick a religion thousands of years old and expect it to be politically correct and up to date with the current general opinions of the day, you will be sadly disappointed.

Where I have a problem with your position is, now that you have labeled my religion as sexist, that makes me a sexist. The conclusion would be to dismiss my religion completely would it not?

Not going to happen my friend. Christians are not going anywhere and the religious right will continue to do battle and win on many social issues.

I think you are Christianophobic, so I will dismiss your rhetoric now that I have labeled you. My example is the exact same as you labeling all us Christians as sexist.

It is a cheap shot that may work in forums, but in real life we see who still runs things. You should be so fortunate to have the political muscle the religious right has.

I believe you suffer from political muscle envy. I could be wrong about this.

 

[Panda]

Rather arrogant is it not Reverend Rick?

Anyway I would like to ask you to define sexism. What do you view as sexist? I personally would say that Christianity was sexist and has over the years encouraged sexism. However I think if we view the now the vast majority are not sexist and this is viewed as a culture difference, not a religious one. Am I correct in saying this?

 

[MaddLlama]

Every time you nit pick a religion thousands of years old and expect it to be politically correct and up to date with the current general opinions of the day, you will be sadly disappointed.

Bingo

 

[McBell]

Every time you nit pick a religion thousands of years old and expect it to be politically correct and up to date with the current general opinions of the day, you will be sadly disappointed.

Frubals!
If only it would let me:sad4:

:sorry1:

 

[daemonikus]

You are to treat your women better than you treat yourself and lead

its the fact that that last word you used is only applicable to the man in the marriage that most of us have a problem with. whether you refer to it as sexism or prejudice or the religious subjugation of women. the fact that a culture was 'inspired by god' to make the man the head of the household without question is rather ridiculous in light of todays (at least mostly) rationally thinking society.

also, they are not your women. thats a property statement. better be careful with those.

Christians are not going anywhere and the religious right will continue to do battle and win on many social issues.

i find it interesting that there are very few people who are trying to stop christians from having certain rights. yes there have been occasions. such as the right to pray in school. (and for the record, i DO think christians should be able to pray in school. i DONT think the lords prayer should be played over the p.a system). it is your right to have your beliefs, but dont use your religion as a weapon to fight against the rights of others.

 

[Prometheus]

Every time you nit pick a religion thousands of years old and expect it to be politically correct and up to date with the current general opinions of the day, you will be sadly disappointed.

Your religion worships a God which, supposedly, is the moral absolute of reality. The Bible demonstrates that this God is sexist. Judeo-Christian religions, then, would have us accept that being sexist is moral.

Where I have a problem with your position is, now that you have labeled my religion as sexist, that makes me a sexist. The conclusion would be to dismiss my religion completely would it not?

If sexism is immoral and your sexist God is the supreme moral authority of the universe, then, yes, your religion contradicts itself and should be dismissed.

Not going to happen my friend. Christians are not going anywhere and the religious right will continue to do battle and win on many social issues.

I think you are Christianophobic, so I will dismiss your rhetoric now that I have labeled you. My example is the exact same as you labeling all us Christians as sexist.

It is a cheap shot that may work in forums, but in real life we see who still runs things. You should be so fortunate to have the political muscle the religious right has.

I believe you suffer from political muscle envy. I could be wrong about this.

So you believe that because you have the bigger gun it makes you right?

 

[Prometheus]

However I think if we view the now the vast majority are not sexist and this is viewed as a culture difference, not a religious one. Am I correct in saying this?

Individual Christians may or may not be sexist, but the God they worship and seek to emulate is sexist.

 

[MaddLlama]

Individual Christians may or may not be sexist, but the God they worship and seek to immulate is sexist.

Christians seek to emulate the work of Christ, not the character of God, and certainly not the character of God in the OT.

 

[Prometheus]

Christians seek to emulate the work of Christ, not the character of God, and certainly not the character of God in the OT.

Matthew 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Yes, they do.

 

[Reverend Rick]

So you believe that because you have the bigger gun it makes you right?

I don't know who is right. I blindly follow my religion and trust in the Lord.

The bigger gun is useless unless you are proficient with it. Christians did not invent the game, we just learned how to play it.

 

[Prometheus]

I don't know who is right. I blindly follow my religion and trust in the Lord.

This is dangerous thinking. Especially when you have the political power you do. I don't envy Christian political power, but I am frightened by it.

 

[Panda]

Only a fool will follow something blindy, when they have the choice to open their eyes

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

You have merrily ignored that these verses speak specifically of the Israelites. Therefore, unless you are an Israelite, there is no new covenant for you. In fact, if you aren't an Israelite, you can't even be a real Christian in the first place. Wouldn't this make God a blatant racist?

Which would mean you are contradicting this statement:

Guess Who? has it right. She's sexist and she's honest about it. This is a true Christian.

So make up your mind. With your profound understanding of Christianity, which you have demonstrated in recent posts, please do enlighten me...am I or am I not a real, true Christian?

Oh, and I would like the Bible verses that say Israelites are the only ones who can be true Christians, thanks.

I'm waiting on the edge of my seat...I'm sure the next thing you will make up rather than admitting you're wrong will be even better than the last.