Michelle Obama in Kamala-zoo, MI

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I sincerely wish that every RF member would find a YouTube recording of former First Lady Michelle Obama's speech at a rally in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Stirring and -- in my personal view -- immensely important and compelling. Her's is the very best exposition of the plight faced by women facing gynecological medical crises I've ever heard. Stunningly good, I say!

I've just heard it, and now headed into Kamala's speech, but it's a PBS live-feed which I won't link because it probably won't be available once it's over. But I'm certain there will be links easy to find on YouTube.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Her's is the very best exposition of the plight faced by women facing gynecological medical crises I've ever heard.

You mean the ability to kill unborn children whenever a woman wants, yes?

Abortion is not healthcare.

 

[The Hammer]

You mean the ability to kill unborn children whenever a woman wants, yes?

Abortion is not healthcare.

That's a creative twist on things. It absolutely is healthcare. Just because you're morally and biblically opposed to it, doesn't mean we take that right from others. Not all of us have the same moral hang ups around abortion.

 

[Regiomontanus]

That's a creative twist on things. It absolutely is healthcare. Just because you're morally and biblically opposed to it, doesn't mean we take that right from others. Not all of us have the same moral hang ups around abortion.

I appreciate your opinion. It seems to have majority support. But, IMHO, intentionally killing babies is, and will always be, wrong.

 

[The Hammer]

I appreciate your opinion. It seems to have majority support. But, IMHO, intentionally killing babies is, and will always be, wrong.

Then don't do it?

 

[Regiomontanus]

Then don't do it?

I never would. I hope you would not either!

 

[Wandering Monk]

I never would. I hope you would not either!

Do you make exceptions for the life of the mother? Who decides whether that condition is met, the doctor or a politician?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I appreciate your opinion. It seems to have majority support. But, IMHO, intentionally killing babies is, and will always be, wrong.

I find the destruction of musical instruments to be abhorrent.

While I don't believe in anything like a literal soul, the most compelling argument for me that souls might exist is this strongly-held feeling I have that a musical instrument is imbued with a certain character from being played: a bit of the person "rubs off" on the instrument, giving it a quasi-personhood of its own, and in being a mixture of all the people who have played it, its personhood is distinct from all of them.

Now... do I try to legislate so that people who don't share this feeling are forced to behave as if they do? Of course not. I have more common decency and common sense than to impose my subjective feelings on anyone else.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Do you make exceptions for the life of the mother? Who decides whether that condition is met, the doctor or a politician?

If it came down to that, I would save the mother. In that case (which is pretty rare), we are no longer talking about killing the unborn because a baby would be 'inconvenient'.

 

[Regiomontanus]

While I don't believe in anything like a literal soul,

Therefore, you have no problem killing people. I get it.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You mean the ability to kill unborn children whenever a woman wants, yes?

Abortion is not healthcare.

And what about a woman who is suffering a miscarriage, about to bleed out? Or sepsis has set in? Or any number of other horrifying things -- that doctors in many states now will not even TRY to treat, but will let her get so close to death (to be within the letter of the law) that her survival is pretty much negligible?

Any of that matter to you? Would it matter if it was your wife, or your daughter?

THESE THINGS ARE HAPPENING NOW!

 

[Wandering Monk]

If it came down to that, I would save the mother. In that case (which is pretty rare), we are no longer talking about killing the unborn because a baby would be 'inconvenient'.

Do you know that up to 20% of pregnancies end with a miscarriage? God doesn't seem very pro-life in those cases, does He?

About 10% to 20% of known pregnancies end in miscarriage. But the actual number is likely higher. This is because many miscarriages happen early on, before people realize they're pregnant​

​

Miscarriage - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Do you know that up to 20% of pregnancies end with a miscarriage? God doesn't seem very pro-life in those cases, does He?

About 10% to 20% of known pregnancies end in miscarriage. But the actual number is likely higher. This is because many miscarriages happen early on, before people realize they're pregnant​

​

Miscarriage - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

I have seen deeper medical investigations that suggest the rate of successful fertilization of an ovum resulting in no child brought to term can be quite a bit higher than that.

 

[Regiomontanus]

And what about a woman who is suffering a miscarriage, about to bleed out? Or sepsis has set in? Or any number of other horrifying things -- that doctors in many states now will not even TRY to treat, but will let her get so close to death (to be within the letter of the law) that her survival is pretty much negligible?

Any of that matter to you? Would it matter if it was your wife, or your daughter?

THESE THINGS ARE HAPPENING NOW!

Relax, brother. The situations you describe are absolutely a question of healthcare. But a woman getting pregnant and deciding she 'does not want it', and so wants to kill it - that what I am talking about.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Do you know that up to 20% of pregnancies end with a miscarriage? God doesn't seem very pro-life in those cases, does He?

About 10% to 20% of known pregnancies end in miscarriage. But the actual number is likely higher. This is because many miscarriages happen early on, before people realize they're pregnant​

​

Miscarriage - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

Miscarriage? What is that?



You seem to have a very cartoonish view of God (not a being but the source of being) and must be mistaking me for someone else. That fact that '**** happens' is not at all relevant to what we are talking about here.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Relax, brother. The situations you describe are absolutely a question of healthcare. But a woman getting pregnant and deciding she 'does not want it', and so wants to kill it - that what I am talking about.

And yet, even then, we are fallible humans. I'm no fan of abortion as contraception, far from it, but I cannot completely dismiss a girl's (you say "woman" but many are really just girls, immature, vulnerable when they think they're in love and might lose their beau) right to end what turned out to be a mistake. Yes, we have to deal with our errors -- but what price are you going to demand?

It's so easy, when you think only of "a baby," to forget that there are more than one life involved here, and sometimes more than just two. There is no shortage at all of stories of young love resulting in an unwanted pregnancy which turn into stories of much greater ills down the line -- forced marriage, hate, family disintegration, even murder.

You are religious, and judgement appears to come naturally to you. I am not -- and I'm far less eager to make judgements about other people's lives.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You mean the ability to kill unborn children whenever a woman wants, yes?

Abortion is not healthcare.

It never was healthcare in the first place. Abortion is in its own category.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Therefore, you have no problem killing people. I get it.

I have no problem with what you've subjectively deemed to be killing people.

Have the humility to recognize the difference between your opinion and objective fact.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It never was healthcare in the first place. Abortion is in its own category.

Of course it's healthcare. Sometimes it's even life-saving care.

 

[Regiomontanus]

It never was healthcare in the first place. Abortion is in its own category.

But the D party keeps arguing the equivalence between the two, every day.

I hope and pray that we can move beyond this culture of death.