Minister vs Lay Led

[Trey of Diamonds]

Do you think it's important for a UU church to have a minister or is it better to be lay led?

 

[3.14]

not important since im not a member

 

[Storm]

Do you think it's important for a UU church to have a minister or is it better to be lay led?

I voted somewhat important, because I think it's good to have someone to attend to a minister's other duties. However, lay-led services are just as good.

not important since im not a member

Then why are you answering?

 

[3.14]

if i were a member i would have wanted so guide but since im not there is no need for one

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Our congregation is looking for a part time minister. We've been trying to grow and we hope bringing in a minister on a part time basis will help to attrack new members. Also, I've been to both kinds and I think it helps to have a minister around.

 

[cheddarsox]

I don't think there is one answer for this.

Every fellowship and every minister is unique. Sometimes bringing in a minister can bring the people together with a renewed sense of mission and purpose. Sometimes it can cause them to grow lazy and dependent. Some ministers see their role as facilitator others as leader.

I've been through three ministers in a UU church and each was a totally different experience and style.

I've been part of lay led spiritual groups, and had that work well, and not work at all.

So...I think if the fellowship feels it is ready to take that step, then it probably is, but be very deliberate about what you want from your minister, very clear about what/why/how you see that role played out, very honest with yourselves and the potential hirees.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I don't think there is one answer for this.

Every fellowship and every minister is unique. Sometimes bringing in a minister can bring the people together with a renewed sense of mission and purpose. Sometimes it can cause them to grow lazy and dependent. Some ministers see their role as facilitator others as leader.

I've been through three ministers in a UU church and each was a totally different experience and style.

I've been part of lay led spiritual groups, and had that work well, and not work at all.

So...I think if the fellowship feels it is ready to take that step, then it probably is, but be very deliberate about what you want from your minister, very clear about what/why/how you see that role played out, very honest with yourselves and the potential hirees.

Very good advice, thanks!

 

[lilithu]

I am torn. On the one hand, I think the minister is very important, not just for services, which are actually a small part of of what a parish minister does. For example, one of the first things that comes to mind is who does pastoral care if there is no minister? Ministers are trained for such things.

Otoh, I am at this moment unhappy with my own congregation because I feel our ministers are overly-emphasized. The minister is not the congregation. In fact, ministers come and go. The congregation endures.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Do you think sometimes it's "the grass is always greener" syndrome?

 

[lilithu]

Do you think sometimes it's "the grass is always greener" syndrome?

I don't think, "Gee, why can't my church be more like that other church." I think, "My church is great, except for this one area."

For me the problem is more about striking the right balance between having a leader that can inspire and help organize, and empowering the congregation to act. I believe in the power of clergy. For me, I would not be happy in an all lay-led congregation. But I would hope that in UU congregations, it would not be the minister as shepherd, leading a flock of sheep. And I would hope that for certain decisions that affect the congregation, there would be a process by which the minister has to listen to input from the congregation.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I don't think, "Gee, why can't my church be more like that other church." I think, "My church is great, except for this one area."

Ooops sorry, I should have clarified, do you think other peoples views on minister or no minister is "the grass is always greener" syndrome? This isn't something I see you personally thinking.

 

[lilithu]

Ooops sorry, I should have clarified, do you think other peoples views on minister or no minister is "the grass is always greener" syndrome? This isn't something I see you personally thinking.

No, I don't think it's just "the grass is always greener." I agree with cheddarsox. For some congregations, they would be better off with a minister, and for others they would not. And it also depends on the personality of the minister.


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Hey! 10,000 posts! I'm glad it happened in the UU forum.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Hey! 10,000 posts! I'm glad it happened in the UU forum.

Woo hoo! Congrats!

 

[applewuud]

Having a properly trained religious professional is about as important to a church as having a professional contractor is to building a home. Yes, you can do it yourself, if you're willing to put the time and effort into it, and study, read, and set aside time.

Unfortunately, most people don't have the time to stay abreast of the latest techniques...either in framing a building, or taking care of people in times of transition or pain. After a person has spent two years in post-graduate study in seminary, then additional years of internship and preliminary fellowship, they have had a level of experience and exposure to issues that most laypeople don't have. That doesn't mean they're "special" in the way that a priest has been annointed in a traditional church, but it does mean they have a level of focus that laypeople can't have most of the time.

That is contingent upon the right kind of ministerial education, however. The UU Ministers Association does a very good "quality-control" job, but the roles and expectations of UU ministers are all over the map and causing a great deal of pain and burnout. We need to put some energy into making this better.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Wow, that was very well said Applewuud, thanks!

Right now we are a Family Sized Church who want to move to a Pastoral Size Church. Has anyone else seen the In-Between Church slide show?

http://www.cfn.org.za/download_files/members/the_inbetween_church_a.ppt

I love to hear people's thoughts on making the transition.

 

[cheddarsox]

I'm really torn about continuing in this discussion, because technically I am not a UU, and because I've been through the transition Trey is talking about, and in the situation Lilithu is talking about, and have more to say on the subject than I probably should...


I keep thinking "but it's NOT my church"...but it WAS.

Growing pains. There will be growing pains, and you might be tempted to get the sort of minister who is a go getter, because you'll be thinking "this will be so great, all they can do for us", relieved that all that won't be on the congregants themeslves, that someone will take the load off of them. But then the minister comes and they are "all that!" and more...and there is resentment. And maybe the minister is even a bit larger than life and becomes the focus of the congregation...rather than a facilitator, and some people feel marginalized, and not heard, because now someone with a degree, and experience and charisma is there and people are handing all the "power" to them, and stop taking responsibility for their own spiritual growth and the health of the congregation.

And people say "well, we WANTED a minister, now we have to be supportive" and may find themselves "supporting" things they don't really believe in...

yeah, growing pains.

 

[lilithu]

I'm really torn about continuing in this discussion, because technically I am not a UU, and because I've been through the transition Trey is talking about, and in the situation Lilithu is talking about, and have more to say on the subject than I probably should...


I keep thinking "but it's NOT my church"...but it WAS.

My feeling is that the kind of person who would have these internal deliberations with him/herself is unlikely to be the kind of person who would say something out of line. You've put in your time, so to speak, and thus have the experience to speak on this.

Growing pains. There will be growing pains, and you might be tempted to get the sort of minister who is a go getter, because you'll be thinking "this will be so great, all they can do for us", relieved that all that won't be on the congregants themeslves, that someone will take the load off of them. But then the minister comes and they are "all that!" and more...and there is resentment. And maybe the minister is even a bit larger than life and becomes the focus of the congregation...rather than a facilitator, and some people feel marginalized, and not heard, because now someone with a degree, and experience and charisma is there and people are handing all the "power" to them, and stop taking responsibility for their own spiritual growth and the health of the congregation.

And people say "well, we WANTED a minister, now we have to be supportive" and may find themselves "supporting" things they don't really believe in...

yeah, growing pains.

It is very hard to fault my minister. Under him, we've quadrupled in size. And I don't for a second doubt his commitment to the church. All I know is that I don't feel like the church is "mine" anymore, and I'm not the only one who feels that way. Perhaps it's no one's fault at all - just the outcome of growth. With a large congregation, it seems inevitable that the cohesion would depend more on the minister than in a small congregation where everyone knows each other.

He once preached a sermon, citing Kierkegaard, about the difference between thinking of the preacher as the "performer" and the congregation as the "audience" on the one hand, and thinking of the congregation as the "performer" and God as the "audience" on the other hand. The latter is how church used to feel to me; the former is how it feels now. The irony to me is that it is this church and this minister who first showed me how good it could be.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

My feeling is that the kind of person who would have these internal deliberations with him/herself is unlikely to be the kind of person who would say something out of line. You've put in your time, so to speak, and thus have the experience to speak on this.

I agree with Lilithu whole heartedly, please feel free to speak. Your experiences can only add value to the conversation.

It is very hard to fault my minister. Under him, we've quadrupled in size. And I don't for a second doubt his commitment to the church. All I know is that I don't feel like the church is "mine" anymore, and I'm not the only one who feels that way. Perhaps it's no one's fault at all - just the outcome of growth. With a large congregation, it seems inevitable that the cohesion would depend more on the minister than in a small congregation where everyone knows each other.

Do you feel a congregation must grow to avoid stagnation? There are members of our congregation who resist growth but others who may abandon the church if we appear stagnant.

 

[lilithu]

Do you feel a congregation must grow to avoid stagnation? There are members of our congregation who resist growth but others who may abandon the church if we appear stagnant.

I do not believe in growth for the sake of growth. I don't think that serves anyone. But I do think that if we are truly welcoming to everyone, then we have to be prepared to make the place hospitable if they come. That is, if the church grows for whatever reason, then we ought not resist it.

Another reason I don't think we should resist growth is because it's selfish. For those of us who have found a spiritual home in UU, we must see something here worthwhile. On what basis can we keep it to ourselves? I'm not saying we should try to convince people to join, but I am very much in favor of telling people about us - just being public as UUs - in case they want to join. Can't tell you how many people who have said, "If only I had known about UU before." And so if we let people know, the result is that our congregations will have to grow.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I do not believe in growth for the sake of growth.

But without growth you have stagnation and eventual decay. They best you can do and still survive is limit the numbers so that you maintain a certian number. But as you said, that would be selfish.