lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
In biology, growth for the sake of growth is called cancer.
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Minister vs Lay Led
- Thread starter Trey of Diamonds
- Start date
Trey of Diamonds
Well-Known Member
In biology, growth for the sake of growth is called cancer.
True, but a body is constantly growing, replacing dead cells with new living ones. But, I think we get each other's point.
cheddarsox
Member
Over the years I've belonged to many types of churches and spiritual fellowships, of all sizes, faiths, etc. I've done lay led and ones with ministers. There has been no one right and perfect combination of elements.
I think that growth that happens because a congregation is vibrant and healthy is awesome, and will survive the growing pains. Yes, some people will leave when things get too big. That is OK, that is what they need to do. It is ok that some people need a smaller family of faith. It's hard to see a church outgrow you, but it can happen, for all the best reasons.
It's hard to lose the role one once had in a congregation as it changes size/form. But it's also exhilerating and freeing not to have to be the one who does everything all the time, because there are now lots of warm bodies around.
Maybe it's even good for there to be a minister who has such a presence and personality, that they become someone the congregation can get behind. Maybe my bitterness is in having the church go in a direction that made me personally feel uncomfortable, but maybe it was still an ok direction for the church to go. It can be hard to sort through that.
The church has had many discussions about the transition from one size to another, from "family" to "pastoral" to "program" style. We've watched videos about different personality types and 'problems' that can arise and how do deal with them. All very interesting and often humorous. They are good issues to think about.
I think any group that uses democratic process will run into the issue of "majority rules" vs. doing what is best...because they are NOT always the same thing. Sometimes people make decisions that do not uphold the principles or mission of the church, sometimes the "vote" goes against what the congregation claims to hold dear, and those can be difficult confrontations, but they MUST not be avoided.
I was "shut down" several times with the response. "We heard what you have to say, we know what your opinion is, but we want to do something else." and they would not hear that it was not merely MY opinion, but what our behavior covenant, principles or mission stated was the congregations opinion. Sometimes a church does not want to follow it's own process, and that is when real trouble begins. When decisions start to be made in "mysterious" ways, rather than according to an agreed upon process..when people who have invested much good will, hours of time and lots of energy arriving at a committee decision find that their work is ignored in lieu of what another feels is expedient.
And what to do with those who "lose" even when proper procedure and process is followed? You will lose people, and some of them will leave embittered. And there is no way to prevent that entirely. And how will you treat them, and yourselves when that happens?
And you will gain people, and many of those people won't have a clue what UU is about and the history of the congregation and you have to find a way to integrate them into the system without letting them dilute it to a point where it becomes "let's just make everyone happy".
People will come in saying "I'm so glad you're not like my LAST church"...only to find that in many ways you are, because you are made up of people with all those same needs and fears, and hopes and desires, but that you are covenanting to something that is good and worthwhile, and that makes it worth the effort.
It's really tricky to keep a sense of self and purpose amidst some of those changes. It's tempting to want to keep the momentum, sometimes at the expense of substance, justice, and reason.
anyway...some thoughts
I think that growth that happens because a congregation is vibrant and healthy is awesome, and will survive the growing pains. Yes, some people will leave when things get too big. That is OK, that is what they need to do. It is ok that some people need a smaller family of faith. It's hard to see a church outgrow you, but it can happen, for all the best reasons.
It's hard to lose the role one once had in a congregation as it changes size/form. But it's also exhilerating and freeing not to have to be the one who does everything all the time, because there are now lots of warm bodies around.
Maybe it's even good for there to be a minister who has such a presence and personality, that they become someone the congregation can get behind. Maybe my bitterness is in having the church go in a direction that made me personally feel uncomfortable, but maybe it was still an ok direction for the church to go. It can be hard to sort through that.
The church has had many discussions about the transition from one size to another, from "family" to "pastoral" to "program" style. We've watched videos about different personality types and 'problems' that can arise and how do deal with them. All very interesting and often humorous. They are good issues to think about.
I think any group that uses democratic process will run into the issue of "majority rules" vs. doing what is best...because they are NOT always the same thing. Sometimes people make decisions that do not uphold the principles or mission of the church, sometimes the "vote" goes against what the congregation claims to hold dear, and those can be difficult confrontations, but they MUST not be avoided.
I was "shut down" several times with the response. "We heard what you have to say, we know what your opinion is, but we want to do something else." and they would not hear that it was not merely MY opinion, but what our behavior covenant, principles or mission stated was the congregations opinion. Sometimes a church does not want to follow it's own process, and that is when real trouble begins. When decisions start to be made in "mysterious" ways, rather than according to an agreed upon process..when people who have invested much good will, hours of time and lots of energy arriving at a committee decision find that their work is ignored in lieu of what another feels is expedient.
And what to do with those who "lose" even when proper procedure and process is followed? You will lose people, and some of them will leave embittered. And there is no way to prevent that entirely. And how will you treat them, and yourselves when that happens?
And you will gain people, and many of those people won't have a clue what UU is about and the history of the congregation and you have to find a way to integrate them into the system without letting them dilute it to a point where it becomes "let's just make everyone happy".
People will come in saying "I'm so glad you're not like my LAST church"...only to find that in many ways you are, because you are made up of people with all those same needs and fears, and hopes and desires, but that you are covenanting to something that is good and worthwhile, and that makes it worth the effort.
It's really tricky to keep a sense of self and purpose amidst some of those changes. It's tempting to want to keep the momentum, sometimes at the expense of substance, justice, and reason.
anyway...some thoughts
Trey of Diamonds
Well-Known Member
Very good thoughts! Don't you dare consider remaining silent again.
Wolfscout1
Spiritual Warrior.
After some 25 years of not attending a "Organized Church".. the wife and I decided we needed some social/ community based interaction. I began searching on places.. eventually finding Unitarian Universalist.. and even more to my shock was there is a small church within 5 miles of us. So, we attended church that Sunday. I was impressed.. it was a weekend where the lay leader did the sermon. They had a discussion on the sermon, something I had never seen done in a church in my lifetime. I was content with the proceedings. I went home and spent two weeks reading online about UU and went back to the Church that next weekend ( they meet 1st and 3rd weekends.) We again enjoyed the sermon from their Minister this time. There was more discussion and more candle lighting with discussions. I felt comfortable as did the wife.
The next Church session we went to I was more into participating in the discussion that they had on the "inner perception of You". I felt in my zone at the time. The lay leader was very good at what he did and had put much thought into it. The discussion flowed nicely.
The next Church meeting I signed the book.. the wife is still considering.. ( she moves slower than I do).
I have glad to have found this church and become a part of UU and looking forward to doing more with various other aspects as I find what I can do there.
~ Wolf
The next Church session we went to I was more into participating in the discussion that they had on the "inner perception of You". I felt in my zone at the time. The lay leader was very good at what he did and had put much thought into it. The discussion flowed nicely.
The next Church meeting I signed the book.. the wife is still considering.. ( she moves slower than I do).
I have glad to have found this church and become a part of UU and looking forward to doing more with various other aspects as I find what I can do there.
~ Wolf
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
Welcome. :namaste
Wolfscout1
Spiritual Warrior.
Thank you, lilith.