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Michelle Carter: guilty... protected speech?

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You make some distinctions that I'm finding thought provoking, thanks. Let me try it on a different situation:

The Pentagon has done studies and has reported that climate change is a strategic threat to our country. Given that, is it possible that congressman who knowingly obfuscate or deny climate change could be held treasonous?

Many on this thread have held that Michelle Carter should be punished for her deeds, so shouldn't congressmen that are risking displacing and putting at risk millions of people also be punished?
Hopefully my response here will not deter @It Aint Necessarily So, who has made an important point about the First Amendment.

Anyway, I don't know on what basis anyone can claim that that it's possible for someone else to "knowingly obfuscate or deny climate change". But, if that were possible, it's still just an opinion in the market place of ideas. Michelle Carter's texts encouraging Conrad Roy to kill himself are not opinions. "Get back in the truck" is not an opinion on any topic being discussed by the public.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hopefully my response here will not deter @It Aint Necessarily So, who has made an important point about the First Amendment.

Anyway, I don't know on what basis anyone can claim that that it's possible for someone else to "knowingly obfuscate or deny climate change". But, if that were possible, it's still just an opinion in the market place of ideas. Michelle Carter's texts encouraging Conrad Roy to kill himself are not opinions. "Get back in the truck" is not an opinion on any topic being discussed by the public.

Deniers like to couch climate change as a matter of opinion. Whether you choose to think so or not, what would your opinion be if climate change was a fact the way radiation poisoning is a fact? For example, what would your opinion be of a politician who advocated for allowing radioactive waste into public drinking water?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Deniers like to couch climate change as a matter of opinion. Whether you choose to think so or not, what would your opinion be if climate change was a fact the way radiation poisoning is a fact?
Quote someone who denies climate change.

For example, what would your opinion be of a politician who advocated for allowing radioactive waste into public drinking water?
That would be expression of an opinion, politically suicidal but entirely protected by the First Amendment.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Quote someone who denies climate change.

That would be expression of an opinion, politically suicidal but entirely protected by the First Amendment.

The judge declared Ms. Carter "reckless", and that is exactly what these congressmen are, reckless.

Watch this video starting at about 3:00:


As for the radioactivity advocating congressman - what if he's making public policy? I'm not talking about opinions, I'm talking about policy makers.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Pentagon has done studies and has reported that climate change is a strategic threat to our country. Given that, is it possible that congressman who knowingly obfuscate or deny climate change could be held treasonous?

Many on this thread have held that Michelle Carter should be punished for her deeds, so shouldn't congressmen that are risking displacing and putting at risk millions of people also be punished?

The congressperson to whom you refer is not committing a crime, in my opinion, and should not be punished by the state. He or she might suffer consequences, but they should be limited to contradiction by those with alternate opinions, and possibly at the ballot box.

If I may digress from the topic for a moment:

It's interesting that you brought up the matter of climate denial in this context, where I just commented that Ms. Carter needed to be removed from the streets because she appears to be sociopathic and malicious, a dangerous combination. We generally assume that climate deniers are either scientifically illiterate or willing to damage the earth for profit, but not malicious. I'm beginning to wonder whether that is really the case, given how easy it is to see that our present course is virtually guaranteed to result in catastrophe and the loss of a lot of human and non-human life. After awhile, one begins to consider whether the imminent global warming is due only to greed and ignorance, or whether it isn't actually the goal.

Who both could and would do such a thing, and for what reason? How about a consortium of extremely wealthy Western entities that see emerging nations like India, China, Brazil and Mexico as a threat to their economic domination? What would famine and drought do to such countries? Remember, it is the poor that will be impacted the most. Presumably, you and I can always find food and water. The effect on us would be an increase in inconvenience and expense at worst - something that affects the uberwealthy even less than us. Such people might actually find thinning the impoverished herd strategically advantageous.

Is it possible to do such a thing for that reason? I don't see why not. We assume that the petrochemical industry does it for profit. If global warming were profitable in any other way, I don't see why a second incentive couldn't be in play.

Are there people that would commit such a heinous act for profit. Do we really need to dwell on that one?

Why propose such an idea? Does this hypothesis add anything to our understanding of this phenomenon, or explain anything not already explained by the presumption that all of this is the result of the petrochemical tail wagging the global dog?

I think so. For starters, when did this lone industry become so powerful that it could determine national policy in an area that appears to be against the interest of so much other money and power, not to mention ordinary people? This industry was forced to remove lead from its product a few decades back, The cigarette manufacturers were eventually reined in. Why is this issue different? Why are these people being allowed to scorch the earth? I'm suggesting that they may have allies that are even more powerful.

It's getting harder and harder for me to accept that stupidity and the profits of one industry that is indifferent to the environmental concerns of others are the entire story here. These people have grandchildren. Presumably, they aren't monsters. I'm proposing that we begin to consider that monsters are involved anyway - sociopathic, malicious monsters like Michelle Carter but in suits. How much would it satisfy such people that see themselves as masters of the universe to play god on a planetary scale and reconfigure the face of the earth?
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
There is a mega-huge difference between that and telling someone trying to kill themselves to finish the job and that you want to listen.

Their son was told by her to finish killing himself. He got out, called her, and she told him to get back in. Why should they not blame him.


Or is this simply another example of not allowing a person to be responsible for their own actions? This guy killed himself, the girl did not kill him (no matter what she said). He, and he alone, is responsible for his demise. Suppose someone on RF posted that they are suicidal and plan to end it all. Suppose I don't know, nor care, about this person (that's still allowed, you know) and I wish him luck in his endeavor, should I be charged with a crime if this person succeeds?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Who both could and would do such a thing, and for what reason? How about a consortium of extremely wealthy Western entities that see emerging nations like India, China, Brazil and Mexico as a threat to their economic domination? What would famine and drought do to such countries? Remember, it is the poor that will be impacted the most. Presumably, you and I can always find food and water. The effect on us would be an increase in inconvenience and expense at worst - something that affects the uberwealthy even less than us. Such people might actually find thinning the impoverished herd strategically advantageous.

Is it possible to do such a thing for that reason?

I don't doubt for a minute that such a horrific strategy is thinkable for some. I'd be somewhat amazed that such a consortium could be so well organized, but who knows? Setting aside the barbarity of the idea, it does seem incredibly risky for the perps. It's easy to imagine uncontrollable, Mad-Max kinds of outcomes.

Back to the legality... I asked about the radioactive waste advocating congressman. To me there must be legislation so horrible that it could be criminal, no?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't doubt for a minute that such a horrific strategy is thinkable for some. I'd be somewhat amazed that such a consortium could be so well organized, but who knows? Setting aside the barbarity of the idea, it does seem incredibly risky for the perps. It's easy to imagine uncontrollable, Mad-Max kinds of outcomes.

I can't see how it would be any harder for such people if they exist than it is for the ones we currently consider to be the lone interest orchestrating the climate denial that we see. All one need do is access the existing disinformation pipeline and lobby the appropriate elected officials.

I also don't see much risk for the would-be perps.

I think that we have all of the elements necessary to consider the idea a possibility - people willing to do such a thing if they had a reason to do so, people who also have the ability to do it if willing. All that's lacking is a motive, and I think I suggested two that would appeal to such people: destabilizing emerging countries and playing god on a planetary scale - and need for such an idea to explain something not easily explained by a more parsimonious view. The say to never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity, but I'm finding it harder to believe that this is just greed and shortsightedness.

An alternative explanation for the indifference being shown is an apocalyptic eschatology - there's no problem for the future because there is no future.

In the end, it doesn't much matter who is to blame or what their motives are. It's pretty clear that global warming will continue at least until we reach a tipping point that actually affects lives, and probably beyond. Are you aware of the issue on Tangier Island in the Chesapeake Bay off the coast of mainland Virginia? It's a relatively flat1.3 sq mi island that is home to about 450 people, mostly crabbers and their families, mostly rump voters (87%), that is being inundated with seawater due to rising sea levels and associated erosion. See here and/or here for more.

They've reached out to Trump to build them a wall, and Trump called their mayor to reassure him that their island would be there for centuries to come, and they seem to have accepted that. They still love and trust him. The point is that no evidence of any kind can impact their thinking. If they typify the denier demographic, then nothing will cause them to finally see the light, even tipping point calamities.

Back to the legality... I asked about the radioactive waste advocating congressman. To me there must be legislation so horrible that it could be criminal, no?

I don't consider that criminal, but I have only a lay person's understanding of such matters. It's morally reprehensible, but such people were chosen by voters to make those choices, and the voters know or should know what kind of people they are electing. I watched the Daily Show video you presented. Dumb as stumps. But that's what the people apparently want, and we don't hold the voters criminally liable for their dereliction of civic duty, i.e., uninformed voting.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
In regards to the climate change idea, do you not see the difference between advocating the policy of not doing as much, and badgering someone into illegally polluting? Which may have legal repercussions.

If she were politically advocating for allowing suicide or for making speech that drives to suicide legal, she wouldn't be facing jail time. She purposely drove an emotionally damaged man to suicide.

I asked about the radioactive waste advocating congressman. To me there must be legislation so horrible that it could be criminal, no?
Presuming it doesn't violate a constitutional right, how could legislation be criminal?
 
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Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The judge declared Ms. Carter "reckless", and that is exactly what these congressmen are, reckless.

Watch this video starting at about 3:00:
I didn't hear where any member of Congress was pestering anyone to kill him/herself.

As for the radioactivity advocating congressman - what if he's making public policy?
Individual members of Congress do not get to make public policy. Laws are enacted by majority vote.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This guy killed himself, the girl did not kill him (no matter what she said). He, and he alone, is responsible for his demise.
No one is an island. All manner of acts that people do are in response to other people's words.
Suppose someone on RF posted that they are suicidal and plan to end it all. Suppose I don't know, nor care, about this person (that's still allowed, you know) and I wish him luck in his endeavor, should I be charged with a crime if this person succeeds?
That isn't even vaguely analogous to the circumstance of Carter's crime.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Or is this simply another example of not allowing a person to be responsible for their own actions?
It is holding someone responsible for their own actions.
should I be charged with a crime if this person succeeds?
Yes. Like it or not, words have power. If your words lead to someone's death, you should face the consequences of your actions. If I steal your TV, you aren't blamed for not having it secure enough and I would be punished. If someone is negligent of a dependent, the dependent isn't blamed for not having chosen a better person to have taken care of them. She actively played a role in the man's death, and she must be held responsible.
If she were politically advocating for allowing suicide or for making speech that drives to suicide legal, she wouldn't be facing jail time. She purposely drove an emotionally damaged man to suicide.
Exactly. It's not like she was joking or sarcastic about it. She even wanted to listen to happen! To think she is not responsible is nothing more than denying that our actions (including the things we say) have an effect on other people.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Yes. Like it or not, words have power. If your words lead to someone's death, you should face the consequences of your actions.

So if a congressman says repeatedly not to worry about sea levels rising, should his words have consequences when people lose their homes to the seas?

(This is an open question, SW, not just for you)
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
It is holding someone responsible for their own actions.

Yes. Like it or not, words have power. If your words lead to someone's death, you should face the consequences of your actions. If I steal your TV, you aren't blamed for not having it secure enough and I would be punished. If someone is negligent of a dependent, the dependent isn't blamed for not having chosen a better person to have taken care of them. She actively played a role in the man's death, and she must be held responsible.

Exactly. It's not like she was joking or sarcastic about it. She even wanted to listen to happen! To think she is not responsible is nothing more than denying that our actions (including the things we say) have an effect on other people.

How much responsibility is this on the boyfriend, in your opinion? Curious...
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
So if a congressman says repeatedly not to worry about sea levels rising, should his words have consequences when people lose their homes to the seas?
I'm no lawyer, but it sounds like criminal negligence to me.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
How much responsibility is this on the boyfriend, in your opinion? Curious...
He wasn't in a sound or healthy state of mind. Yes, he did kill himself, but we don't know why. Regardless of why, however, he told him to keep at it, get back in his death chamber, and asked to listen. She encouraged him and lead him to the grave. He was in a very vulnerable position, and her reckless behavior caused his death.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
He wasn't in a sound or healthy state of mind. Yes, he did kill himself, but we don't know why. Regardless of why, however, he told him to keep at it, get back in his death chamber, and asked to listen. She encouraged him and lead him to the grave. He was in a very vulnerable position, and her reckless behavior caused his death.

Ok, what if she wasn't in a good state of mind?
 
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