Metaphysics

[Kristoffer]

Do you believe in Allah or the hinduistic gods?

What are your metaphysical understanding?

 

[Parsiba]

Waheguru Ji Ki Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


Question (1)

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

Raamakalee Mehalaa 5 ||

रामकली महला ५ ॥

Raamkalee, Fifth Mehl:

37765 ਪੰ. ੭

ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲੈ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਕੋਈ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥

Koee Bolai Raam Raam Koee Khudhaae ||

कोई बोलै राम राम कोई खुदाइ ॥

Some call Him, 'Raam, Raam', and some call Him, 'Khudaa-i'.

37766 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੮
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਕੋਈ ਸੇਵੈ ਗੁਸਈਆ ਕੋਈ ਅਲਾਹਿ ॥੧॥

Koee Saevai Guseeaa Koee Alaahi ||1||

कोई सेवै गुसईआ कोई अलाहि ॥१॥

Some serve Him as 'Gusain', others as 'Allaah'. ||1||

37767 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੮
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev


ਕਾਰਣ ਕਰਣ ਕਰੀਮ ॥

Kaaran Karan Kareem ||

कारण करण करीम ॥

He is the Cause of causes, the Generous Lord.

37768 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੮
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev


ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਰਹੀਮ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Kirapaa Dhhaar Reheem ||1|| Rehaao ||

किरपा धारि रहीम ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

He showers His Grace and Mercy upon us. ||1||Pause||

37769 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੯
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਕੋਈ ਨਾਵੈ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਕੋਈ ਹਜ ਜਾਇ ॥

Koee Naavai Theerathh Koee Haj Jaae ||

कोई नावै तीरथि कोई हज जाइ ॥

Some bathe at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, and some make the pilgrimage to Mecca.|

37770 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੯
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਕੋਈ ਕਰੈ ਪੂਜਾ ਕੋਈ ਸਿਰੁ ਨਿਵਾਇ ॥੨॥

Koee Karai Poojaa Koee Sir Nivaae ||2||

कोई करै पूजा कोई सिरु निवाइ ॥२॥

Some perform devotional worship services, and some bow their heads in prayer. ||2||

37771 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੯
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਕੋਈ ਪੜੈ ਬੇਦ ਕੋਈ ਕਤੇਬ ॥

Koee Parrai Baedh Koee Kathaeb ||

कोई पड़ै बेद कोई कतेब ॥

Some read the Vedas, and some the Koran.

37772 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੧੦
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev


ਕੋਈ ਓਢੈ ਨੀਲ ਕੋਈ ਸੁਪੇਦ ॥੩॥

Koee Oudtai Neel Koee Supaedh ||3||

कोई ओढै नील कोई सुपेद ॥३॥

Some wear blue robes, and some wear white. ||3||

37773 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੧੦
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਕੋਈ ਕਹੈ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕੋਈ ਕਹੈ ਹਿੰਦੂ ॥

Koee Kehai Thurak Koee Kehai Hindhoo ||

कोई कहै तुरकु कोई कहै हिंदू ॥

Some call themselves Muslim, and some call themselves Hindu.

37774 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੧੦
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਕੋਈ ਬਾਛੈ ਭਿਸਤੁ ਕੋਈ ਸੁਰਗਿੰਦੂ ॥੪॥

Koee Baashhai Bhisath Koee Suragindhoo ||4||

कोई बाछै भिसतु कोई सुरगिंदू ॥४॥

Some yearn for paradise, and others long for heaven. ||4||

37775 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੧੧
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਤਾ ॥

Kahu Naanak Jin Hukam Pashhaathaa ||

कहु नानक जिनि हुकमु पछाता ॥

Says Nanak, one who realizes the Hukam of God's Will,

37776 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੧੧
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਜਾਤਾ ॥੫॥੯॥

Prabh Saahib Kaa Thin Bhaedh Jaathaa ||5||9||

प्रभ साहिब का तिनि भेदु जाता ॥५॥९॥

Knows the secrets of his Lord and Master. ||5||9||

37777 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੧੧
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



Question (2)



ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਲਖ ਆਗਾਸਾ ਆਗਾਸ ॥

Paathaalaa Paathaal Lakh Aagaasaa Aagaas ||

पाताला पाताल लख आगासा आगास ॥

There are nether worlds beneath nether worlds, and hundreds of thousands of heavenly worlds above.


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 

[Treks]

Do you believe in Allah or the hinduistic gods?

What are your metaphysical understanding?

Dear @Kristoffer

Question 1
Short answer: Neither.
Longer answer: The Sikh concept of "god" is unique. It cannot be adequately described by "Allah" or any Hindu (Sanatan) name for god. As Parsiba's Gurbani quote for question 1 above shows, the concluding lines are: "Says Nanak, one who realizes the Hukam of God's Will, knows the secrets of his Lord and Master. ||5||9||" Without making Sikhism out as being superior to Islam or Sanatan Dharma (Hinduism), the Sikh concept of god extends is beyond their descriptions of god. Some Sanatan schools come very close, though.

Question 2
Can you be more specific, please?

Thanks
Treks

 

[Kristoffer]

Dear @Kristoffer

Question 1
Short answer: Neither.
Longer answer: The Sikh concept of "god" is unique. It cannot be adequately described by "Allah" or any Hindu (Sanatan) name for god. As Parsiba's Gurbani quote for question 1 above shows, the concluding lines are: "Says Nanak, one who realizes the Hukam of God's Will, knows the secrets of his Lord and Master. ||5||9||" Without making Sikhism out as being superior to Islam or Sanatan Dharma (Hinduism), the Sikh concept of god extends is beyond their descriptions of god. Some Sanatan schools come very close, though.

Hmm... Could you please try to tell me one more time? I didn't quite get it, you see. But very interesting of what i understood, though ^^

Dear @Kristoffer
Question 2
Can you be more specific, please?

Thanks
Treks

Ofc! I mean to ask of what does your life after death unfold? What kind of relation do you have to your god, etc?

 

[Kristoffer]

Waheguru Ji Ki Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


Question (1)

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

Raamakalee Mehalaa 5 ||

रामकली महला ५ ॥

Raamkalee, Fifth Mehl:

37765 ਪੰ. ੭

ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲੈ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਕੋਈ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥

Koee Bolai Raam Raam Koee Khudhaae ||

कोई बोलै राम राम कोई खुदाइ ॥

Some call Him, 'Raam, Raam', and some call Him, 'Khudaa-i'.

37766 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੮
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਕੋਈ ਸੇਵੈ ਗੁਸਈਆ ਕੋਈ ਅਲਾਹਿ ॥੧॥

Koee Saevai Guseeaa Koee Alaahi ||1||

कोई सेवै गुसईआ कोई अलाहि ॥१॥

Some serve Him as 'Gusain', others as 'Allaah'. ||1||

37767 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੮
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev


ਕਾਰਣ ਕਰਣ ਕਰੀਮ ॥

Kaaran Karan Kareem ||

कारण करण करीम ॥

He is the Cause of causes, the Generous Lord.

37768 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੮
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev


ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਰਹੀਮ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Kirapaa Dhhaar Reheem ||1|| Rehaao ||

किरपा धारि रहीम ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

He showers His Grace and Mercy upon us. ||1||Pause||

37769 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੯
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਕੋਈ ਨਾਵੈ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਕੋਈ ਹਜ ਜਾਇ ॥

Koee Naavai Theerathh Koee Haj Jaae ||

कोई नावै तीरथि कोई हज जाइ ॥

Some bathe at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, and some make the pilgrimage to Mecca.|

37770 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੯
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਕੋਈ ਕਰੈ ਪੂਜਾ ਕੋਈ ਸਿਰੁ ਨਿਵਾਇ ॥੨॥

Koee Karai Poojaa Koee Sir Nivaae ||2||

कोई करै पूजा कोई सिरु निवाइ ॥२॥

Some perform devotional worship services, and some bow their heads in prayer. ||2||

37771 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੯
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਕੋਈ ਪੜੈ ਬੇਦ ਕੋਈ ਕਤੇਬ ॥

Koee Parrai Baedh Koee Kathaeb ||

कोई पड़ै बेद कोई कतेब ॥

Some read the Vedas, and some the Koran.

37772 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੧੦
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev


ਕੋਈ ਓਢੈ ਨੀਲ ਕੋਈ ਸੁਪੇਦ ॥੩॥

Koee Oudtai Neel Koee Supaedh ||3||

कोई ओढै नील कोई सुपेद ॥३॥

Some wear blue robes, and some wear white. ||3||

37773 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੧੦
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਕੋਈ ਕਹੈ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕੋਈ ਕਹੈ ਹਿੰਦੂ ॥

Koee Kehai Thurak Koee Kehai Hindhoo ||

कोई कहै तुरकु कोई कहै हिंदू ॥

Some call themselves Muslim, and some call themselves Hindu.

37774 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੧੦
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਕੋਈ ਬਾਛੈ ਭਿਸਤੁ ਕੋਈ ਸੁਰਗਿੰਦੂ ॥੪॥

Koee Baashhai Bhisath Koee Suragindhoo ||4||

कोई बाछै भिसतु कोई सुरगिंदू ॥४॥

Some yearn for paradise, and others long for heaven. ||4||

37775 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੧੧
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਤਾ ॥

Kahu Naanak Jin Hukam Pashhaathaa ||

कहु नानक जिनि हुकमु पछाता ॥

Says Nanak, one who realizes the Hukam of God's Will,

37776 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੧੧
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਜਾਤਾ ॥੫॥੯॥

Prabh Saahib Kaa Thin Bhaedh Jaathaa ||5||9||

प्रभ साहिब का तिनि भेदु जाता ॥५॥९॥

Knows the secrets of his Lord and Master. ||5||9||

37777 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫ ਪੰ. ੧੧
Raag Raamkali Guru Arjan Dev



Question (2)



ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਲਖ ਆਗਾਸਾ ਆਗਾਸ ॥

Paathaalaa Paathaal Lakh Aagaasaa Aagaas ||

पाताला पाताल लख आगासा आगास ॥

There are nether worlds beneath nether worlds, and hundreds of thousands of heavenly worlds above.


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Thank you for already answering some of that which i wondered about! I would though really like a more detailed explanation, though Was this from one of your gurus, that you posted?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Sikhs believe in One Supreme, which they term as 'Ek Onkar'. The idea is exactly like that of Brahman in Hinduism. No other thing exists, all things are but 'Ek Onkar'.

 

[Kalibhakta]

Dear @Kristoffer

Question 1
Short answer: Neither.
Longer answer: The Sikh concept of "god" is unique. It cannot be adequately described by "Allah" or any Hindu (Sanatan) name for god. As Parsiba's Gurbani quote for question 1 above shows, the concluding lines are: "Says Nanak, one who realizes the Hukam of God's Will, knows the secrets of his Lord and Master. ||5||9||" Without making Sikhism out as being superior to Islam or Sanatan Dharma (Hinduism), the Sikh concept of god extends is beyond their descriptions of god. Some Sanatan schools come very close, though.

Question 2
Can you be more specific, please?

Thanks
Treks

I have a question myself.

Now,I know the Sikhs are not Abrahamic. They do not say any of the Koranic/Biblical myths are true, ect. But their strict monotheism and iconoclastic nature seem to be more Muslim then Hindu. It is true, that reincarnation, and karma, and a strict pantheism are much more Hindu then Muslim, but in Sufism, god is also pantheistic to a lesser degree, and a lot of Sikh devotional work is inspired by Sufis directly, and the Sufi-flavored Sant Hindus even more.

Minus Abrahamic background, like the Prophets, the Flood, ect... how is God in Sikhism not like Allah? He seems to have more personality then Brahman.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Of course, Islam influenced Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji. The Sikh God does not ask you to worship Him only and no other Gods. Mool mantar (the root instruction):

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

|(SGGS, ang 1 (and 107 more angs))

"ikk ōankār sat(i)-nām(u) karatā purakh(u) nirabha'u niravair(u) akāla mūrat(i) ajūnī saibhan(g) gur(a) prasād(i)."
One Creator, The True Name, Creator of the Universe, Beyond Fear, Beyond Hatred, Beyond Death and Time, Unborn, Self-Illuminated, the Guru's Grace.

 

[Kristoffer]

So, is Ek Onkar pantheistic, or panentheistic?

Does the sikhs divide between good and evil, or are these just illusions? Like, that Ek Onkar is the true reality, and as you saidAupmanyav: "nothing else exists"?

I also wonder about what Kalibhakta are asking about.

Do you know how the afterlife unfolds for a sikh?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Just like what for a Hindu. Of course, all Indian religions see the difference between good and evil, merit and sin. This at the apparent level. At the absolute level, it is all one. Muslims are not pantheistic or panentheistic, nor the Christians are. IMHO, Sikhs are panenthestic. Sikhs or any other knowledgeable person are welcome to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Treks]

Dear Kristoffer

What I meant was that in the Quran, Allah appears to be a personality, an individual. The most obvious examples of this type of god-character is Jehova in the Christian Bible, and the many gods and goddesses one sees within the Hindu pantheon (Shiva, Vishnu, etc). As other posters have already mentioned, the Sikh concept of 'god' is panentheistic - the Creative Force permeates the creation and also extends beyond it. It is everything and more. If creation is a wave in the ocean, god is the ocean, the entire ocean.

Sikh life-after-death is described as a 'merging' into the Creative Force. Some Sikhs believe their light (soul) is reincarnated until finally it merges into The Light (God). Other Sikhs feel that death is death, and that humans have one shot at realising the unity of the Ek Onkar while alive - that is the merging of their light into The Light, since we're never actually separated to begin with, it's a matter of perspective.

I can't answer your question about good and evil. I never quite resolved that one myself.

@Aupmanyav , I understand there is a difference between Brahma and Brahman in Hinduism, but I can't find any references to Brahman (not a "priest") in the Gurbani. The only references are to Brahma. I do not know if the Ik Onkar is identical to Brahman or not. Can you explain why you believe they are exactly the same?

The Sikh God doesn't ask anything. It doesn't "speak" to people. But Gurbani is relatively clear that there is no use in worshipping any other thing except Naam. Naam can be perceived by anyone - not just Sikhs. It's those spiritual truths that are common to all people. It's the reality that is, despite whichever religion a person follows.

@Kalibhakta , Sikhs are strictly panentheistic, not monotheistic. Sikhi is iconoclastic in as far as it challenged the religions prevelant at the time of the Gurus. In fact, the other writers in Sri Guru Granth Sahib all seem to have been somewhat iconoclastic against established beliefs, because Sikhi (to my understanding) is less about religion and more about changing an individual's perspective to a rational way of thinking devoid of superstition.

What personality do you see coming from the Ik Onkar in Sikhi? I am intrigued.

 

[Aupmanyav]

@Aupmanyav , I understand there is a difference between Brahma and Brahman in Hinduism, but I can't find any references to Brahman (not a "priest") in the Gurbani. The only references are to Brahma. I do not know if the Ik Onkar is identical to Brahman or not. Can you explain why you believe they are exactly the same?

If you remember, we had a discussion on this (Non-duality in Sikhism | ReligiousForums.com and Gursikh opined that 'Ek Onkar' in Sikhism is exactly the same as 'Brahman' in Hinduism, totally non-dual. So, if they are mentioning 'Ek Onkar', it is the same as 'Brahman', the difference is only in nomenclature.

 

[Treks]

Thanks for the reminder - I remember now!

Can you please tell me more about Brahman, per your understanding?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Brahman in Hinduism is normally the uninvolved Supreme Soul of which all souls are parts. Creation and all the rest is done by his ever accompanying 'Maya'. Recently I saw a video by a celebrated Hindu preacher who said the 'Shaktiman' (powerful) is never dissociated with his 'Shakti' (power) - like a wrestler will always be with his power, inseparable, like Radha and Krishna or Shiva and Parvati. Other like me take Brahman to be just the building material for all things in the world, the 'substrate' constituting all things, again uninvolved. And the perceived only to be an illusion. We are governed by the rules of the perceived world, which requires our action and that should be what helps us collectively, therefore, 'dharma'. A very poor description of Brahman you could say.

 

[Kalibhakta]

@Treks I always found what little I have read about Sikhism that Wahguru has a positive, benevolent personality and a "will". He *for lack of disrespect for using the word 'it'* does not seem to be the passive monism Aupmanyav is talking about

Pure Brahman in Hinduism has no will, as far as I can tell. Ishvara, the supreme lord, most decidedly has a will and personality

 

[GURSIKH]

hi Kristoffer ,
Unlike Strict Monotheistic Allah which is separate from creation and Unlike popular Hindu concepts of Gods like Shiva ,Vishnu/Krishna ,Brahma having Wife ,Kids,parents ... Sikhi God/Waheguru is panentheistic .
below is related shabad by Tenth Guru

ਤ੍ਵਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਚਉਪਈ ॥
त्वप्रसादि चउपई ॥
BY THY GRACE QUATRAIN (CHAUPAI)

ਪ੍ਰਣਵੋ ਆਦਿ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥
प्रणवो आदि एकंकारा ॥
I Salute the One Primal Lord.

ਜਲ ਥਲ ਮਹੀਅਲ ਕੀਓ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥
जल थल महीअल कीओ पसारा ॥
Who pervades the watery, earthly and heavenly expanse.

ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਬਗਤਿ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ॥
आदि पुरख अबगति अबिनासी ॥
That Primal Purusha is Unmanifested and Immortal.

ਲੋਕ ਚਤ੍ਰੁ ਦਸਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸੀ ॥੧॥
लोक चत्रु दसि जोति प्रकासी ॥१॥
His Light illumines the fourteen worlds. I.

ਹਸਤ ਕੀਟ ਕੇ ਬੀਚ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥
हसत कीट के बीच समाना ॥
He hath merged Himself within the elephant and the worm.

ਰਾਵ ਰੰਕ ਜਿਹ ਇਕਸਰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥
राव रंक जिह इकसर जाना ॥
The king and the baggar equal before Him.

ਅਦ੍ਵੈ ਅਲਖ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਬਿਗਾਮੀ ॥
अद्वै अलख पुरख अबिगामी ॥
That Non-dual and Imperceptible Purusha is Inseparable.

ਸਭ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਕੇ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥੨॥
सभ घट घट के अंतरजामी ॥२॥
He reaches the inner core of every heart.2.

ਅਲਖ ਰੂਪ ਅਛੈ ਅਨਭੇਖਾ ॥
अलख रूप अछै अनभेखा ॥
He is an Inconceivable Entity, Exernal and Garbless.

ਰਾਗ ਰੰਗ ਜਿਹ ਰੂਪ ਨ ਰੇਖਾ ॥
राग रंग जिह रूप न रेखा ॥
He is without attachment, colour, form and mark.

ਬਰਨ ਚਿਹਨ ਸਭਹੂੰ ਤੇ ਨਿਆਰਾ ॥
बरन चिहन सभहूं ते निआरा ॥
He distinct from all others of various colours and signs.

ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਦ੍ਵੈ ਅਬਿਕਾਰਾ ॥੩॥
आदि पुरख अद्वै अबिकारा ॥३॥
He is the Primal Purusha, Unique and Changeless.3.

ਬਰਨ ਚਿਹਨ ਜਿਹ ਜਾਤ ਨ ਪਾਤਾ ॥
बरन चिहन जिह जात न पाता ॥
He is without colour, mark, caste and lineage.

ਸੱਤ੍ਰ ਮਿੱਤ੍ਰ ਜਿਹ ਤਾਤ ਨ ਮਾਤਾ ॥
स्त्र मि्त्र जिह तात न माता ॥
He is the without enemy, friend, father and mother.

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਦੂਰਿ ਸਭਨ ਤੇ ਨੇਰਾ ॥
सभ ते दूरि सभन ते नेरा ॥
He is far away from all and closest to all.

ਜਲ ਥਲ ਮਹੀਅਲ ਜਾਹਿ ਬਸੇਰਾ ॥੪॥
जल थल महीअल जाहि बसेरा ॥४॥
His dwelling is within water, on earth and in heavens.4.

ਅਨਹਦ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਨੀ ॥
अनहद रूप अनाहद बानी ॥
He is Limitless Entity and hath infinite celestial strain.

ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨਿ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥
चरन सरनि जिह बसत भवानी ॥
The goddess Durga takes refuge at His Feet and abides there.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨ ਅੰਤੁ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਇਓ ॥
ब्रहमा बिसन अंतु नही पाइओ ॥
Brahma and Vishnu Could not know His end.

ਨੇਤਿ ਨੇਤਿ ਮੁਖ ਚਾਰ ਬਤਾਇਓ ॥੫॥
नेति नेति मुख चार बताइओ ॥५॥
The four-headed god Brahma described Him ad `Neti Neti` (Not this, Not this).5.

ਕੋਟਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਉਪਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਬਨਾਏ ॥
कोटि इंद्र उपइंद्र बनाए ॥
He hath created millions of Indras and Upindras (smaller Indras).

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਉਪਾਇ ਖਪਾਏ ॥
ब्रहमा रुद्र उपाइ खपाए ॥
He hath created and destroyed Brahmas and Rudras (Shivas).

ਲੋਕ ਚੱਤ੍ਰ ਦਸ ਖੇਲ ਰਚਾਇਓ ॥
लोक च्त्र दस खेल रचाइओ ॥
He hath created the play of fourteen worlds.

ਬਹੁਰ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਬੀਚ ਮਿਲਾਇਓ ॥੬॥
बहुर आप ही बीच मिलाइओ ॥६॥
And then Himself merges it within His Self.6.

ਤਾਤ ਮਾਤ ਜਿਹ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਤਾ ॥
तात मात जिह जाति न पाता ॥
He Who hath no father, mother caste and lineage.

ਏਕ ਰੰਗ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨਹਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥
एक रंग काहूं नहि राता ॥
He is not imbues with undivided love for anyone of them.

ਸਰਬ ਜੋਤਿ ਕੇ ਬੀਚ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥
सरब जोति के बीच समाना ॥
He is merged in all lights (souls).

ਸਭਹੂੰ ਸਰਬ ਠੌਰਿ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥੮॥
सभहूं सरब ठौरि पहिचाना ॥८॥
I have recognized Him within all and visualized Him at all places. 8.




and Good and evil both both are from same ,his play ..

ਤ੍ਵਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਕਬਿੱਤ ॥
त्वप्रसादि ॥ कबि्त ॥
BY THY GRACE KABITT

ਕਤਹੂੰ ਸੁਚੇਤ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਚੇਤਨਾ ਕੋ ਚਾਰ ਕੀਓ ਕਤਹੂੰ ਅਚਿੰਤ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਸੋਵਤ ਅਚੇਤ ਹੋ ॥
कतहूं सुचेत हुइ कै चेतना को चार कीओ कतहूं अचिंत हुइ कै सोवत अचेत हो ॥
O Lord! Somewhere becoming Conscious, Thou adrnest consciousness; somewhere becoming Carefree, thou sleepest unconsciously.

ਕਤਹੂੰ ਭਿਖਾਰੀ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਮਾਂਗਤ ਫਿਰਤ ਭੀਖ ਕਹੂੰ ਮਹਾ ਦਾਨਿ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਮਾਂਗਿਓ ਧਨ ਦੇਤ ਹੋ ॥
कतहूं भिखारी हुइ कै मांगत फिरत भीख कहूं महा दानि हुइ कै मांगिओ धन देत हो ॥
Somewhere becoming a beggar, Thou beggest alms and somewhere becoming a Supreme Donor, Thou bestowest the begged wealth.

ਕਹੂੰ ਮਹਾਂ ਰਾਜਨ ਕੋ ਦੀਜਤ ਅਨੰਤ ਦਾਨ ਕਹੂੰ ਮਹਾ ਰਾਜਨ ਤੇ ਛੀਨ ਛਿਤ ਲੇਤ ਹੋ ॥
कहूं महां राजन को दीजत अनंत दान कहूं महा राजन ते छीन छित लेत हो ॥
Some where Thou givest inexhaustible gifts to emperors and somewhere Thou deprivest the emperors of their kingdoms.

ਕਹੂੰ ਬੇਦਿ ਰੀਤਿ ਕਹੂੰ ਤਾ ਸਿਉ ਬਿਪਰੀਤ ਕਹੂੰ ਤ੍ਰਿਗੁਨ ਅਤੀਤ ਕਹੂੰ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਸਮੇਤ ਹੋ ॥੧॥੧੧॥
कहूं बेदि रीति कहूं ता सिउ बिपरीत कहूं त्रिगुन अतीत कहूं सरगुन समेत हो ॥१॥११॥
Somewhere Thou workest in accordance with Vedic rites and somewhere Thou art quite opposed to it; somewhere Thou art without three modes of maya and somewhere Thou hast all godly attributes.1.11.

ਕਹੂੰ ਜੱਛ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਉਰਗ ਕਹੂੰ ਬਿਦਿਆਧਰ ਕਹੂੰ ਭਏ ਕਿੰਨਰ ਪਿਸਾਚ ਕਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਹੋ ॥
कहूं ज्छ गंध्रब उरग कहूं बिदिआधर कहूं भए किंनर पिसाच कहूं प्रेत हो ॥
O Lord! Somewhere Thou art Yaksha, Gandharva, Sheshanaga and Vidyadhar and somewhere Thou becomest Kinnar, Pishacha and Preta.


ਕਹੂੰ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਹਿੰਦੂਆ ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ ਕੋ ਗੁਪਤ ਜਪਿਓ ਕਹੂੰ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਤੁਰਕਾ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ਬਾਂਗ ਦੇਤ ਹੋ ॥
कहूं हुइ कै हिंदूआ गाइत्री को गुपत जपिओ कहूं हुइ कै तुरका पुकारे बांग देत हो ॥
Somewhere Thou becomest a Hindu and repeatest Gayatri secretly: Somewhere becoming a Turk Thou callest Muslims to worship.

ਕਹੂੰ ਕੋਕ ਕਾਬ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੋ ਪੜਤ ਮਤਿ ਕਤਹੂੰ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਕੋ ਨਿਦਾਨ ਜਾਨ ਲੇਤ ਹੋ ॥
कहूं कोक काब हुइ कै पुरान को पड़त मति कतहूं कुरान को निदान जान लेत हो ॥
Somewhere being a poet thou recitest the Pauranic wisdom and somewhere Thou recitest the Pauranic wisdom and somewhere Thou comprehendest the essence of Quran.

ਕਹੂੰ ਬੇਦ ਰੀਤ ਕਹੂੰ ਤਾ ਸਿਉ ਬਿਪਰੀਤ ਕਹੂੰ ਤ੍ਰਿਗੁਨ ਅਤੀਤ ਕਹੂੰ ਸੁਰਗੁਨ ਸਮੇਤ ਹੋ ॥੨॥੧੨॥
कहूं बेद रीत कहूं ता सिउ बिपरीत कहूं त्रिगुन अतीत कहूं सुरगुन समेत हो ॥२॥१२॥
Somewhere Thou workest in accordance with Vedic rites and somewhere Thou art quite opposed to it; somewhere Thou art without threee modes of maya and somewhere Thou hast all godly attributes. 2.12.

ਕਹੂੰ ਦੇਵਤਾਨ ਕੇ ਦਿਵਾਨ ਮੈ ਬਿਰਾਜਮਾਨ ਕਹੂੰ ਦਾਨਵਾਨ ਕੋ ਗੁਮਾਨ ਮਤਿ ਦੇਤ ਹੋ ॥
कहूं देवतान के दिवान मै बिराजमान कहूं दानवान को गुमान मति देत हो ॥
O Lord! Somewhere Thou art seated in the Court of gods and somewhere Thou givest the egoistic intellect to demons.

ਕਹੂੰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਰਾਜਾ ਕੋ ਮਿਲਤ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਪਦਵੀ ਸੀ ਕਹੂੰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਪਦਵੀ ਛਪਾਇ ਛੀਨ ਲੇਤ ਹੋ ॥
कहूं इंद्र राजा को मिलत इंद्र पदवी सी कहूं इंद्र पदवी छपाइ छीन लेत हो ॥
Somewhere Thou Bestowest the position of of the king of gods to Indra and somewhere Thou deprivest Indra of this position.

ਕਤਹੂੰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਬਿਚਾਰ ਕੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਤ ਹੋ ਕਹੂੰ ਨਿਜ ਨਾਰਿ ਪਰਨਾਰਿ ਕੇ ਨਿਕੇਤ ਹੋ ॥
कतहूं बिचार अबिचार को बिचारत हो कहूं निज नारि परनारि के निकेत हो ॥
Somewhere Thou discriminatest between good and bad intellect, somewhere Thou art with Thy own spouse and somewhere with another`s wife.

ਕਹੂੰ ਬੇਦ ਰੀਤ ਕਹੂੰ ਤਾ ਸਿਉ ਬਿਪਰੀਤ ਕਹੂੰ ਤ੍ਰਿਗੁਨ ਅਤੀਤ ਕਹੂੰ ਸੁਰਗੁਨ ਸਮੇਤ ਹੋ ॥੩॥੧੩॥
कहूं बेद रीत कहूं ता सिउ बिपरीत कहूं त्रिगुन अतीत कहूं सुरगुन समेत हो ॥३॥१३॥
Somewhere Thou workest in accordance with Vedic rites and somewhere Thou art quite opposed to it; somewhere Thou art without three modes of maya and somewhere Thou hast all godly attributes. 3.13.

 

[Treks]

You're right, Aup. The description seems to align with what I know of the Ik Onkar, however Kalibhakta disagrees. He sees a personality, which we can probably agree is on the next ladder rung down from Brahman. However...

@Treks I always found what little I have read about Sikhism that Wahguru has a positive, benevolent personality and a "will". He *for lack of disrespect for using the word 'it'* does not seem to be the passive monism Aupmanyav is talking about

Pure Brahman in Hinduism has no will, as far as I can tell. Ishvara, the supreme lord, most decidedly has a will and personality

"Waheguru" is not a name, it is an exclamation. Did you know it only appears on 5 lines of Gurbani in the entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

The "will" (hukam) mentioned in Gurbani is closer to laws of nature than the personal will of a being.

Gurbani makes extensive use of a poetic device to personalise the impersonal Ik Onkar. It helps the Sikh develop appreciation and love for everything.

And you can call It "It" without disrespect. It has no gender.

 

[Kristoffer]

Very interesting discussion!

The Sikh God doesn't ask anything. It doesn't "speak" to people. But Gurbani is relatively clear that there is no use in worshipping any other thing except Naam. Naam can be perceived by anyone - not just Sikhs. It's those spiritual truths that are common to all people. It's the reality that is, despite whichever religion a person follows.

What is the difference between Naam and Ik Onkar?

 

[Aupmanyav]

None. 'Naam' means 'name' and points to 'Ik Onkar'. If you ask a Sikh or a Hindu 'What is your name?', then he may jovially (or seriously) reply 'The name is for only one, however, this body is known as 'so-and-so'. An Indian Muslim may also say 'Name is only for Allah, however, ..'. The idea is not to lay too much stress on individuality because that creates pride, one of the cardinal errors - Ahamkar.

 

[Kalibhakta]

That was amazing, Treks, Thank you. I have a greater understanding now