#metoo (unless you're a Jew)

[Jayhawker Soule]

See

Times of Israel > Global women's rights group silent as Israel women testify about rapes by Hamas​

and note its link to Israeli First Lady Michal Herzog published opinion piece in Newsweek. This is just one facet of the increasing normalization of antisemitism, albeit a deeply disturbing one.

 

[Revoltingest]

See

Times of Israel > Global women's rights group silent as Israel women testify about rapes by Hamas​

and note its link to Israeli First Lady Michal Herzog published opinion piece in Newsweek. This is just one facet of the increasing normalization of antisemitism, albeit a deeply disturbing one.

Don't conflate anti-Israel with anti-semitism.
To do so is just an islamophobic trick to silence Israel's critics.
Moreover, Israelis aren't above such atrocities.

IDF, settlers allegedly bind, strip, beat, burn, urinate on 3 Palestinians in W. Bank

Palestinian accuses suspects of attempted sodomy in attack days after Hamas onslaught; Israeli activists say they were also victimized; IDF boots commanding officer, launches probe

www.timesofisrael.com

Israeli torture in the occupied territories - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why Israeli Settler Attacks Are Increasing

The government's extreme-right shift and the surge in deadly violence between Israelis and Palestinians are inextricably linked.

time.com

We're now seeing increasing tolerance of being pro Palestinian,
rights, pro Muslim rights, & criticism of Israel's killing, maiming,
theft, group punishment, apartheid, torture, indefinite imprisonment
without charging, & war crimes.

 

[Debater Slayer]

See

Times of Israel > Global women's rights group silent as Israel women testify about rapes by Hamas​

and note its link to Israeli First Lady Michal Herzog published opinion piece in Newsweek. This is just one facet of the increasing normalization of antisemitism, albeit a deeply disturbing one.

I'm conflicted about the article, for two reasons:

• If an organization doesn't deny but also doesn't publicly assert, as fact, allegations for which it doesn't have access to solid evidence in the middle of a war where 1,200 Israelis and 14,000 Palestinians have been killed, does this constitute dismissal or necessary prudence and responsibility?

• Which is more responsible for an influential public figure or an organization: to refuse to either deny or assert the allegations as fact pending further investigation and evidence, or to immediately assert them as fact and inevitably further inflame already (and understandably) intense emotions during a war without first having definitive evidence on their hands, which would almost surely drum up and enable more support for extreme military measures that have, as of this moment, killed over 14,000 people—also including thousands of women?

I see no easy or straightforward answer to these questions, and I'm thankful I'm not in a position where I would have to make such a decision.

My decision, as someone with virtually no influence or power in the grand scheme of things and who doesn't have to make highly influential public statements, is to be more inclined to believe (and therefore support further investigation of) even one civilian eyewitness's account over an extremist group whose actions have shown that they are not above murdering and brutalizing civilians.

 

[icehorse]

Don't conflate anti-Israel with anti-semitism.
To do so is just an islamophobic trick to silence Israel's critics.

I thought the gist of this included misogyny?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I see no easy or straightforward answer to these questions, and I'm thankful I'm not in a position where I would have to make such a decision.

I think you make a valid observation. Nevertheless, given the following report from CNN by way of example ...

Israel’s police acknowledge their investigation may take months, and Elkayam-Levy said it remains unclear how or where any prosecutions would be handled, though she noted that some families of dual nationals could seek justice in countries other than Israel as well as pursue cases in international courts.​

​

But officials provided a stark window into the evidence they have been gathering at a press briefing, which included a statement from a woman who witnessed the Nova festival attack from her hiding place on October 7.​

​

“They bent someone over and I understood he was raping her, and then he was passing her on to someone else,” the woman, who was not identified, said of what she saw.​

​

“She was alive, she stood on her feet and she was bleeding from her back. I saw that he was pulling her hair. She had long brown hair. I saw him chop off her breast and then he was throwing it toward the road, tossed it to someone else and they started playing with it.”​

​

The witness added: “I remember seeing another person raping her, and while he was still inside her he shot her in the head.”​

... the last thing I would do is stay silent. At the very least I would publicly insist that the allegations are extremely disturbing and deserve the most serious and thorough investigation.

 

[Revoltingest]

I thought the gist of this included misogyny?

It did, but presented with
a hint of islamophobia.

 

[libre]

See

Times of Israel > Global women's rights group silent as Israel women testify about rapes by Hamas​

and note its link to Israeli First Lady Michal Herzog published opinion piece in Newsweek. This is just one facet of the increasing normalization of antisemitism, albeit a deeply disturbing one.

I think that the letter signed by Samantha Pearson has been pretty consistently misrepresented by the Canadian press.
I understand that the mention in the letter that the assaults were 'Unverified' is damaging to survivors. I would not have signed this letter, but it's been so ridiculously distorted as 'pro-hamas' and 'rape apologia'.

However the letter was a denunciation of using these 'unverified' assaults as a nationalizing project during war time in support of an occupying nation.

I don't think it's entirely unreasonable however to expect a considerable level of evidence for events used to promote wars - we don't need another Nayirah situation. There is a crucial difference between objecting to Jagmeet Singh's use of these assaults to defend Israel and trying to smear survivors.

I do think that Hamas aren't saints and it seems incredibly unrealistic to me to suggest that they did not/have not engaged in sexual violence since the 7th. For the record, I find other's comments on this forum trying to argue that rape has not occurred by citing the Quran to be shameful and should be called out as such.

 

[icehorse]

For the record, I find other's comments on this forum trying to argue that rape has not occurred by citing the Quran to be shameful and should be called out as such.

While I haven't talked about the rape issue in this context, I do have a broader question:

Do you take Muslims at their word, or do you assume "oh, they must not take their own claims seriously" ?

 

[libre]

While I haven't talked about the rape issue in this context, I do have a broader question:

Do you take Muslims at their word, or do you assume "oh, they must not take their own claims seriously" ?

I don't really understand what you're asking here. Taking 'Muslims' at their word about what exactly?

As I previously mentioned, anyone trying to argue that assaults couldn't have happened because the alleged assailants were Muslim are engaging in shameful apologetics.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I would not have signed this letter, but it's been so ridiculously distorted as 'pro-hamas' and 'rape apologia'.

However the letter was a denunciation of using these 'unverified' assaults as a nationalizing project during war time in support of an occupying nation.

I do not believe that the letter is 'pro-hamas' and 'rape apologia'. I do believe

• that is was carefully scripted,
• that a much different public posture would have been taken had the 'victims' been Palestinians and the perpetrators characterized as 'the occupation forces,'
• that given the latter scenario, we would not have been treated to "a denunciation of using these 'unverified' assaults as a nationalizing project during war time in support of a terrorist organization," and
• that characterizing the rape claims as a "nationalizing project" demonstrates disgusting prejudice and a complete absence of respect for verification.

 

[libre]

• that characterizing the rape claims as a "nationalizing project"

To be clear, I am not saying that survivors coming forward are participating in a nationalizing project.
I'm talking about the comments of Canadian politicians who are using those allegations to support a pro-Israel stance in this war while tensions are high.

 

[libre]

that given the latter scenario, we would not have been treated to "a denunciation of using these 'unverified' assaults as a nationalizing project during war time in support of a terrorist organization," and

I have never seen a nationalizing project in support of Palestine in the Western world.

I have never seen a Canadian politician argue that Israel's violence justifies Palestinian violence.
I have seen Canadian politicians argue that Palestinian violence justifies Israeli violence at every single opportunity for the last 20 years.

If Canada wanted to justify a war with Israel over rape allegations your thought experiment would be worth entertaining, but it's too contrary to reality to be useful exploring here. Simply there are no nationalizing projects in the West in support of terrorism against Israel. There are nationalizing projects in support of Israel and the IDF and it's atrocities against Gaza.

 

[Estro Felino]

Being a Jew has nothing to do with that.
#metoo functions only whenever the perpetrator is Caucasian and from a Western background.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If Canada wanted to justify a war with Israel over rape allegations your thought experiment would be worth entertaining, but it's too contrary to reality to be useful exploring here.

So I guess we're done ...

 

[Revoltingest]

Being a Jew has nothing to do with that.
#metoo functions only whenever the perpetrator is Caucasian and from a Western background.

Only caucasions?
Nah.
Black gals (& even men) also voice their
being sexually assaulted or otherwise abused.

 

[Estro Felino]

Only caucasions?
Nah.
Black gals (& even men) also voice their
being sexually assaulted or otherwise abused.

Yes, only if the perpetrator is Caucasian, regardless of the victims.

 

[Debater Slayer]

... the last thing I would do is stay silent. At the very least I would publicly insist that the allegations are extremely disturbing and deserve the most serious and thorough investigation.

I fully agree. I think the wisest course of action for a public figure or organization would be to support an investigation without dismissing or asserting the claims as fact in the meantime.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I fully agree. I think the wisest course of action for a public figure or organization would be to support an investigation without dismissing or asserting the claims as fact in the meantime.

You're a wise man -- I value your feedback (leaving aside, of course, your taste in music).

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, only if the perpetrator is Caucasian, regardless of the victims.

So Bill Cosby's victims aren't eligible for #metoo?
You're cray cray!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, only if the perpetrator is Caucasian, regardless of the victims.