• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Metaphysical-Physicalism.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
All we really need to know is that we have desires and preferences, we make decisions, and we experience sensory perceptions of outcomes. Exactly what underlies all of this is secondary. Whatever we think is true about what underlies the world we perceive, it is only a model for understanding what goes on in here. That is, the subjective is the realm we are inextricably immersed in and the one that matters most. The world we conceive of existing outside our minds and being the object of our subjective apprehensions - objective reality as we conceive of it - is of secondary importance There's a pervasive view that that world out there is more real than this one in here, and in here is only a faint projection of that, and thus secondary to it, derivative.

What Popper pointed out is that the "subjective" world of man, impregnates the so-called, and alleged, objective world, and thereby, through subjective desires, beliefs, motives and actions, helps to create the so-called, and believed, external world.

Quantum physics tried to help the layman understand that there is no outside, external world. As I quoted Professor Lewontin saying, we create our world out of bits and pieces of external reality. It's that world created by us, that we inhabit, and not some external reality that exist without us.

To describe what has happened, one has to cross out that old word `observer’ and put in its place the new word `participator.’ In some strange sense the universe is a participatory universe.

John Wheeler.​

Wheeler also asked what quantum physics tells us about the world that Bishop of the Church, Berkeley, didn't tell three hundred years ago.

Christians and Jews have been told that this is a participatory world, that their thoughts and actions feedback into the world in a real way, since the days of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And all the great originators of the modern, scientific, world, were theistic believers.

In his latter days, this all began to come home to Popper. And it was a bitter pill to swallow, since the Christianizing Wittgenstein had been trying to get him to swallow that from the start of their relationship. A joint acquaintance, Bertrand Russell, said he tired of Wittgenstein telling him that he'd do better to convert to Christianity since, in Wittgenstein's mind, Russell's grasp of philosophy was something like a vomitive.

But this attitude misses the fact that it doesn't really matter how accurate our understanding of what is out there is if the model we are using allows us to effectively navigate the experience of consciousness over time in a way that facilitates desirable outcomes and avoids undesirable ones. That is, if you one day discovered that your model of reality was an illusion - perhaps we are brains in vats, or Descartes' demon is manipulating out experience to appear that there is something else besides that demon outside of mind, nothing changes.

It's not until a person realizes he has power over not only his own subjective reality, not only over the so-called real world external to him, but over the worlds of the future forever and ever world without end, that he has the motivation to work his brain to the fever point to do his part in elevating the world to where it's going to get to with our without his participation.

The Bible is clear that notwithstanding the power of the human mind, even it can't perceive even a mustard seed sized slice of what God has prepared for those who love him, and show they do by doing their part in the erection of his glorious kingdom.

Not that he needs them, me, you, or anyone. It's merely a phenomenon of his grace, power, and mercy, that he allows creatures of flesh, living in soil pottery, to take part in something no mind today has an inkling concerning it's unfathomable greatness.


John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Furthermore, you still never give a reason why think whatever you mean ought to be of interest to you or others. Let's say that was comprehensible, coherent, and accurate. So what? Why do you think it matters? How can your idea be used to generate anything of value, to understand life better, and live it better?

As I noted to F1fan, this whole thread was an offshoot of a thread where, using what I'm trying to argue here, I hypothesized a metaphysical truism from a future understanding of reality, that I whole-heartedly believe will in the near future be accepted as scientific-orthodoxy, since it's based on understanding the true relationship between metaphysics and scientific orthodoxy.

In the thread where I hypothesized that the evolution of gender should be understood as a speciation-event (men and women are actually different species), I was met with incredulity for the understandable reason that in the current orthodoxy men and women are understood to be the same species, and for sound, reasons, within the reigning orthodoxy.

But since I know that the reigning orthodoxy is a watered-down understanding of a science whose genesis is from the Bible, I'm able, legitimately, to combine scriptural nuances and scientific orthodoxy to hypothesize a missing link getting us from here (where we all senescence and die) to there (where immortality is returned to the living cells).

It's the science of the end of senescence that will require understanding that men and women are in fact, in a scientific sense, different species, and not of the same species per the reigning orthodoxy.

I was, and am, far more interested in proving that men and women are in fact, through science, and a better understanding of evolution, truly different species, than I am about arguing things I argued into oblivion in the book Tautological Oxymorons twenty-years ago. And yet, before anyone will give an ear to the theory that men and women are different species, which is of stupendously great value as scientific information (it will lead to the elimination of senescence) someone needs to at least understand that scientific orthodoxy isn't the real world, or the real science, but merely a way-station to the kingdom of God. Knowing that, and thus that the theory that men and women are not just from Venus and Mars, but are different species, will lead to the next great leap in science: the end of senescence, and the long-awaited (at least by Jews and Christians) return of human immortality.

In the more important of the two threads, I'm merely practicing what I'm preaching in this thread. And the practice is practical, and it works, which is why it's important to get back to it whether anyone here can, or will, follow it or not.




John
 
Last edited:

Magical Wand

Active Member
...any conclusion must be based on the initial assumption of methodological naturalism....

No. Methodological naturalism isn't an axiom; it is not assumed. As counter-apologist Richard Carrier said (before explaining in details the reasons): "The entire notion of a “presumption of naturalism” being axiomatic to history and the sciences is both an error made by some historians and scientists and an apologetic bluff by Christian apologists."

See, Naturalism Is Not an Axiom.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Do you have any justification for the claim that when we think we’re using inductive reasoning, we’re actually using something divinely given rather than “natural?”

Sorry. I missed this message. I was trying address them as they came. For what it's worth, I've tried to answer your question in various ways in response to those asking similar questions.



John
 
Last edited:

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Seems to me that first you need to provide some verifiable evidence that this proposed divine spirit god actually exists. Until you can I'll stick with the natural explanation.

In a sense similar to saying it surely wasn't a fish who first discovered water, we could say that it's impossible to prove something that's self-evident, to someone for whom its nevertheless not evident.

It is therefore plain, that nothing can be more evident to any one that is capable of the least reflexion, than the existence of God, or a spirit who is intimately present to our minds, producing in them all that variety or ideas or sensations, which continually affect us, on whom we have an absolute and entire dependence, in short, `in whom we live, and move, and have our being’ [Acts 17:28]. That the discovery of this great truth which lies so near and obvious to the mind, should be attained to by the reason of so very few, is a sad instance of the stupidity and inattention of men who, though they are surrounded with such clear manifestations of the Deity, are yet so little affected by them, that they seem as it were blinded with excess of light.

Bishop Berkeley, A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, Principle # 149.


John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Do you have evidence that metaphysical naturalism is false? How does it look like? Does it look like evidence that a spiritual world with a God in it exists, or are you going to be more specific? Are you showing us, not only that such a God exists, but that He sort of died for our sins, walked on water, turned water into wine, and all that?

And if you fail to provide convincing evidence of the latter, why are you a Christian, and not simply an unspecified theist?

Ciao

Technically speaking "metaphysical-naturalism" is a fatal oxymoron since metaphysical implies beyond the physical, and naturalism kinda means there's no metaphysical reality that transcends the material world. So I was playing on that contradiction in speaking of "metaphysical-physicalism."

For me, sentience is spiritual. It's too different from materialism to be part of the material world. And I've quoted some allegedly very smart agnostics and materialists who are coming to admit that the human mind is starting to take off its material trappings and show its true colors and its true origin as other than the physical world.

Since the beginning of time, man has had access to spiritual realities that transcend material realities, and the supposed orthodoxy concerning reality at any given time. These spiritual realities were accessed by prophets and mystics who could only reveal them in metaphorical and mythological language. But as time passed, some of the myth became understandable as scientific orthodoxy. Say for instance the myth that the sun is the central figure of the pantheon which led, eventually to heliocentrism.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is mythology on steroids. The myths of Christ haven't even been scratched yet. All the treasures of knowledge for all time, past, present, and future, are hidden in Christ (and his Gospel) awaiting their scientific revelation. I know and believe that to be true more than I can say I know anything I've ever proclaimed here or anywhere else. I know it on a level beyond the need to test it, or prove it to anyone else. Faith in Christ comes from a place far deeper, far more fundamental, than anything related to empiricism, rationalism, logic or anything else. The later offer themselves up as avenues revealing reality. But they lead to dead ends every time and every one of them.



John
 
Last edited:

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
In a sense similar to saying it surely wasn't a fish who first discovered water, we could say that it's impossible to prove something that's self-evident, to someone for whom its nevertheless not evident.

It is therefore plain, that nothing can be more evident to any one that is capable of the least reflexion, than the existence of God, or a spirit who is intimately present to our minds, producing in them all that variety or ideas or sensations, which continually affect us, on whom we have an absolute and entire dependence, in short, `in whom we live, and move, and have our being’ [Acts 17:28]. That the discovery of this great truth which lies so near and obvious to the mind, should be attained to by the reason of so very few, is a sad instance of the stupidity and inattention of men who, though they are surrounded with such clear manifestations of the Deity, are yet so little affected by them, that they seem as it were blinded with excess of light.

Bishop Berkeley, A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, Principle # 149.


John

All you did was make another unconfirmed claim. Clearly you don't have any verifiable evidence for this god/spirit. You can say that it's impossible to prove something that's self-evident, but you'd be absolutely wrong. Gravity is self-evident and I can prove it. If your god/spirit was self-evident as well then you too would be able to offer some verifiable evidence. Since you can't, it obviously isn't.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
What a timely and perceptive statement since this thread began when in the thread on Genesis 2:21 as a Speciation-Event, I realized that there was no way to get from where your contextual understanding of how science and the mind works, to what I was trying to say about gender as a speciation event.
So does this this mean your intention is taking on science and how we understand how the mind works so that your belief in Genesis as a speciation event? So it's John D. Bray against science (and those who accept science as a functional method)?

In that thread, everyone was using the fallacy of induction to assume that my hypothesis that the evolution of gender was typical of a speciation-event is just plain silly, since neither the current scientific landscape, nor the thinking of current scientists, would lend much weight to the evolution of gender as a speciation-event.
Incorrect. As noted to you (and you refuse to even acknowledge this) you had no proper hypothesis since all hypothesis need to be based on facts. Your interpretation of Genesis isn't a hypothesis, it's just a bad interpretation of an ancient story. And using induction isn't a fallacy. You keep repeating this error, I'm not sure why.

Nevertheless, just as Popper states in TLSD, it takes bold unfounded conjectures to move thought and understanding forward; not merely the brick-by-brick, inductive inference generated, activity that is how most people think.
Right, that's why our modern knowledge is a natural, unguided process called evolution and not special creation by a God, which isn't known to exist outside of human imagination.

My theory that gender is a speciation-even isn't just a wild-eyed metaphysical speculation. It comes from using both what we already know, and the ability to grasp hypotheses, that are not yet known, to try to solve an important problem that would eliminate a log-jammed of wrong-headed thinking to move mankind's knowledge far forward toward the golden age known in the Bible as the kingdom of God, where there's no more death, no more want, no more tears.
It's one of the worst ideas i've ever seen a theist propose as an interpretation of Genesis. Not only do you confuse gender with speciation, there's nothing in the text that suggests what you claim. Your only defense of the idea is to be critical of how minds work, and you miss the irony of you making a bad interpretation. You want it both ways.

That place is a real future place that mankind will arrive at, probably sooner than anyone suspects. And what few suspect is that that world is perceivable through the metaphysics of the mind, so that certain minds are able to grasp elements of the knowledge known far future, or at least somewhere in the future, and force-fit it into the wine-skin of the current knowledge of the world.
Are you infallible, a God? Or are you just guessing? I'm not convinced.

Just this morning, while responding to dialogue in this thread, a voice inside said to abandon this and get back to the real science associated with retrofitting the evolution of gender into the framework of a speciation-event, since that is real science work, while this thread is almost surely mostly a waste of all of our time.
Maybe it's your conscience. You're not answering peoples' questions, and you often repeat dubious statements despite them being questioned or shown invalid, so that likely your fault. You're well read but your thinking is seriously flawed. The whole point of a discussion among intelligent people is to see the flaws in our own thinking to arrive at a more precise understanding of how things are.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
For me, sentience is spiritual.
That is your religious bias intruding on your comments here. You should be self-aware of enough of your religious bias to avoid it being an intellectual roadblock. Your assumptions mean nothing to anyone else, and don't don't seem to respect anyone else when you ignore this. Science and reason are effective BECAUSE an individual can recognize size their own beliefs and set them aside. You seem to be eager to pile them on.

It's too different from materialism to be part of the material world.
That what clever people when they want to have a safe place for their unverifiable beliefs. It's fine in church, it's no good to use in an argument because if it's so incomprehensible to the mere mortal how does the flawed "dirty rag" sinner know any of it is true? They don't. But they learn to bluff, and fool themselves along the way.

And I've quoted some allegedly very smart agnostics and materialists who are coming to admit that the human mind is starting to take off its material trappings and show its true colors and its true origin as other than the physical world.
You probably selected them because they are wrong. Try cognitive psychologists and see what they say.

Since the beginning of time, man has had access to spiritual realities that transcend material realities, and the supposed orthodoxy concerning reality at any given time. These spiritual realities were accessed by prophets and mystics who could only reveal them in metaphorical and mythological language. But as time passed, some of the myth became understandable as scientific orthodoxy. Say for instance the myth that the sun is the central figure of the pantheon which led, eventually to heliocentrism.
In other words humans have had religion. Thank God science came along, as it's more reliable and shows its work.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is mythology on steroids. The myths of Christ haven't even been scratched yet. All the treasures of knowledge for all time, past, present, and future, are hidden in Christ (and his Gospel) awaiting their scientific revelation. I know and believe that to be true more than I can say I know anything I've ever proclaimed here or anywhere else. I know it on a level beyond the need to test it, or prove it to anyone else. Faith in Christ comes from a place far deeper, far more fundamental, than anything related to empiricism, rationalism, logic or anything else. The later offer themselves up as avenues revealing reality. But they lead to dead ends every time and every one of them.
None of this has any basis in reality. How is it relevant?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
So does this this mean your intention is taking on science and how we understand how the mind works so that your belief in Genesis as a speciation event? So it's John D. Bray against science (and those who accept science as a functional method)?

Karl Popper was a great historian and philosopher of the scientific-method, as well as having close relationships with many great scientist, to include Einstein and John Wheeler. And with that said, I'd say there's very little doubt that his idea of what science is, is closer to mine than yours.

That doesn't make he and I right. But you speak as though your understanding of science, because it's the generally accepted one, is just the simple truth of what science is. I think Popper would beg to differ. . . I do.

Incorrect. As noted to you (and you refuse to even acknowledge this) you had no proper hypothesis since all hypothesis need to be based on facts. Your interpretation of Genesis isn't a hypothesis, it's just a bad interpretation of an ancient story. And using induction isn't a fallacy. You keep repeating this error, I'm not sure why.

For you the book of Genesis might be just an ancient story, but for millions upon millions of persons living around the globe, it has more credibility than most of the purveyors of modern science.

I've quoted Karl Popper, and Albert Einstein saying that induction doesn't work, that no real science comes from induction, and yet you keep privileging your personal view over me, Popper, and Einstein? Now you claim, dogmatically, that even though Popper and Einstein are on my side, we're all just caught up in a conspiratorial error.

Right, that's why our modern knowledge is a natural, unguided process called evolution and not special creation by a God, which isn't known to exist outside of human imagination.

You're entitled to your beliefs. And I'm arguing mine as best I can. So I hope you've not decided to fall back on nothing but dogmatic statements of your correctness and my erroneous-ness.

It's one of the worst ideas i've ever seen a theist propose as an interpretation of Genesis. Not only do you confuse gender with speciation, there's nothing in the text that suggests what you claim. Your only defense of the idea is to be critical of how minds work, and you miss the irony of you making a bad interpretation. You want it both ways.

I don't see that as a fair presentation at all.

First of all, Genesis really does imply that the first humans were immortal. It's a fact that the Bible implies that, whether or not you consider the Bible's implication accurate or not (it's still factual that the Bible makes that claim). It's likewise factual that the Bible implies the first humans were immortal until they broke a cardinal rule that I claim is the commandment that unlike species not breed (shatnez). And Genesis really does imply that Adam and Eve having sex is the original sin. And I even quoted an agnostic scientist saying that sex does appear to be something like the original sin against the immortality of the pre-sex organisms.

Death, the literal dis-integration of the husk of the body, was the grim price exacted by meiotic sexuality. Complex development in protoctists and their animal and plant descendants led to the evolution of death as a kind of sexually transmitted disease.

Lynn Margulis, Symbiotic Planet, p. 90.​

Maybe it's your conscience. You're not answering peoples' questions, and you often repeat dubious statements despite them being questioned or shown invalid, so that likely your fault. You're well read but your thinking is seriously flawed. The whole point of a discussion among intelligent people is to see the flaws in our own thinking to arrive at a more precise understanding of how things are.

Some people seem to confuse their worldview with factuality. If they believe something, it's a fact, and if they don't, it's not factual. But facts don't work that way.

I can show that it's factual that within orthodox Judeo/Christian tradition, sex is associated with the loss of immortality: that the first instance of sex led to the first case of death. The fact that its factual that the Bible claims that, doesn't necessarily mean it's factual that sex and death are related. So I've quoted two world renown scientists, one with a Phd in biology, saying that it appears sex and death are related.

So you see, I'm not really just spouting my personal opinions and dogmatically claiming they're the facts. I'm developing a factual thesis (constructed of facts) that you are rejecting because it conflicts with your worldview, which of late you seem to equate with factuality and base reality: if you believe it, it's factual, and if you don't it's not.



John
 
Last edited:

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
For me, sentience is spiritual.​

That is your religious bias intruding on your comments here.

In context, "spiritual" means outside the laws of physics and the existence of the material world. And in fairness, it's your bias to assume my "belief" is just a bias, while your belief (that there's nothing outside of physics and the physical world) is just plain the truth of the matter.

You should be self-aware of enough of your religious bias to avoid it being an intellectual roadblock.

Again, you should be self-aware enough to understand that lack of faith in God, or spirituality, is just as much a bias as fullness of faith in God, or spirituality. You're using your personal bias as though its the truth, while my personal bias is just religiosity. Lack of faith in God is just as much based on a person's epistemological biases as is faith in God.

By presenting yourself as you are, i.e., as though my belief system is out on a limb, while yours is grounded in the truth, your doing the complete antithesis of what you're telling me I should be doing by setting aside my personal predilections. In other words, you seem to be involved in a childish version of what you're telling me not to do: you have the truth, while I have silly speculation.

We see this in your last message where you treat the Bible as though only a certain kind of person takes it seriously, even though millions upon millions of persons, many of them the most educated geniuses in the world, take the Bible as seriously as a heart attack. But because you don't, and those you take seriously don't, you disavow the intellect and seriousness of those who do.

For what it's worth, most historians of philosophy would rate Wittgenstein above Popper, and Wittgenstein took the Bible as seriously as I, and millions of other's do.

None of this has any basis in reality. How is it relevant?

Your statement seems perfectly relevant to the accusation that you confuse your personal worldview with reality. The Gospels are accepted as reality by more people in the Western world than not. And yet you feel comfortable insinuating that because you don't believe it, it's therefore not reality, or relevant.



John
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
No. Methodological naturalism isn't an axiom; it is not assumed. As counter-apologist Richard Carrier said (before explaining in details the reasons): "The entire notion of a “presumption of naturalism” being axiomatic to history and the sciences is both an error made by some historians and scientists and an apologetic bluff by Christian apologists."

See, Naturalism Is Not an Axiom.

How is methodological naturalism an apologetic bluff? Why is it a lie?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No. Methodological naturalism isn't an axiom; it is not assumed. As counter-apologist Richard Carrier said (before explaining in details the reasons): "The entire notion of a “presumption of naturalism” being axiomatic to history and the sciences is both an error made by some historians and scientists and an apologetic bluff by Christian apologists."

See, Naturalism Is Not an Axiom.

For the sciences there can be the idea that the universe is run but a set of physical laws that are reliable and that they can be discovered. That I am told is what came from the Judeo Christian view of the universe and a God who worked with consistent laws and this is why the West advanced in science before the East. This happened of course after the religious powerful and intolerant got out of the way to allow the advance in science.
Then is a round about way, with the advances in science many started saying that the religious beliefs which led to them must be untrue.
But anyway no matter how hard science looked with it's set of tools it could not find god/s and so people like Richard Carrie ended up thinking that the naturalistic view is the conclusion of science instead of just a tool to enable continued scientific research without bringing in the concept of a miracle.
But naturalism is not something that science has concluded. Science cannot say one way or the other about the existence of a God/s. Science does not take sides in which if any religion is correct and indeed cannot with the tools it has to look at investigate only this universe.
Methodological naturalism, as a conclusion can be changed,,,,,,,,,,,,,but because of people and power structures etc are at play not too many scientists are willing to say, it was a miracle, as an answer to any problem.
Methodological naturalism has thus turned into an axiom and nobody in science can speak against it without being put on the outer.
Any science which has a God as an assumption behind it is seen as a pseudo science while history has been turned upside down and now someone actually wants to say that naturalism is a conclusion of science.
Certainly in the modern study of the Bible, methodological naturalism is assumed and turns into philosophical naturalism by those who assume that the miracles and prophecies are not true and so use the assumption to date the books of the Bible.
In science also there will never be a backing down from the naturalistic assumption and that can and has imo lead to wrong conclusions about things that are said to have happened in the past.
Science has no way of knowing if it's teaching about the past is always true but it is taught as fact and ends up being a naturalistic indoctrination of our kids, while science is seen as the only way to find things out.
That idea is seen in some atheists who want to view science as that and say they are leaving faith behind when in fact it takes faith to accept what science says much of the time, and even if people say that science is always going to be tentative in it's answers the conclusions always have to be naturalistic because that is what science is and science cannot conclude about whether naturalism is true or not as a philosophy.
Anti God activists like Richard Carrie would want to twist what science is and what it can reasonably study. He no doubt has faith that the only way to knowledge is through the use of science.
Sorry I got carried away.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
This is incorrect, and a common mistake. We are told that we only have faith in the principles underlying science by people who use that word to mean unjustified belief. Often, it is coming from a theist trying to put science and theology on an equal footing by arguing that scientists are also acting on faith.

But that is obviously wrong. The fruits of science tell us that our assumptions are valid in the sense that acting as if they were valid - that nothing should be believed just because it is said or hoped, that the world is comprehensible and understood by examining it and deriving those dreaded inductions (laws of science) by applying reason to the evidence to generate useful generalization. How do these people miss the evidence supporting those assumptions such that they see it as faith - blind belief? The success of science is the evidence that the method and its assumptions are valid. Did the New Horizons probe make it to Pluto? Was Pluto where it was predicted to be when it was predicted to be there? Did the craft launch and its guidance systems get it to that same place at the same time? Did it's sensors and transmitters give us the data we went there for? Yes to all of these. The sine qua non of a correct idea id that it can accurately predict outcomes.

By this same reckoning, we know that the underlying principles of astrology are false. It has the opposite track record, the sine qua non of a wrong idea. No useful ideas come from those assumptions. They have no predictive or explanatory power. They are wrong. To equate faith in astrology (or religion) with the justified confidence we have in astronomy and the other sciences that made a successful mission possible is just incorrect.

And isn't that what the author you cite is doing here - essentially saying that science is based on a foundation of sand like astrology? No. That's astrology. And alchemy. And creationism. The assumptions of science are confirmed by its stunning successes, just as the assumptions of these faith-based systems are disconfirmed by their sterility.

Isn't that how we dispatched the intelligent design people? Their underlying assumption that because a god created man and the universe, there would be evidence of irreducible complexity in some biological systems that could only be explained by intelligence and intent. And had they found that, their assumptions would be validated. Their repeated failure to do so, and worse, to repeatedly offer examples of irreducible complexity that were not that, suggest that their assumptions were incorrect.

At the moment there is irreducible complexity in nature but the faith is that one day we will know. The faith is in the method.
At the moment we have no idea about life and what it is and where it came from and the faith is that we will one day know.
At the moment we know nothing about where the universe came from and the faith is that we will one day know.
Why do people put faith in the methods of science and in speculation?
Is what science has succeeded in finding out an excuse for putting faith in speculations?
"""Argument from ignorance, also known as appeal to ignorance, is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true."""
Heaven forbid that anyone should return to the God of the Gaps idea unless it is in an area that God may actually have said that He did.
Why do the same people who reject the God of the Gaps idea do a similar thing with the things that we don't know and say that it IS natural and one day we will know?
There is no real reason to say that except a faith that there is no supernatural.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
At the moment there is irreducible complexity in nature

To the best our knowledge, that is untrue. If irreducible complexity is ever discovered in any biological system, it will be irrefutable evidence of an intelligent designer, although this need not be a god, just a powerful intelligence. But whether that intelligence is of natural or supernatural origin, the implication would be that something exists in some biological system that could not have been assembled by undirected biological evolution.

We have no news of any such discovery, although several biological systems have been offered as irreducibly complex, but in case, shown not to be. These include the eye, the bacterial flagellum, the immune system, and the clotting cascade. In each case, it was suggested that such an arrangement couldn't have assembled itself piecemeal, since the system doesn't work if missing any part, and the intermediary forms wouldn't be selected for by natural selection, since they had no function and therefore conferred no survival advantage. In every case, the claim was debunked.

At the moment we have no idea about life and what it is and where it came from

Science does. I do. The ideas aren't fully formulated yet, but we are far from no idea.

Creationists are often unaware of what is known. They don't study the science, and they wear a faith-based confirmation bias that won't allow them to see contradictory evidence. One creationist on RF has been telling us for years that there is no evidence for evolution, just speculations and assumptions. All that means to the educated is that she doesn't know what they do. You're leaning that way yourself - making claims that what you know is all that is known.

Science cannot rule out supernaturalistic claims for the origin of the universe and the life in it, but it need not. It's job is to continue investigating reality and describe what is there, not rule out what others claim might be there. If they ever find evidence better explained by imputing an intelligent designer such as irreducible complexity, then they will have cause to consider such a possibility.

But for now, no known barriers to a completely naturalistic explanation are known, and those that have ruled such a possibility off of their list of candidate hypotheses for nature have committed a non sequitur fallacy by so doing. There is no rational way to exclude the possibility that no god exists or is needed to account for reality. There is no observation, argument, experiment or algorithm that rule out either a naturalistic or a supernaturalistic account. They're both on the table until such time as one or the other can be ruled in or out.

So, science goes on investigating nature. In the case of the origin of life, progress is made every year demonstrating how the elements of life could have assemble themselves without intelligent oversight.

At the moment we know nothing about where the universe came from

Also untrue. We know quite a bit about how the universe evolved and assembled itself, and none of what we have discovered required an intelligent builder.

Why do people put faith in the methods of science

If by faith you mean belief insufficiently supported and often contradicted by evidence such as belief in a flat earth, creationism, the pandemic as hoax, the American election as stolen, etc., then no, faith is not required to justify trust in the methods of science. One can use his eyes. The proof is in the pudding. No more is needed to know to confirm to you that the science and engineering that underlay the manned Apollo moon missions was correct than that several human beings were taken to the moon and back successfully. We make the same judgement with a car or appliance manufacturer. If their product lasts longer or otherwise performs better than the competition, we understand that their methods for designing cars are valid. If a particular physician gets consistently better results than his peers, that is evidence that he processes information better. One needn't know how he does it, just that he gets results, and that therefore his methods are valid.

We expect the methods of science to continue generating ideas that can be used to predict nature as it has in the past. We also expect that none of these ideas will contain a god, as the history of science has been to show that a god is not needed in any scientific theory to give it more explanatory or predictive power. You could add angels pushing electrons around to the science of electronics, or a god to the theory of evolution, but neither idea adds anything of value to the science, and so there is no reason to do that. Theists often frame that as an anti-God prejudice, but it's actually a manifestation of the tried and true principle of parsimony in scientific modeling, which insists that no more complexity be added to an explanation than is needed to account for observations.

An interesting phenomenon of creationist apologetics is the failure of the apologist to recognize that his arguments only work on other faith-based thinkers, such as those reading creationist websites. He never seems to notice that when he brings these same arguments to those well trained in the sciences and in critical thinking, that they in every case tell him that his argument is incomplete and/or fallacious, or if he does, attributes it to intellectual dishonesty on the part of his critics rather than that his arguments just don't cut it with the knowledgeable.

The fact is that apologetics is for faith-based thinkers, and really should only be shared with them. It's purpose is to counter the advantage science has by being empirical and rational by attempting to convince scientifically unsophisticated religious readers and listeners that their beliefs are just as rational and supported by reason and evidence.

We'll see things such as nobody has ever witnessed a dog give birth to a cat, or science has proved that life can only come from other life. Here, they're seemingly appealing to empiricism like a scientist would, but using specious arguments that are easily debunked by others not found frequenting creationist sites or Sunday schools, such as a creationist is apt to find here on RF.

Here, those arguments are counterproductive to the apologist. Here, his errors are cited. It seems to me that there is zero hope of advancing the creationist agenda in a mixed venue like this one. The creationists routinely are show their errors and dismissed as unqualified to discuss the science.

Or maybe the creationist knows this and doesn't care. Perhaps he sees himself as a martyr in the lions' den doing what he thinks he is commanded to do by his God even in the face of adversity and rejection, which are described as a virtue. It's a common theme in evangelism.

Is what science has succeeded in finding out an excuse for putting faith in speculations?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Karl Popper was a great historian and philosopher of the scientific-method, as well as having close relationships with many great scientist, to include Einstein and John Wheeler. And with that said, I'd say there's very little doubt that his idea of what science is, is closer to mine than yours.

That doesn't make he and I right. But you speak as though your understanding of science, because it's the generally accepted one, is just the simple truth of what science is. I think Popper would beg to differ. . . I do.
Since Popper isn't here to agree or disagree with you, and engage with us directly, it would be polite to not represent him in case you are interpreting him all wrong. As others have pointed out you have misrepresented numerous texts by Popper. So I suggest you take full responsibility for what you interpret, type, and post.

I'm still not sure where your confidence comes from since science has marched on with considerable success. The metaphor I imagine is you're a 10 year old with a sling shot standing on railroad tracks thinking you are going to stop the freight train coming at 60 mph. Wisdom and humility would inform you to get off the tracks. You remain defiant. You do this by ignoring the train is coming (ignoring questions posed to you by others) and thinking the sling shot is an incredible weapon (your beliefs, many religious in nature) against the train (reason and science).

For you the book of Genesis might be just an ancient story, but for millions upon millions of persons living around the globe, it has more credibility than most of the purveyors of modern science.
OK, if you open the door to the fallacy of popularity let's use it against your absurd interpretation of the Creation myth. You are likely the only one of multiple tens of millions of creationists who interpret it that way, so you're wrong based on popularity. Many of these folks assign meaning to the Old Testament that the Jews don't assign, so are the Jews wrong about their own book? And other theists assign meaning to the Quran. Or the Vedas. Or the Mormon Bible. Or the Urantia Book. These theists all value their personal meaning in their cultural beliefs, but i'll bet most all of them rely on the benefits of science and reason to live a better life, and take all that for granted. Do we ever see people go pray in honor to the Greeks who invented plumbing? No, they'd rather prey to a God that created a world that includes diseases that will kill innocent people. And guess what helps save these people against the creation God provided? Scientists.

I've quoted Karl Popper, and Albert Einstein saying that induction doesn't work, that no real science comes from induction, and yet you keep privileging your personal view over me, Popper, and Einstein? Now you claim, dogmatically, that even though Popper and Einstein are on my side, we're all just caught up in a conspiratorial error.
It's kind of like you living in New York and needing to get to Los Angeles the next day to discuss how flight doesn't work, and you board a Boeing 777 to get there. You're asking us to ignore that induction works. And your reason is how you cherry pick a few sentences from renown thinkers that doesn't;t quite reflect their views. You need to argue you own thinking here. It's your claim. You need to be able to articulate it yourself. You don't seem confident enough in yourself or your thinking. You're using Popper and Einstein for window dressing.



You're entitled to your beliefs. And I'm arguing mine as best I can. So I hope you've not decided to fall back on nothing but dogmatic statements of your correctness and my erroneous-ness.
I rely on what works. It's not dogma to observe science working. Philosophy is dogma as it's often subject to error. It's dogma to assume a God exists, and that an ancient religious book has some profound meaning that does not appear in any of the writing. You're projecting your own faults on others, and don't seem aware of this. No one comes to a conclusion that a God exists via facts and reasoning, there are other motivations that the believer is not aware of unless they study the psychology pf belief.


First of all, Genesis really does imply that the first humans were immortal. It's a fact that the Bible implies that, whether or not you consider the Bible's implication accurate or not (it's still factual that the Bible makes that claim). It's likewise factual that the Bible implies the first humans were immortal until they broke a cardinal rule that I claim is the commandment that unlike species not breed (shatnez). And Genesis really does imply that Adam and Eve having sex is the original sin. And I even quoted an agnostic scientist saying that sex does appear to be something like the original sin against the immortality of the pre-sex organisms.

Death, the literal dis-integration of the husk of the body, was the grim price exacted by meiotic sexuality. Complex development in protoctists and their animal and plant descendants led to the evolution of death as a kind of sexually transmitted disease.

Lynn Margulis, Symbiotic Planet, p. 90.​
There are plenty of books that explain the history of the Bible WITHOUT the baggage of religious belief. This is more relevant than what any given believer thinks of the Bible. You have your beliefs that you assign for your personal meaning. That has nothing to do with any of us. You believe Genesis says something that is not in the text, and that's fine. What you have presented is pretty far-fetched and tells us more about you than Genesis. You have a lot of work to do.

Some people seem to confuse their worldview with factuality. If they believe something, it's a fact, and if they don't, it's not factual. But facts don't work that way.

I can show that it's factual that within orthodox Judeo/Christian tradition, sex is associated with the loss of immortality: that the first instance of sex led to the first case of death. The fact that its factual that the Bible claims that, doesn't necessarily mean it's factual that sex and death are related. So I've quoted two world renown scientists, one with a Phd in biology, saying that it appears sex and death are related.
A fact that something is believed within a dogma is NOT the same as that belief being factual. This keeps going over your head.

So you see, I'm not really just spouting my personal opinions and dogmatically claiming they're the facts. I'm developing a factual thesis (constructed of facts) that you are rejecting because it conflicts with your worldview, which of late you seem to equate with factuality and base reality: if you believe it, it's factual, and if you don't it's not.
Again, you have this switched around. Your interpretation of popper IS your personal opinion. Your beliefs about Genesis being a speciation event IS your personal opinion. Your confusion of gender being species IS your personal opinion. Your assertion that induction doesn't work IS your personal opinion. We are rejecting your claims because you are factually wrong. You make no effort to adjust your errors, or even acknowledge that your approach is highly flawed.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Since Popper isn't here to agree or disagree with you, and engage with us directly, it would be polite to not represent him in case you are interpreting him all wrong.

Some who believe in inductive logic are anxious to point out . . . that `the principal of induction is unreservedly accepted by the whole of science and that no man can seriously doubt this principal in everyday life either'. Yet even supposing this were the case --- for after all, `the whole of science' might err --- I should still contend that a principal of induction is superfluous, and that it must lead to logical inconsistencies.

Karl Popper, The Logic of Scientific Discovery, p. 29.

There is no inductive method which could lead to the fundamental concepts of physics. Failure to understand this fact constituted the basic philosophical error of so many investigators of the nineteenth century.

Albert Einstein, Out of My Later Years, p. 78.

I hold that neither animals nor men use any procedure like induction, or any argument based on the repetition of instances. The belief that we use induction is simply a mistake. It’s a kind of optical illusion.

David Miller’s, Popper Selections, p. 103,104.​

These are the quotations I gave to establish my premise that it's possible that induction, though it's accepted as obvious, might not be so obvious. If you can say with a straight face that I'm misinterpreting these quotations, that, perhaps they're clearly saying induction is a foregone conclusion, then I think it's fair to say we're in the limbo of the lost so far as thoughtful dialogue is concerned.

We naturally need to dialogue with some generalizations. It seems pretty fair to me to say, generally speaking, that Einstein and Popper argue against the idea that induction leads to scientific discovery. This doesn't mean they're correct. And I'm not even arguing from the dogmatic point of view that I'm correct. I'm making generalizations, and positing a theory that isn't orthodox science. I'm not saying it's correct. I'm making points that would give some credence to my theory.



John
 

Magical Wand

Active Member
That I am told is what came from the Judeo Christian view of the universe and a God who worked with consistent laws and this is why the West advanced in science before the East.

I don't see how belief in a universe with "consistent laws" originally came from the Christian view (unless you think the Greeks were Christians). As Jane Ruby explained: "Although prima facie, the explanation of scientific "law" as arising from the idea of divine legislation is highly plausible, it is for the most part mistaken." (The Origins of Scientific "Law")

You wrote: "Then is a round about way, with the advances in science many started saying that the religious beliefs which led to them must be untrue."

Even if I grant that Christians came up with the idea of uniformity of nature, that doesn't mean belief in uniformity is a "religious belief". In fact, the principle of uniformity can be justified without mentioning religious belief at all.

You wrote: "But naturalism is not something that science has concluded. Science cannot say one way or the other about the existence of a God/s."

That's just an unjustified assertion. The opposite is true, actually. Many apologists argue it is possible to, at least in principle, find scientific evidence of a creator (for example, if science proves the universe came out of nothing physical, that would be evidence of a creator). Of course, you may need philosophy to conclude anything from the scientific discoveries, but science is heavily required. Moreover, supernatural events can in principle be discovered by science. For example, parapsychologists claim to have scientific evidence of a supernatural world and so on. The only problem with this field is that the scientists commit of a lot of methodological mistakes; but that doesn't meant the correct method can't find supernatural events.

You wrote: "Methodological naturalism, as a conclusion can be changed,,,,,,,,,,,,,but because of people and power structures etc are at play not too many scientists are willing to say, it was a miracle, as an answer to any problem."

That's just conspiracy non-sense.

You wrote: "Methodological naturalism has thus turned into an axiom and nobody in science can speak against it without being put on the outer."

Something can't "become" an axiom. An axiom is assumed without evidence (for if evidence is presented then it wouldn't be an axiom at all). The axiom of science is evidentialism. Methodological naturalism is a conclusion (as Carrier explained in that article).

You wrote: "Any science which has a God as an assumption behind it is seen as a pseudo science"

Any non-axiomatic (non-basic) belief that is just assumed to be true isn't just non-scientific, but irrational. That is, it is not just irrational from a scientific point of view, but also from a philosophical point of view. In fact, even educated fundamentalists recognize this fact and that's why many of them (such as Alvin Plantinga and Alston) try to make belief in God axiomatic.
 
Last edited:

Magical Wand

Active Member
. . . I think he meant it took a metaphysical perch for the Greeks to grasp the idea. It's from that metaphysical idea, that the modern concept of the atom became "natural."

There is no reason to believe atomism was ever considered to postulate supernatural entities (by ancient or modern standards). This reply undermines the rest of your response.
 

Magical Wand

Active Member
The idea is that if our natural means of perception, our empirical perception of the world, is faithful to reveal the world in all its reality, then the aboriginal man would still people the planet since he would have no reason to posit any other world. Worse, he'd have no impetus to change the world.

There are aboriginal tribes right now who trust the natural appearance of the world so much that they would never believe their people could, in a few hundred years, go from the brilliance of their lady-folk crushing corn with a stone, and their men folk designing and implementing spears with pointy-addendum, to sending a man to another planet.

Popper didn't say anything in that passage about "aboriginal man". You're making that up. I stand to my explanation that Popper didn't say the mind operates or exists beyond the physical world.
 
Top