Militant Atheism

[Nakosis]

Buddhism is a worthless moral reference for atheists. Morality is 100% relative and subjective no matter which religion or what dogma you subscribe to.

Is it a problem specifically with Buddhism, or is any moral reference worthless for Atheists?

I think there is a argument for Buddhism but I'm trying to understand your response.

 

[Nakosis]

Just for reference,

Here are the ethical guidelines from the eight-fold path of Buddhism.

Right Speech

Abstain from false speech; do not tell lies or deceive.
Do not slander others or speak in a way that causes disharmony or enmity.
Abstain from rude, impolite or abusive language.
Do not indulge in idle talk or gossip.

Right Action

Refrain from taking the life of any being
Refrain from taking what is not freely given
Refrain from inappropriate sexual conduct
Refrain from lying
Refrain from divisive speech
Refrain from using harsh words
Refrain from idle talk (gossip)
Refrain from coveting other’s possessions and positions
Refrain from resenting the good fortune of others
Refrain from holding a closed mind about things one doesn’t fully understand

Right Livelihood

Not killing
Not stealing
Not misusing sex
Not lying
Not abusing intoxicants

The goal of the the eight-fold path is to end one's suffering. Seems a straight forward goal if one finds themselves in a life of suffering.

 

[Bunyip]

Is it a problem specifically with Buddhism, or is any moral reference worthless for Atheists?

I think there is a argument for Buddhism but I'm trying to understand your response.

Why would atheists need to refer to any religious or philosophical tradition to inform their morality?
As Socrates observed millenia ago - morals and ethics can be drawn from reason and knowledge alone.

 

[Shad]

Establishing a moral landscape without reference to God is something that is older than monotheism itself. The atheist need not resort to nihilism, humanism or any other ism - he/she can (like Socrates) divine a moral and ethical, landscape from knowledge and reason alone. Most believers tend to interpret their theology through the lens of their existing moral compass, rather than derive their moral compass from their faith.

I was just pointing out that the jump from theist to atheist creates an issues with morals since it is heavily invested into God and theology for theists. Often people seems like they are lost once the authority driven moral scope has been tossed aside.

 

[Bunyip]

I was just pointing out that the jump from theist to atheist creates an issues with morals since it is heavily invested into God and theology for theists. Often people seems like they are lost once the authority driven moral scope has been tossed aside.

I don't see it as a significant problem. Believers tend to interpret their theologies in order to fit their existing biases, ethics and morals anyway. If an atheist thought for one second that a moral and ethical landscape drawn from reason and knowledge were inferior to that drawn from some ancient superstition - I doubt they would be atheist.

Personally I think that the moral worldview of threat, punishment and fear posited by many faiths hardly counts as morality anyway. If a person behaves well out of fear of eternal punishment - that is not morality, it is obedience.

 

[Bunyip]

Just for reference,

Here are the ethical guidelines from the eight-fold path of Buddhism.

Right Speech

Abstain from false speech; do not tell lies or deceive.
Do not slander others or speak in a way that causes disharmony or enmity.
Abstain from rude, impolite or abusive language.
Do not indulge in idle talk or gossip.

Right Action

Refrain from taking the life of any being
Refrain from taking what is not freely given
Refrain from inappropriate sexual conduct
Refrain from lying
Refrain from divisive speech
Refrain from using harsh words
Refrain from idle talk (gossip)
Refrain from coveting other’s possessions and positions
Refrain from resenting the good fortune of others
Refrain from holding a closed mind about things one doesn’t fully understand

Right Livelihood

Not killing
Not stealing
Not misusing sex
Not lying
Not abusing intoxicants

The goal of the the eight-fold path is to end one's suffering. Seems a straight forward goal if one finds themselves in a life of suffering.

Are there any of those guidelines that could not be informed without any reference to deities, religions or faiths whatsoever? Not as far as I can see.

 

[Shad]

I don't see it as a significant problem. Believers tend to interpret their theologies in order to fit their existing biases, ethics and morals anyway. If an atheist thought for one second that a moral and ethical landscape drawn from reason and knowledge were inferior to that drawn from some ancient superstition - I doubt they would be atheist.

It is a problem when people do not use reason and knowledge for the shift from theism to atheism. It is being lefts to one's own devices which may not have an reasoning at all.

Personally I think that the moral worldview of threat, punishment and fear posited by many faiths hardly counts as morality anyway. If a person behaves well out of fear of eternal punishment - that is not morality, it is obedience.

People often confuse the law dynamics of religion for morality.

 

[Bunyip]

It is a problem when people do not use reason and knowledge for the shift from theism to atheism. It is being lefts to one's own devices which may not have an reasoning at all.

Well we would need a specific example in order to discuss that meaningfully - do you have one?

People often confuse the law dynamics of religion for morality.

Indeed they do. They also tend to attribute values, ethics and morals that came long before their faith to their faith.

 

[Shad]

Well we would need a specific example in order to discuss that meaningfully - do you have one?

Nihilism for one.

Indeed they do. They also tend to attribute values, ethics and morals that came long before their faith to their faith.

Assimilation of preexisting systems and idea is nothing new nor laying claims to originality. This goes back to the authority basis as circular reasoning.

 

[Bunyip]

Nihilism for one.

Sorry, I meant an example of a person left to their own devices without any reasoning at all after losing faith. Nihilism is simply a different subject.

Assimilation of preexisting systems and idea is nothing new nor laying claims to originality. This goes back to the authority basis as circular reasoning.

Sure.

 

[Politesse]

We don't have a word for militant anti witchism.

They're usually called the Burning Times, or if you want to be polite, the Witch Hunts, or if you want to be even more polite (because it is inaccurate) the Witch Trials. And it very much remains a problem in the world.

 

[Shad]

Sorry, I meant an example of a person left to their own devices without any reasoning at all after losing faith.

Take an example of people leaving a religion due to horrible events in their lives or interaction with believers. These are emotional reaction but is fallacious grounds for atheism.

Sorry, I thought you meant examples of worldviews which can have a negative impact vs saying humanism.

Nihilism is simply a different subject. Sure.

See above. Cross-wires.

 

[Bunyip]

Take an example of people leaving a religion due to horrible events in their lives or interaction with believers. These are emotional reaction but is fallacious grounds for atheism.

Ok great, that is what I meant - can you identify an example? A person who has done that.

Sorry, I thought you meant examples of worldviews which can have a negative impact vs saying humanism.




See above. Cross-wires.

No worries.

 

[serp777]

Is it a problem specifically with Buddhism, or is any moral reference worthless for Atheists?

I think there is a argument for Buddhism but I'm trying to understand your response.

Any moral reference mainly. I only talked about buddhism since it was brought up.

 

[Nakosis]

Any moral reference mainly. I only talked about buddhism since it was brought up.

Yes, I'm pretty much a moral nihilist myself but I see it as folks are free to set their own goals and purpose. So I'm just saying if someone is looking for a moral "compass" Buddhism is a pretty good one IMO for the secular.

 

[Cephus]

They're usually called the Burning Times, or if you want to be polite, the Witch Hunts, or if you want to be even more polite (because it is inaccurate) the Witch Trials. And it very much remains a problem in the world.

Not usually in the western world, but there was a recent case in India where 5 women were chased down and beaten to death because the mob thought they were witches. This is not remotely uncommon in the third world.

 

[Nakosis]

Why would atheists need to refer to any religious or philosophical tradition to inform their morality?
As Socrates observed millenia ago - morals and ethics can be drawn from reason and knowledge alone.

I don't see it being about needs but rather goals. Buddhism deals with the issue of suffering or impermanence. It accepts the truth that everything changes. Money doesn't last, power doesn't last, youth doesn't last. If one is materialist, their happiness can depend on these things. The goal here is simply to give one greater control over their happiness.

Whereas I see there exists limits to reason and knowledge, happiness is available for anyone and being a cynic, happiness is the ultimate goal in life.

 

[Willamena]

Just curious about what it be...

"All that science can only do is to discover the sophistries put in place by God. Apparently, the ultimate goal of atheism is to negate all moral standards and to make humanity a little closer to animals."

http://www.newzimbabwe.com/columns-24021-Atheism+Blind+men+arguing+about+sunset/columns.aspx

Excellent article, thanks. The "militant" atheist is the one who strives to make real changes in the world to the effect of minimizing the influence of religion and belief in god or gods.

 

[Nakosis]

Excellent article, thanks. The "militant" atheist is the one who strives to make real changes in the world to the effect of minimizing the influence of religion and belief in god or gods.

That's fine, it just seems calling most atheists militant is a bit of hyperbole but I suppose what is meant is anti-theist.

 

[outhouse]

The "militant" atheist is the one who strives to make real changes in the world to the effect of minimizing the influence of religion and belief in god or gods.

Wow, blatantly wrong, and the most basic levels.

Many theist purposely teach academics, fighting the fanaticism and fundamentalism in their own religion.

YOUR reply has nothing to do with atheism, and EVERYTHING to do with what is right in academia.