Micah 5:1

[metis]

As a scientist, you are founded on the perceptions of many scientists preceding you. Undoubtedly, you've read several books and adopted much of their information and bias.

Obviously you really do not really understand how science works. If you have any doubts about that, get a copy of "Scientific American" and look in the first part whereas scientists will argue for and against the positions of other scientists. All professional scientific publications go into peer review whereas they are cross-examined, and that process is often quite brutal.

BTW, how about several hundred books in my case as that was my field, and it might actually be more than a thousand.

However, these scientists were observing and teaching continual/relatable phenomenon to you. You probably believe in gravity. God's word established gravity in a way that every human could relate to, and identify. Those before you have tried to identify God's word, and relate it to others in valuable ways. It is the same today, and tomorrow.

I hate to say this, but you don't also understand how the canon in both Christianity and Judaism eventually got put together. There were approximately 2000 "O.T."-type books to choose from and around 1000 "N.T."-type books to choose from, and the selection of each canon was quite contentious, especially in the case of the Christian canon.

And in no way does either canon explain the scientific composition of gravity.

 

[Tumah]

God's word is NOT malleable. But do you understand that the living Sun is also dying? The energy it inherited from the Creator will not sustain it indefinitely. The Sun's energy is being hurled down to the Earth, continually. This is God's will-- and yet God's will had no beginning, because He is one.

Sorry, I'm a panentheist. The sun will live as long as G-d continually wills it to live, to the extent that G-d wills it to live.

But I'm not sure what, if anything, that has to do with how you take a verse a ply it into a something completely different.

Be careful; you may find that your children are becoming Beliebers. What a great apostasy that would be.

Because of your capital B, I'm assuming there's some type of social reference here that I'm not getting. I'm Ultra-Orthodox, so I don't really know very much of what goes on in non-Jewish society.

+Who are the "other two", on each side of the river? Is that significant in any way?

Two other angels. I am sure that it is significant, but alas, I only have access to commentaries that provide more generalized information.

+What are the "wonders"

I assume you mean, the "end of wonders". It refers to the Redemption. The word "wonders" here is used in the same sense as Deut. 17:6, something that is elusive.

+What are "three and a half times"?

They are "times" that are three and a half. There will be one of them, than two of them together. Than a half of them.
If I knew what it was, I would be able to calculate the time of the Redemption.

+What is the strength of the/a holy nation?

I'm going to guess the ability to withstand the tribulations mentioned in verse 1.

+What is the significance of the "hidden ending", in relation to the aforementioned suffering, or wonders?

My Bible has no such term in Daniel 12. If you are referring to the general hidden-ness of the ending, then it is because we will not know when the final Redemption will come until it has come. It is hidden. The "end of wonders" is a reference to this same thing as I explained above.

+Is there any indication why Daniel could not understand what was said?

Because it is hidden. That is the reason he is told he does not understand in verse 9.
Only G-d knows when the Redemption will come.

And he said: 'Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand.'

+Is the "man" telling David that he is not currently pure enough, or wise enough to understand?

You have mistranslated and misinterpreted this verse. Verse 9 is a response to why he does not understand. Verse 10 is a statement about those that do try to calculate the end. The way you have it is a non-sequitor.

Daniel says that he doesn't understand this "time, times and half a time." And the angel answers him that it is because the understanding of this calculation is sealed. Then the angel says further:

Many will clarify and whiten and purify [the calculation mentioned above]. And the wicked will do evil [because they will think since the Messiah hasn't come yet based on their calculations, he will not come], and those wicked will not understand [that the error was in their calculations]. But the wise ones will understand [that it was merely an error in their calculations].

+Is "Go your way, Daniel" valuable information for Daniel?

It just says, "Go Daniel."
Meaning, stop trying to work out the ending, for the following reason mentioned in the verse.

'And from the time that the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the detestable thing that causes appalment set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.'

+When was the continual burnt-offering taken away?

Within the last 7 years the Temple stood.

+What is the detestable thing?

The idols that were places in the Temple by Titus.

+Are these 1290 days, years?

I wish I could tell you. But if it was hidden from Daniel, its definitely hidden from me.

'Happy is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be; and thou shalt rest, and shalt stand up to thy lot, at the end of the days.'

+Is there anyone waiting?

There are many, many, many of us that are waiting.

 

[Sleeppy]

Obviously you really do not really understand how science works. If you have any doubts about that, get a copy of "Scientific American" and look in the first part whereas scientists will argue for and against the positions of other scientists. All professional scientific publications go into peer review whereas they are cross-examined, and that process is often quite brutal.

BTW, how about several hundred books in my case as that was my field, and it might actually be more than a thousand.

You've read thousands of books and still didn't get the gist of what I was saying? Calm down; I'm not attacking you. I know a little more than you'd think.. And neither was I doubting your own study, for any valuable reason.

I hate to say this, but you don't also understand how the canon in both Christianity and Judaism eventually got put together. There were approximately 2000 "O.T."-type books to choose from and around 1000 "N.T."-type books to choose from, and the selection of each canon was quite contentious, especially in the case of the Christian canon.

And in no way does either canon explain the scientific composition of gravity.

You shouldn't have said it; the result of a retaliatory attitude- which is bias. I do actually know how these books were compiled. Stranger still- this had nothing to do with what I said to you.

Gravity is something every human experiences similarly. We've undoubtedly been very interested in "gravity" for quite some time. We've spoken about it, and written about it, for quite some time. Only recently, building on the interest of those before them and the current scientific method, have scientists determined an "accurate" mathematical representation of this force.


If I call you a "son of Man", what am I saying? I'm saying that you are standing on millions of years of evolution, and hundreds of thousands of years of human/sapien experience. -- Sapiens apparently means "wise". The little genetic makeup, and the little wisdom we have, all came from our forefathers. Simple enough?

 

[Sleeppy]

Sorry, I'm a panentheist. The sun will live as long as G-d continually wills it to live, to the extent that G-d wills it to live.

This is all pretty much off topic and just for my own curiosity.. If I may ask one last question: Are there any prophecies that directly concerned the Holocaust? -- And if not, why do you suppose some things are prophesied for Israel's benefit, but others not?

 

[Tumah]

This is all pretty much off topic and just for my own curiosity.. If I may ask one last question: Are there any prophecies that directly concerned the Holocaust? -- And if not, why do you suppose some things are prophesied for Israel's benefit, but others not?

I don't think there are any prophecies that specifically deal with the Holocaust as I believe the Holocaust like any other suffering we go through is a direct result of our free-will. If we choose to do good as a nation, we are rewarded. If we choose to do bad, we are punished. I don't think there are any prophecies that predict our choosing to do bad. On the other hand, there are a number of "warning" prophecies of what would happen should we choose to do bad. In that respect, then yes, I do think the Holocaust is a fulfillment of prophecy.

 

[Sleeppy]

I don't think there are any prophecies that specifically deal with the Holocaust as I believe the Holocaust like any other suffering we go through is a direct result of our free-will. If we choose to do good as a nation, we are rewarded. If we choose to do bad, we are punished. I don't think there are any prophecies that predict our choosing to do bad. On the other hand, there are a number of "warning" prophecies of what would happen should we choose to do bad. In that respect, then yes, I do think the Holocaust is a fulfillment of prophecy.

What would you say went wrong?

 

[Tumah]

What would you say went wrong?

Well assimilation was pretty bad. I would argue that the Jewish Enlightenment might have been a cause. But who can say for sure? I'm not a prophet.

 

[metis]

If I call you a "son of Man", what am I saying? I'm saying that you are standing on millions of years of evolution, and hundreds of thousands of years of human/sapien experience. -- Sapiens apparently means "wise". The little genetic makeup, and the little wisdom we have, all came from our forefathers. Simple enough?

Traditionally, "son of man" as found in Tanakh has been viewed as being messianic. As far as wisdom is concerned, there are various sources of that, and what we learn from previous generations obviously can be helpful, but hopefully we can progress from there. However, that does not always translate out that in every instance new beliefs and thoughts will intrinsically be correct.

The Dalai Lama has an interesting take that I have long felt, namely that if there's a discrepancy between science and the scriptures, go with science as the scriptures were written at a time when people knew far less and we often quite superstitious.

Therefore, I have long felt that science can tell us how the world turns but our religious teachings can tell us how to deal with morals and values that science doesn't typically supply-- with some exceptions.

 

[metis]

I don't think there are any prophecies that specifically deal with the Holocaust as I believe the Holocaust like any other suffering we go through is a direct result of our free-will. If we choose to do good as a nation, we are rewarded. If we choose to do bad, we are punished. I don't think there are any prophecies that predict our choosing to do bad. On the other hand, there are a number of "warning" prophecies of what would happen should we choose to do bad. In that respect, then yes, I do think the Holocaust is a fulfillment of prophecy.

I'm going to give a different tact, which is not to say you must be wrong.

To me, having God punishing innocent people puts God on the "Evil" side of the ledger, therefore I don't attribute God as being the cause of the Holocaust any more than I would have God being the cause of a miscarriage or a child that's borne seriously deformed.

There's at least one midrash that says that God did not complete creation so as we could make Earth ours, and it's maybe this incompleteness that allows bad things to happen to good people, such as with our brother Job. I don't know if that's correct, but to me it at least seems to be going in a more appropriate direction than having God punish six million of us, including roughly two million of our children, with death and for what? [rhetorical question]

 

[RabbiO]

Traditionally, "son of man" as found in Tanakh has been viewed as being messianic.

Willing to bet the matzah on that?

 

[metis]

Willing to bet the matzah on that?

Absolutely! Last year I bought 5 pounds of it, could only ingest 3 pounds, and I would have gladly bet my remaining matzah with the hope that I would lose. Give my your address, and at the end of Pesach I'll gladly take a dive with any wager we have and gladly ship you the rest.

It ain't called "the bread of affliction" for nuttin.

 

[RabbiO]

Absolutely! Last year I bought 5 pounds of it, could only ingest 3 pounds, and I would have gladly bet my remaining matzah with the hope that I would lose. Give my your address, and at the end of Pesach I'll gladly take a dive with any wager we have and gladly ship you the rest.

It ain't called "the bread of affliction" for nuttin.

There you go again denigrating the only food that is also a construction material.

 

[Tumah]

I'm going to give a different tact, which is not to say you must be wrong.

To me, having God punishing innocent people puts God on the "Evil" side of the ledger, therefore I don't attribute God as being the cause of the Holocaust any more than I would have God being the cause of a miscarriage or a child that's borne seriously deformed.

There's at least one midrash that says that God did not complete creation so as we could make Earth ours, and it's maybe this incompleteness that allows bad things to happen to good people, such as with our brother Job. I don't know if that's correct, but to me it at least seems to be going in a more appropriate direction than having God punish six million of us, including roughly two million of our children, with death and for what? [rhetorical question]

I don't really believe the problem of evil could apply to G-d, so that wouldn't be a problem for me even if you were right.

But why I think you are wrong is based on a passage in the Talmud that (is derived from the Exodus actually) says, when permission is given for the Destroyer to do his thing, not only doesn't he discriminate between the good people and the bad people, he actually starts killing the good people first. And the Talmud considers this a positive thing.

And of course, for me the miscarriage and deformity is pretty much answered with reincarnation.

 

[metis]

I don't really believe the problem of evil could apply to G-d, so that wouldn't be a problem for me even if you were right.

But why I think you are wrong is based on a passage in the Talmud that (is derived from the Exodus actually) says, when permission is given for the Destroyer to do his thing, not only doesn't he discriminate between the good people and the bad people, he actually starts killing the good people first. And the Talmud considers this a positive thing.

And of course, for me the miscarriage and deformity is pretty much answered with reincarnation.

It's one thing if God allows something like that to happen, but it's quite another, imo, if God were to have any part in causing it. If we are expected to act morally, shouldn't God also do that and even set an example for us to emulate? If we did what you think God did, there's a name for that: "genocide"-- and we hold people who even propose that in utter disdain.

Secondly, there's much that's written in Talmud about a great many things, but I certainly do not believe that it's inerrant. It's very important to us, and for VERY good reason, but I'm not going to elevate it to the point of believing it's 100% divinely inspired and inerrant.

As far as the issue of reincarnation ("gilgul") is concerned, I reserve judgement on that since it's well beyond my ability to know if it actually exists. Even if there is such a thing, I'm still not going to let God off the hook, as intentionally killing an innocent life is indefensible, imo.

Am I certain of being correct? Absolutely not.

 

[metis]

There you go again denigrating the only food that is also a construction material.

It's "food"? You sure? I've tried every trick in the book to try and make it edible, even feeding it to the birds only to see one of them have its digested system so plugged up it exploded on an attempted take-off. Ever see a 200 pound sparrow attempt to fly?

 

[Tumah]

It's one thing if God allows something like that to happen, but it's quite another, imo, if God were to have any part in causing it. If we are expected to act morally, shouldn't God also do that and even set an example for us to emulate? If we did what you think God did, there's a name for that: "genocide"-- and we hold people who even propose that in utter disdain.

Secondly, there's much that's written in Talmud about a great many things, but I certainly do not believe that it's inerrant. It's very important to us, and for VERY good reason, but I'm not going to elevate it to the point of believing it's 100% divinely inspired and inerrant.

As far as the issue of reincarnation ("gilgul") is concerned, I reserve judgement on that since it's well beyond my ability to know if it actually exists. Even if there is such a thing, I'm still not going to let God off the hook, as intentionally killing an innocent life is indefensible, imo.

Am I certain of being correct? Absolutely not.

For me, there is no such thing as G-d "letting" something happen. G-d is the one that does everything. That's Isaiah 45:7. I think, we are not expected to act morally, I don't believe there exists such a word in Jewish literature. We are expected to act G-dly. Only, the difference is that we are not able to make the same calculations that G-d does, so we have to make judgements on the information we have available, while G-d acts on the information He has available. Clearly, that will result in different actions although the trait behind both our actions might be the same. Do you see what I'm saying here?

I'm not sure this thread is the appropriate place to discuss it, but I think that within the incredible destruction of the Holocaust, there was also incredible kindness by G-d according to the what the Talmud teaches.

I'm not trying to convince you of my point of view, I'm only saying that the issues that you have are not questions for me.

 

[metis]

For me, there is no such thing as G-d "letting" something happen. G-d is the one that does everything. That's Isaiah 45:7. I think, we are not expected to act morally, I don't believe there exists such a word in Jewish literature. We are expected to act G-dly. Only, the difference is that we are not able to make the same calculations that G-d does, so we have to make judgements on the information we have available, while G-d acts on the information He has available. Clearly, that will result in different actions although the trait behind both our actions might be the same. Do you see what I'm saying here?

I'm not sure this thread is the appropriate place to discuss it, but I think that within the incredible destruction of the Holocaust, there was also incredible kindness by G-d according to the what the Talmud teaches.

I'm not trying to convince you of my point of view, I'm only saying that the issues that you have are not questions for me.

Obviously our views dealing with the issue of God are different, as well as how we look at Torah and Talmud, so I agree with you that it's time to move on. Maybe we can pick this discussion up on anther thread some day and let others chime in, hopefully all of us in a very friendly manner.

 

[2ndpillar]

I don't really believe the problem of evil could apply to G-d, so that wouldn't be a problem for me even if you were right.

But why I think you are wrong is based on a passage in the Talmud that (is derived from the Exodus actually) says, when permission is given for the Destroyer to do his thing, not only doesn't he discriminate between the good people and the bad people, he actually starts killing the good people first. And the Talmud considers this a positive thing.

And of course, for me the miscarriage and deformity is pretty much answered with reincarnation.

Dear Tumah,
Actually, with respect to Jerusalem, the destroyer is told to not discriminate with respect to woman, maidens and old men. Those that "groan over all the abominations which are committed, are supposed to be passed over by the "executioners of the city" (Ez 9:1-6)

As for good and evil, if one eats the fruit of the tree of good and evil, their eyes will be open and they will be as God, "knowing good and evil". (Gen 5-7) As for man, he was made in God's image (Gen 1:26). All he lacked was the tree of good and evil and the tree of life. If you want to eat of the tree of life, be as Enoch, and Elijah, and do the will of God, and have everlasting life.

If you are not a son of your father Adam, and do not know the difference between good and evil, I would suggest that you use the Commandments as your guide. As for the Talmud, God describes the scribes as liars. (Jer 8:8) Do you believe the prophets, or the Talmud?

Jeremiah 8:8 NAS "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.

 

[Tumah]

Dear Tumah,
Actually, with respect to Jerusalem, the destroyer is told to not discriminate with respect to woman, maidens and old men. Those that "groan over all the abominations which are committed, are supposed to be passed over by the "executioners of the city" (Ez 9:1-6)

As for good and evil, if one eats the fruit of the tree of good and evil, their eyes will be open and they will be as God, "knowing good and evil". (Gen 5-7) As for man, he was made in God's image (Gen 1:26). All he lacked was the tree of good and evil and the tree of life. If you want to eat of the tree of life, be as Enoch, and Elijah, and do the will of God, and have everlasting life.

If you are not a son of your father Adam, and do not know the difference between good and evil, I would suggest that you use the Commandments as your guide. As for the Talmud, God describes the scribes as liars. (Jer 8:8) Do you believe the prophets, or the Talmud?

Jeremiah 8:8 NAS "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.

Dear 2ndpillow
Hi! How are you? I hope everything is finding you just fine! Well, your letter found me in good health, thank G-d.

So, first I thought I should let you know that your statement regarding Ezekiel 9, actually proves what the Talmud is saying. In both the Exodus, where G-d requires that Israel put blood on their door and Ezekiel, where requires the angels to put a sign on people's heads, there needs to be a sign in order for the Destroyer not to destroy. That means, unless there is such a sign, the Destroyer has free reign to kill whomever he wants.

Please also open your Bible to Ezekiel 21:8, where G-d says He will cut off the "righteous and the wicked." Notice that the righteous is put before the wicked. This is, of course, what the Talmud teaches.

Next I will tell you why you are wrong to disagree with me regarding evil. Please open your Bible to Isaiah 45:7. Please notice, "ובורא רע" is written in the present tense, "and creates evil." Not "created". This strongly indicates that at least at the time of Isaiah, G-d was still creating evil rather than a one time occurrence in Genesis.

Like you, I am a son of Adam and I'm not quite sure where you were going there. Thankfully the Talmud provides very clear guidelines to the other 603 commandments as well, so I think I'll just keep all 613.

As for Jeremiah 8:8. Please learn how to translate Hebrew so that is reads as what it actually says. The scribes are not the one who are making the lies. The verse says, "How can you say 'We are wise and the Law of G-d is with us'? However, behold, it is for a lie [ie. in vain] he makes the quill, for a lie [ie. in vain] the Scribes." In other words, Jeremiah is telling them off for claiming to follow G-d's Law when they are really not. Because they are not following G-d's Law, they are causing that the scribes should write it for nothing.

In fact, one could argue that causing the Scribes to write G-d's word in vain is exactly what the wise NT authors did.

Ohhh. I forget your wise men say that its ok not to follow the Law. My mistake.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the thoughtful post. But have no fear, the Rabbis of the Talmud are much, much smarter than you, your teachers and your books. And they know the Bible much better too. Especially better than a lustful young man who can't differentiate between "looking nice" and "acting nice".

So you have no need to worry about me and my spiritual health. Hope my letter finds you in good health!

Sincerely,
Tumah

 

[2ndpillar]

Dear 2ndpillow
Hi! How are you? I hope everything is finding you just fine! Well, your letter found me in good health, thank G-d.

So, first I thought I should let you know that your statement regarding Ezekiel 9, actually proves what the Talmud is saying. In both the Exodus, where G-d requires that Israel put blood on their door and Ezekiel, where requires the angels to put a sign on people's heads, there needs to be a sign in order for the Destroyer not to destroy. That means, unless there is such a sign, the Destroyer has free reign to kill whomever he wants.

Please also open your Bible to Ezekiel 21:8, where G-d says He will cut off the "righteous and the wicked." Notice that the righteous is put before the wicked. This is, of course, what the Talmud teaches.

Next I will tell you why you are wrong to disagree with me regarding evil. Please open your Bible to Isaiah 45:7. Please notice, "ובורא רע" is written in the present tense, "and creates evil." Not "created". This strongly indicates that at least at the time of Isaiah, G-d was still creating evil rather than a one time occurrence in Genesis.

Like you, I am a son of Adam and I'm not quite sure where you were going there. Thankfully the Talmud provides very clear guidelines to the other 603 commandments as well, so I think I'll just keep all 613.

As for Jeremiah 8:8. Please learn how to translate Hebrew so that is reads as what it actually says. The scribes are not the one who are making the lies. The verse says, "How can you say 'We are wise and the Law of G-d is with us'? However, behold, it is for a lie [ie. in vain] he makes the quill, for a lie [ie. in vain] the Scribes." In other words, Jeremiah is telling them off for claiming to follow G-d's Law when they are really not. Because they are not following G-d's Law, they are causing that the scribes should write it for nothing.

In fact, one could argue that causing the Scribes to write G-d's word in vain is exactly what the wise NT authors did.

Ohhh. I forget your wise men say that its ok not to follow the Law. My mistake.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the thoughtful post. But have no fear, the Rabbis of the Talmud are much, much smarter than you, your teachers and your books. And they know the Bible much better too. Especially better than a lustful young man who can't differentiate between "looking nice" and "acting nice".

So you have no need to worry about me and my spiritual health. Hope my letter finds you in good health!

Sincerely,
Tumah

Tumah,
As per your "judges" of the Talmud, God through Isaiah gave a message.

Isaiah 1:26 NAS "Then I will restore your judges as at the first, And your counselors as at the beginning ; After that you will be called the city of righteousness, A faithful city."

Isaiah 40:23 NAS He it is who reduces rulers to nothing, Who makes the judges of the earth meaningless.

As per the wisdom of your wise judges, God through Isaiah says:

Isaiah 29:14 NAS Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous ; And the wisdom of their wise men will perish, And the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed."

As for the NT authors, for the most part, 2/3 of it, was written by a self professed prophet of the tribe of Benjamin, and his associates. His message is that of his own, and given the position of that of coming from God, whereas it is of men. Something on the order of the Talmud with respect to God's Word.

As for the destroyers of Ezekiel, they do not have free reign to kill who they want, they must kill all without the mark, "including old men, young men, maidens, little children and women".

Ez 9:5, "do not let your eye have pity, and do not spare"

As for Is 45:7, God created both good and evil, for that was the Law that creation was based upon. You cannot have good without evil, sweet without sour, or positive without negative. Yet one is to choose good over evil.

And no, I am not concerned about your spiritual well being, men will be judged by a judge "who will not judge by what his eyes see, nor make a decision by what his ears hear;, but with righteousness" (Is 11:3) Like you, I just like to have a lively discourse.