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Might makes Right

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
Is rape right? Murder? Extortion? Child Abuse? Bullying?

No. There is no such thing as right. All of these things happen regardless of your notions of right and wrong.

Is rape okay when it happens in prison to a child molester? If not, then we should stop putting them in prison because it is going to happen regardless. Just a small example of society condoning rape.

I don't like people who engage in any of the above. I will act according to what I like. So will you. So will they. At least, we will when we actually have the power to pull it off, anyway. You can't stop a violent predator without violence (not in the moment at least). If you are incapable of violence, then you'll be at the predator's mercy. Be capable, and act according to your wishes. Then you'll be making the world a better place instead of just wishing it was. Be mighty, or what good is righteousness?

Are you telling me your thought process doesn't get that far?

My thought processes go well beyond good and evil.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
No. There is no such thing as right. All of these things happen regardless of your notions of right and wrong.

Is rape okay when it happens in prison to a child molester? If not, then we should stop putting them in prison because it is going to happen regardless. Just a small example of society condoning rape.

I don't like people who engage in any of the above. I will act according to what I like. So will you. So will they. At least, we will when we actually have the power to pull it off, anyway. You can't stop a violent predator without violence (not in the moment at least). If you are incapable of violence, then you'll be at the predator's mercy. Be capable, and act according to your wishes. Then you'll be making the world a better place instead of just wishing it was. Be mighty, or what good is righteousness?



My thought processes go well beyond good and evil.

'There is no such thing as right', but 'you'll be making the world a better place?'
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
As you see it, yes. I didn't mean it literally. I meant from your perspective.

1) Why ignore the point of my initial post? Do you know what that was?

Contrary to what you understand, your worldview is short-sighted, Doom.

2) Why do you act according to your likes? Why not act according to your dislikes? Or someone else's likes?
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
1) Why ignore the point of my initial post? Do you know what that was?

Your point seems to be that some things are inherently wrong since we all generally agree about them. Did I get that incorrect?

Contrary to what you understand, your worldview is short-sighted, Doom.

It's meant to be honest. I'm no moral compass, but I have power. Everyone does. I don't see people enacting their will through rightness, only through power.

2) Why do you act according to your likes? Why not act according to your dislikes? Or someone else's likes?

I do those, as well. Typically to serve a larger goal but also because I have no choice. The power is on the other side of the table. I don't get to act as I wish unless I can actually act as I wish in actuality. My personal notions of what should or shouldn't happen are irrelevant to what does happen unless I have the power to enact what I want to happen. What does happen is a function of where the power lies.

As an example, despite the fact that I do not condone rape (not even to punish child molesters) it still happens. I don't have the power to stop it. Someone who commits the act may be internally conflicted about the right or wrong of such actions but this doesn't stop them. What enables them to do it? I submit to you that it is power. When that same person comes to be punished for their crime, do we simply explain how their actions are wrong and they willingly submit to punishment? Not at all. We seize them against their will, up to and including deadly force if deemed necessary and force punishment on them. Again, power decides what happens, right or wrong.

This is not to say that people ought to rape each other when they can 'get away with it' that's ignoring the implications of the act. It's a good thing most of us agree that rape should be punished or it just wouldn't be. It didn't used to be! It's habitually ignored in prison (and elsewhere) to this very day, in fact. Is it because rape isn't wrong in prison? Or is it because those with the power to stop it don't think it should be stopped?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Your point seems to be that some things are inherently wrong since we all generally agree about them. Did I get that incorrect?

Yes. I see why that might be inferred. But, the point was simply that might doesn't determine right or wrong, it facilitates.


It's meant to be honest. I'm no moral compass, but I have power. Everyone does. I don't see people enacting their will through rightness, only through power.



I do those, as well. Typically to serve a larger goal but also because I have no choice. The power is on the other side of the table. I don't get to act as I wish unless I can actually act as I wish in actuality. My personal notions of what should or shouldn't happen are irrelevant to what does happen unless I have the power to enact what I want to happen. What does happen is a function of where the power lies.

As an example, despite the fact that I do not condone rape (not even to punish child molesters) it still happens. I don't have the power to stop it. Someone who commits the act may be internally conflicted about the right or wrong of such actions but this doesn't stop them. What enables them to do it? I submit to you that it is power. When that same person comes to be punished for their crime, do we simply explain how their actions are wrong and they willingly submit to punishment? Not at all. We seize them against their will, up to and including deadly force if deemed necessary and force punishment on them. Again, power decides what happens, right or wrong.

This is not to say that people ought to rape each other when they can 'get away with it' that's ignoring the implications of the act. It's a good thing most of us agree that rape should be punished or it just wouldn't be. It didn't used to be! It's habitually ignored in prison (and elsewhere) to this very day, in fact. Is it because rape isn't wrong in prison? Or is it because those with the power to stop it don't think it should be stopped?

Have you noticed that I'm a fatalist? I agree with your point, that we only act according to what is physically possible. I also agree that there are social norms dictating right from wrong, and that these designations are constantly changing.

The question I want you to consider is 'why'? Why do we designate social norms? Why do you have likes and dislikes? These are not spontaneous, as you know. They are a function of our evolution, in relation to the Earth. Why did we develop a sense for self-preservation? Why did we evolve to be empathetic? Etc.

I agree with you in that sense. Right and wrong are subjective, depending on what we are, and what we are subject to. They depend on natural, universal laws or intentions preceding us.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
Yes. I see why that might be inferred. But, the point was simply that might doesn't determine right or wrong, it facilitates.

I see, and I suppose I would have to agree on that. The only point I would make is we often decide what is right or wrong after the fact (when power has already dictated what will happen) or long before in abstraction as we are now (when power only exists in words). When tested, our moral compass is bent by time. We don't always have time to consider the relative righteousness of our actions. Afterwards, many are prone to rationalization and even spread such in effort to gain validation. Of course, many are also prone to deep self-reflection, honesty and humility after the fact and even spread that in an effort to gain validation. Both gaining the justification of their peers in one way or another. When you have the justification of your peers, what you end up with is power even if that isn't your actual goal.

Have you noticed that I'm a fatalist? I agree with your point, that we only act according to what is physically possible. I also agree that there are social norms dictating right from wrong, and that these designations are constantly changing.

Fair enough. Also must agree. I would add though, that we are the ones responsible for that change on an individual level even as it is manifest in society. Social norms change because a person has an idea and spreads it vigorously. What was previously considered right can become wrong when that happens and vice versa. One might say wrongs are righted if one felt cheeky.

The question I want you to consider is 'why'? Why do we designate social norms? Why do you have likes and dislikes? These are not spontaneous, as you know. They are a function of our evolution, in relation to the Earth. Why did we develop a sense for self-preservation? Why did we evolve to be empathetic? Etc.

I would say the reason is because it works to the advantage of the species in terms of continued survival in every case if we are talking about evolution. To paraphrase a common saying, "There is might in numbers." Social norms, likes and dislikes (at least in this context), self-preservation, empathy these all serve to bring humans together in a mutually beneficial manner. In other words, its easier to get what you want when you convince someone else to want it too. Some things are impossible without this.

I agree with you in that sense. Right and wrong are subjective, depending on what we are, and what we are subject to. They depend on natural, universal laws or intentions preceding us.

I don't know about universal laws. I refrain from bestowing that on anything unless you just mean it figuratively. As a social norm would be 'universal' in the sense that practically everyone agrees behavior X shouldn't be done. Not in the literal sense as in some power or force that binds right and wrong in the cosmos such that we are either definitely right or wrong, that I don't believe in at all.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
You know, @Thief , this thread has me wondering if you believe in God's existence after all.

Going by your posts here, it would appear that you believe in a higher power, but not in a God.
there is only ONE......Almighty

the intent is to examine perspectives when the participants realize....
rejection or denial won't stand well in the Face of Someone who cannot be...
circumvented, pushed aside, subdued, tricked or cheated
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
there is only ONE......Almighty

the intent is to examine perspectives when the participants realize....
rejection or denial won't stand well in the Face of Someone who cannot be...
circumvented, pushed aside, subdued, tricked or cheated

How about flattered? Should I try that (again)?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
there is only ONE......Almighty

the intent is to examine perspectives when the participants realize....
rejection or denial won't stand well in the Face of Someone who cannot be...
circumvented, pushed aside, subdued, tricked or cheated
Someone that is not even in the running to be considered a God by me, from what you describe.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Someone that is not even in the running to be considered a God by me, from what you describe.
well then.....if running about (circumventing) is on the list.....

there maybe be many gods
and we might be subject to any that are greater than ourselves

but among them would be an Almighty
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
How about curiosity? Might the almighty allow some of that? Even now perhaps?
from the beginning.....

I have long posted the garden event was all about in stalling curiosity

the 'forbidden fruit' was a test
but not for obdeience

Man needs to be a creature.....curious.....even if death is pending

without curiosity ...Man would shy from learning
most important....items leaning to life after death
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
So, being curious I might even try something inadvisable 'just to see' how it would turn out. Do you suppose the almighty might forgive such curiosity?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
So, being curious I might even try something inadvisable 'just to see' how it would turn out. Do you suppose the almighty might forgive such curiosity?
I strongly suspect......that garden trick was required
Man NEEDS to be that creature curious ...willing to die.....just looking for an answer

we can't see how life in the hereafter is going to turn out
but we have what it takes to....strongly suspect

we can develop anticipation

there are 7billion+, copies of a learning device wandering on this planet

why choose of mediocrity?......when the best is at hand
 
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