Messengers and Prophets (Rasool & Nabi)

[InvestigateTruth]

There are two kinds of Prophets.

There are the Prophets who are the Founders of great Religions. They established new covenants in their own Period and revealed a new Laws.

These Prophets are Rasool and Nabi

There are other prophets who are not Founders of any Faith, and did not reveal a new Law. Their function has been to promote the Religion of the Rasoul. These are Nabiyeen, but are not Rasool.

For example Moses was Founder of a Religion but Solomon was a Nabi. Soloman was not a Messenger. His function was to promote Religion that Moses founded.

Every Messenger is also a Prophet, but not every Prophet is a Messenger.
For example, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad are both Nabi and Rasool.
But those Prophets who were not founder of any Religion were not Messengers, they were only Prophet (Nabi).


But, what can be confusing, is that, there is a difference between Messenger of God, and Messenger of a Prophet.


For example Jesus had 12 messengers (murseleen). These twelve apostles known as Hawwarioun were Messengers of Jesus. But in the Gospels, they are referred as Apostles. In Quran, Apostle and Messenger are translation of the the same word Rasool. This can be confusing, since sometimes in the Quran, an Apostle might be of the same station as Apostles of Jesus, and in some cases, He is the Apostle of God

In the Quran, there is a similar word, for Messenger or Apostle, and that is Rasool vs Mursal (رسل و مرسلين).

Let's discover this farther from verses of the Quran.

 

[Link]

Salam

The Quran says Musa (a) was followed up with Messengers (Rusul). Also concerning Samuel (a), Talut (a) and Dawood (a) it says "these Messengers..." in Surah Baqara.

I take it Nubuwa is job of God, because you never see a verse that says "upon the Nabi is only..". Rather he is a conduit, one who channels.

Yet regarding messenger job, you see God says "upon the Messenger is only the clear message".

And we see Ghadeer declaration in 5:67 is part of the message although not part of Quran. So they are two different roles, although, they overlap most of the time.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

The Quran says Musa (a) was followed up with Messengers (Rusul). Also concerning Samuel (a), Talut (a) and Dawood (a) it says "these Messengers..." in Surah Baqara.

It would be interesting to see these verses.
Do you know verse numbers?

 

[Link]

It would be interesting to see these verses.
Do you know verse numbers?

Salam

وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَابَ وَقَفَّيْنَا مِنْ بَعْدِهِ بِالرُّسُلِ ۖ وَآتَيْنَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَيَّدْنَاهُ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ ۗ أَفَكُلَّمَا جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ بِمَا لَا تَهْوَىٰ أَنْفُسُكُمُ اسْتَكْبَرْتُمْ فَفَرِيقًا كَذَّبْتُمْ وَفَرِيقًا تَقْتُلُونَ | Certainly, We gave Moses the Book and followed him with the apostles, and We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, manifest proofs and confirmed him with the Holy Spirit. Is it not that whenever an apostle brought you that which was not to your liking, you would act arrogantly; so you would impugn a group [of them], and slay a[nother] group? | Al-Baqara : 87

تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ ۘ مِنْهُمْ مَنْ كَلَّمَ اللَّهُ ۖ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَاتٍ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَيَّدْنَاهُ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ ۗ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ مَا اقْتَتَلَ الَّذِينَ مِنْ بَعْدِهِمْ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ وَلَٰكِنِ اخْتَلَفُوا فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ آمَنَ وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ كَفَرَ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ مَا اقْتَتَلُوا وَلَٰكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَفْعَلُ مَا يُرِيدُ | These are the apostles, some of whom We gave an advantage over others: of them are those to whom Allah spoke and some of them He raised in rank, and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, manifest proofs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Had Allah wished, those who succeeded them would not have fought one another after the manifest proofs had come to them. But they differed. So there were among them those who had faith and there were among them those who were faithless, and had Allah wished, they would not have fought one another; but Allah does whatever He desires. | Al-Baqara : 253

"telkal" means the ones just mentioned are Messengers and it states this after mentioned the part of the story of Samuel (a), Talut (a) and Dawood (a).


إِنَّا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ كَمَا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ نُوحٍ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ مِنْ بَعْدِهِ ۚ وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَعِيسَىٰ وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُونُسَ وَهَارُونَ وَسُلَيْمَانَ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ زَبُورًا | We have indeed revealed to you as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him, and [as] We revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, Jesus and Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon—and We gave David the Psalms— | An-Nisaa : 163

The verse after "and Messengers we recounted earlier and Messengers we did not recount to you..." implies the above are all Messengers. It's implicit.

وَرُسُلًا قَدْ قَصَصْنَاهُمْ عَلَيْكَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَرُسُلًا لَمْ نَقْصُصْهُمْ عَلَيْكَ ۚ وَكَلَّمَ اللَّهُ مُوسَىٰ تَكْلِيمًا | and apostles We have recounted to you earlier and apostles We have not recounted to you—and to Moses Allah spoke directly— | An-Nisaa : 164

Also regarding the covenant:

لَقَدْ أَخَذْنَا مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهِمْ رُسُلًا ۖ كُلَّمَا جَاءَهُمْ رَسُولٌ بِمَا لَا تَهْوَىٰ أَنْفُسُهُمْ فَرِيقًا كَذَّبُوا وَفَرِيقًا يَقْتُلُونَ | Certainly We took a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We sent apostles to them. Whenever an apostle brought them that which was not to their liking, they would impugn a part of them, and a part they would slay. | Al-Maaida : 70

It's obvious that the covenant was in regards to the Messengers. And verse 5:12 emphasizes if they honor and help the Messengers and so the Successors of Musa (a) were obviously Messengers.

فَأْتِيَاهُ فَقُولَا إِنَّا رَسُولَا رَبِّكَ فَأَرْسِلْ مَعَنَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَلَا تُعَذِّبْهُمْ ۖ قَدْ جِئْنَاكَ بِآيَةٍ مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۖ وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَىٰ مَنِ اتَّبَعَ الْهُدَىٰ | So approach him and say, ‘‘We are two apostles of your Lord. Let the Children of Israel go with us, and do not torture them! We certainly bring you a sign from your Lord, and may peace be upon him who follows guidance! | Taa-Haa : 47

Here Haroun (a) is referred to as a Messenger along with Musa (a).

ثُمَّ أَرْسَلْنَا رُسُلَنَا تَتْرَىٰ ۖ كُلَّ مَا جَاءَ أُمَّةً رَسُولُهَا كَذَّبُوهُ ۚ فَأَتْبَعْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ بَعْضًا وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَحَادِيثَ ۚ فَبُعْدًا لِقَوْمٍ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ | Then We sent Our apostles successively. Whenever there came to a nation its apostle, they impugned him, so We made them follow one another [to extinction] and We turned them into folktales. So away with the faithless lot! | Al-Muminoon : 44

ثُمَّ أَرْسَلْنَا مُوسَىٰ وَأَخَاهُ هَارُونَ بِآيَاتِنَا وَسُلْطَانٍ مُبِينٍ | Then We sent Moses and Aaron, his brother, with Our signs and a manifest authority | Al-Muminoon : 45

These verses show up until Musa (a) and Haroun (a) were sent, Messengers were sent in quick succession one after the other, that is what the term " تَتْرَىٰ" implies.

Also, not all Messengers are Nabis, and this implied in the following verse:

تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ ۘ مِنْهُمْ مَنْ كَلَّمَ اللَّهُ ۖ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَاتٍ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَيَّدْنَاهُ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ ۗ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ مَا اقْتَتَلَ الَّذِينَ مِنْ بَعْدِهِمْ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ وَلَٰكِنِ اخْتَلَفُوا فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ آمَنَ وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ كَفَرَ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ مَا اقْتَتَلُوا وَلَٰكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَفْعَلُ مَا يُرِيدُ | These are the apostles, some of whom We gave an advantage over others: of them are those to whom Allah spoke and some of them He raised in rank, and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, manifest proofs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Had Allah wished, those who succeeded them would not have fought one another after the manifest proofs had come to them. But they differed. So there were among them those who had faith and there were among them those who were faithless, and had Allah wished, they would not have fought one another; but Allah does whatever He desires. | Al-Baqara : 253

So minhum means in sub group of Messengers that God spoke to.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I would like to add a thought to this topic, as it is something I have been contemplating from what I understand Baha'u'llah is offering.

Firstly God gives us all of this knowledge via the Holy Spirit as we know Allah is above all mention and praise.

All the Messengers are of the Same Holy Spirit, they are One in God and it is God that Annoints each Messenger in the differnt Names, Stations and relative Capacity. Baha'u'llah tells us that they are in reality all One and we can make no distinction between the Messengers.

There is a passage from Baha'u'llah

"..Great indeed is this Day! The allusions made to it in all the sacred Scriptures as the Day of God attest its greatness. The soul of every Prophet of God, of every Divine Messenger, hath thirsted for this wondrous Day.."

So every Messenger has longed for this Day, the age of the "Greateat Name" the Name that is mentioned in the Tanakh, the Name that the Jews see as being to Holy to speak.

We have also been told that both the Bab and Baha'u'llah have identified that it was they that spoke to Moses therough the burning Bush, so in reality it was the "Greatest Name", the Holy Spirit communicating with its own essence.

So this has opened a whole new contemplation as to the interaction of God with the Messengers and the subsequent interaction of the Messengers with Humanity.

It enables us to view the passages @Link posted above with new frames of references.

The differences are only relative to our perceptions.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

I would like to add a thought to this topic, as it is something I have been contemplating from what I understand Baha'u'llah is offering.

Firstly God gives us all of this knowledge via the Holy Spirit as we know Allah is above all mention and praise.

All the Messengers are of the Same Holy Spirit, they are One in God and it is God that Annoints each Messenger in the differnt Names, Stations and relative Capacity. Baha'u'llah tells us that they are in reality all One and we can make no distinction between the Messengers.

There is a passage from Baha'u'llah

"..Great indeed is this Day! The allusions made to it in all the sacred Scriptures as the Day of God attest its greatness. The soul of every Prophet of God, of every Divine Messenger, hath thirsted for this wondrous Day.."

So every Messenger has longed for this Day, the age of the "Greateat Name" the Name that is mentioned in the Tanakh, the Name that the Jews see as being to Holy to speak.

We have also been told that both the Bab and Baha'u'llah have identified that it was they that spoke to Moses therough the burning Bush, so in reality it was the "Greatest Name", the Holy Spirit communicating with its own essence.

So this has opened a whole new contemplation as to the interaction of God with the Messengers and the subsequent interaction of the Messengers with Humanity.

It enables us to view the passages @Link posted above with new frames of references.

The differences are only relative to our perceptions.

Regards Tony

There is the fact the Prophets, Imams, Messengers, holy ladies like Sarah, Fatima and Mariam (upon them blessings and peace) all have the holy spirit and speak in exalted way. This is important, but God speaks ways way higher then them even.

The Quran I can tell is words of God. When I read Bahai texts, it feels like a fabrication (to attribute to God) and less eloquent than most speech.

وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ افْتَرَىٰ عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِبًا أَوْ قَالَ أُوحِيَ إِلَيَّ وَلَمْ يُوحَ إِلَيْهِ شَيْءٌ وَمَنْ قَالَ سَأُنْزِلُ مِثْلَ مَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ ۗ وَلَوْ تَرَىٰ إِذِ الظَّالِمُونَ فِي غَمَرَاتِ الْمَوْتِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَاسِطُو أَيْدِيهِمْ أَخْرِجُوا أَنْفُسَكُمُ ۖ الْيَوْمَ تُجْزَوْنَ عَذَابَ الْهُونِ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ غَيْرَ الْحَقِّ وَكُنْتُمْ عَنْ آيَاتِهِ تَسْتَكْبِرُونَ | Who is a greater wrongdoer than him who fabricates a lie against Allah, or says, ‘It has been revealed to me,’ while nothing was revealed to him, and he who says, ‘I will bring the like of what Allah has sent down?’ Were you to see when the wrongdoers are in the throes of death, and the angels extend their hands [saying]: ‘Give up your souls! Today you shall be requited with a humiliating punishment because of what you used to attribute to Allah untruly, and for your being arrogant towards His signs.’ | Al-An'aam : 93


I see no comparison between Quran's beauty and bahai text. They are worlds apart.

 

[Link]

Mursal (رسل و مرسلين).

Good you noticed this. Most of mankind equates mursal, with Rasool or Nabi. Mursal means sent, and so it means those sent by God.

However, mursaleen are exalted chosen souls. The disciples were selected in this world, but not pre-world. Mursaleen refers to those selected in pre-world and who are guaranteed safety in both worlds. They are sent with God's knowledge that they won't deviate and he knows their path will be straight.

Disciples are severely warned not to disbelieve and that if anyone does, because of the signs levels they been shown, he will punish them with a punishment he won't punish anyone else.

Disciples are not Mursaleen. They are volatile, albeit, they are highly pious, but they gained their Isma in this world for responding to Isa (a) in the way they did.

God choose them in this world, which is not the same as the chosen pre-world. The chosen souls pre-world, God sends them as a mercy to guide people, not that they are need of trial themselves.

Mursal applies to Imams (a) and is more comprehensive, and Surah Dukhan showns that God has always been sending in the past, is now, and will continue to send in the future, so there is always a mursal on earth.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I see no comparison between Quran's beauty and bahai text. They are worlds apart.

I see the beauty in all of God's Revelations , such is the quandary of faith and choices.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Good you noticed this. Most of mankind equates mursal, with Rasool or Nabi. Mursal means sent, and so it means those sent by God.

However, mursaleen are exalted chosen souls. The disciples were selected in this world, but not pre-world. Mursaleen refers to those selected in pre-world and who are guaranteed safety in both worlds. They are sent with God's knowledge that they won't deviate and he knows their path will be straight.

Disciples are severely warned not to disbelieve and that if anyone does, because of the signs levels they been shown, he will punish them with a punishment he won't punish anyone else.

Disciples are not Mursaleen. They are volatile, albeit, they are highly pious, but they gained their Isma in this world for responding to Isa (a) in the way they did.

God choose them in this world, which is not the same as the chosen pre-world. The chosen souls pre-world, God sends them as a mercy to guide people, not that they are need of trial themselves.

Mursal applies to Imams (a) and is more comprehensive, and Surah Dukhan showns that God has always been sending in the past, is now, and will continue to send in the future, so there is always a mursal on earth.

Interestingly the Bab said that the moment of His Revelation from God was dependent upon the acceptance of the first beleiver, who became the Gate of the Gate. 18 in total had to accept the Bab before the Gate was fully opened.

“O thou who art the first to believe in Me! Verily I say, I am the Báb, the Gate of God…Eighteen souls must, in the beginning, spontaneously and of their own accord, accept Me and recognize the truth of My Revelation.” Bab

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

I see the beauty in all of God's Revelations , such is the quandary of faith and choices.

Regards Tony

I think speech of a truthful person is higher then a speech of a liar, let alone exalted souls over liars, let alone God over liars. To me, Bahai text doesn't even sound from a truthful person. It's horrible in terms of eloquence. There is again no comparison with the Quran which flows with an overwhelming truthful tone.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think speech of a truthful person is higher then a speech of a liar, let alone exalted souls over liars, let alone God over liars. To me, Bahai text doesn't even sound from a truthful person. It's horrible in terms of eloquence. There is again no comparison with the Quran which flows with an overwhelming truthful tone.

Dangerous words Link. These are very false imputations.

Regards Tony

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The Quran I can tell is words of God. When I read Bahai texts, it feels like a fabrication (to attribute to God) and less eloquent than most speech.

So exactly how much eloquence is needed to know the difference between a messenger and an imposter?

To me, Bahai text doesn't even sound from a truthful person. It's horrible in terms of eloquence.

Can you show me a verse from Baha'u'llah and point out the horribleness of the eloquence?

 

[Link]

So exactly how much eloquence is needed to know the difference between a messenger and an imposter?



Can you show me a verse from Baha'u'llah and point out the horribleness of the eloquence?

Well per Quran, God doesn't replace a sign except he brings something like it or better. Since Bahai revelations are not on par with Quran nor like it nor better, we can dismiss it on those grounds per Quran.

 

[Link]

Can you show me a verse from Baha'u'llah and point out the horribleness of the eloquence?

Yes I can. But we have to establish some rules of what eloquence is. And so before that it would be pointless.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes I can. But we have to establish some rules of what eloquence is. And so before that it would be pointless.

Link, that is just a relative standard, the rules of eloquence as desired by Link. The reason the Bab and Baha'u'llah were persecuted was because that many learned muslim divines, that were not attracted by worldly desires, had embraced the eloquence and amazing spiritual insight in the Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

The Messengers set the standard of eloquence, it is always used against them and used to embrace them.

Your rules will not change the minds that have found the eloquence given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah, its best that you let it all go and continue to practice Islam and do not worry about Baha'i, it will be embraced by those who so choose to, when they are allowed to.

When all the countries that Baha'i live in grant them the unrestricted freedom to practice being a Baha'i, then those countries will also have many that will choose to embrace the eloquence, no longer afraid of the persecution they will face if they do.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

The Messengers set the standard of eloquence, it is always used against them and used to embrace them.

It would be circular reasoning if that's the case.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It would be circular reasoning if that's the case.

That is Faith Link, it is circular, they are born and they die and the circle continues. All that put a finality on the Messengers, are not able to get into the cycle.

Thus the Jews, the Christians, the Muslims, the Zoroastrians, the Buddhist, those of Krishna that have all said they are the final.Message before the great and dreadful day of the Lord, are all unable to get into the cycle.

The Messenger is the standard for all humanity in the age they are given by Allah.

We can choose to accept or choose to reject.

Regards Tony

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Yes I can. But we have to establish some rules of what eloquence is. And so before that it would be pointless.

Straight to the point.

Show me a verse so I can look at what you are talking about. Then explain your reason to dismiss it. That way I will be able to work out what your idea of eloquence is.

 

[Link]

Straight to the point.

Show me a verse so I can look at what you are talking about. Then explain your reason to dismiss it. That way I will be able to work out what your idea of eloquence is.

Likewise, from this statement it is made evident that the term "last" is applicable to the "first," and the term "first" applicable to the "last;" inasmuch as both the "first" and the "last" have risen to proclaim one and the same Faith.
Notwithstanding the obviousness of this theme, in the eyes of those that have quaffed the wine of
knowledge and certitude, yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term "Seal of the Prophets" to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muhhammad, Himself, declared: "I am all the Prophets?" Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: "I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?" Why should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: "I am the first Adam" be incapable of saying also: "I am the last Adam"? For even as He regarded Himself to be the "First of the Prophets" — that is Adam — in like manner, the "Seal of the Prophets" is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the "First of the Prophets," He likewise is their "Seal."
The mystery of this theme hath, in this Dispensation, been a sore test unto all mankind. Behold, how many are those who, clinging unto these words, have disbelieved Him Who is their true Revealer. What, We ask, could this people presume the terms "first" and "last" — when referring to God — glorified be His Name! — to mean? If they maintain that these terms bear reference to
this material universe, how could it be possible, when the visible order of things is still manifestly existing? Nay, in this instance, by "first" is meant no other than the "last" and by "last" no other than the "first."



I would say too many words for a simple concept. It could've just been stated:

"O people, the meaning of Seal is not as you think, but it means Mohammad is the last in the same way he is the first and is all Prophets. Clarification has been given so fear God and do not reject a Prophet out of interpretation you assume to be correct. Indeed similar speech exists in words attributed to the leaders of guidance stating they are the first Adam and similar expressions."

When you saying the same thing repeatedly over and over again and make a long way to say the same thing which can be said shorter and better way, it's very bad in terms of eloquence.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

When you saying the same thing repeatedly over and over again and make a long way to say the same thing which can be said shorter and better way, it's very bad in terms of eloquence.

So do you think straight to the point is eloquent?
I think the point can get lost in too much flowery language to enhance it. But perhaps looking closely the flowery language has no point at all.

the wine of knowledge and certitude

Baha'u'llah talks as if he is explaining a word that is used in the Bible and the Quran, but is he actually saying anything about wine?
Talking around answers can appear just like answers when they are made open to interpretation.

I agree with you Link. It doesn't have the eloquence of being straight to the point.

So besides Baha'u'llah not speaking in a shorter way. What else determines the dismissal of an imposter messenger?