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Miracles ?
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Eliot Wild
Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
Will there ever be a miracle, some verifiable, conclusive proof that God intervenes in the affairs of man?
I will say, if the Cleveland Browns make the NFL playoffs, we must all concede that we've witnessed intervention by a divine presence.
I will say, if the Cleveland Browns make the NFL playoffs, we must all concede that we've witnessed intervention by a divine presence.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
I don't know - people seem to have pretty low standards for what they call a miracle.
(Eliot not being one of them).
Scarlett Wampus
psychonaut
The reason the number of recorded miracles has diminished so completely is because of Science. We're all being punished for worshiping Science instead of God. When we stop, the miracles will come back. [tongue-in-cheek]
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
Eliot Wild said:
Dude, start him off with something reasonable! Peace on earth...healing all the world's sick...don't ask for the impossible right off the bat!
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
My favorite line about miracles was in the movie "Watchmen". Dr. Manhattan says "Miracles by their very definition cannot exist. Only that which can happen does happen."
Hmm this kind of doesn't make sense to me. If science can prove something then it isnt a miracle. For example if i recovered from a common cold, i wouldn't say my God it's a miracle, where as if i grew a limb back (if i was missing one) then that would be classed as a miracle, because science couldn't explain it, but say science found logical proof to why the limb grew back, it wouldn't be a miracle ?
How often must this be re-hashed? In order for this question to have any kind of meaning, we have to first discuss definitions. What is a miracle? More importantly (to me, as an epistemologist), what is "proof"?
If we take "proof" in the mathematical sense that defines the term as the result of deductive reasoning from agreed-upon axioms via agreed-upon rules of logic, then it is inherently either impossible or useless to prove ANYTHING which happens in the empirical world, outside of pure logic-space. You cannot deduce world happenings from mathematical axioms, nobody has yet figured out how to axiomatize physics, and nobody can agree upon metaphysical axioms that would (feasibly) lead to such "proofs." Indeed, it can be argued (and has been) that a "religion" is essentially nothing more than an attempt at an axiom set for reality, and that apologetics is the pursuit of philosophizing from those axioms.
If we take "proof" in a less rigorous sense and mean it simply as "empirical evidence," then what in the HELL does "proof of a miracle" mean? As I understand it, a miracle is usually taken to mean an event that happens outside of the normal laws of nature, and empirical evidence relies on understood laws of nature. Indeed, it seems to me that "proof of a miracle" would demand EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE THAT THERE IS NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE DRIVING THE PHENOMENON, and that's just silly.
Now, with that understood, it seems to me as though any unexplained event could be (not incorrectly) interpreted as a miracle. If a miracle is simply that which science does not explain, then there are thousands of miracles happening immediately around one daily. There are very basic natural phenomena we simply don't understand yet. Weather, on the whole, is still largely not understood. We can only predict weather seven days out because it's such a powerfully chaotic system and we just don't get everything that goes into it. So does a rainstorm on a day when sunshine was predicted count as a miracle? I would say that, in OP's eyes, probably not, but I think the muddiness of the point is demonstrated.
OP, I think what needs to be understood is that science's phenomena are, in and of themselves, entirely miraculous. If we assume that logic binds the universe (which is assumable, but by no means guaranteed), then WHY does it bind the universe? What about the system that we call logic CAUSES its binding nature? Why, indeed, does anything exist at all, and why is it bound at all? These are all, arguably, quite miraculous, if you just understand miracles to occur at a more fundamental level than your basic "HOLY CRAP HOMEBOY JUST TURNED WATER INTO WINE" level.
"There are two ways to live one's life: you can either live as though nothing is a miracle, or as though everything is."
Levite
Higher and Higher
Miracles are basically like magic. Both are expressions of will (God's or people's, respectively) manifested in such a way as to shift the balance of probability, making something improbable (even perhaps improbable to the point of near-impossibility, since technically, nothing is by definition 100% impossible) become not only probable, but actual.
If one is inclined to disbelieve in the divine or supernatural, there will always be convenient ways to write off miracles or magic as coincidence, or natural phenomena, or rare physics interactions, or what have you.
If a religious person is spending their time trying to prove to skeptics what is or is not a miracle, or how God can or can't be proven to exist, or stuff like that, they are wasting their time. That's not what religion is supposed to be for, and in any case, skeptics are the fundamentalists of the atheist world.
So some people don't believe in miracles, or the supernatural, or the divine? Whatever. It's no skin off my nose.
Mahacandra
Great Moon
Isn't it 100% impossible to both exist and not exist at the same time, in the same sense? Or to be both blue and red at the same time, all over, from every perspective? Aristotle's Law of Identity, something has to be what it is at a particular point and in a particular way, and can't be something else.
Levite
Higher and Higher
I was thinking less in terms of Aristotle and more in terms of quantum physics.
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
Every time I raise my eyelids and perceive is a miracle.
Levite
Higher and Higher
See, I think that's also a valid point....
islam means peace
Member
Can you please tell what is the defination of miracle in your mind?
Noaidi
slow walker
You write tongue-in-cheek, but there is actually a lot of truth in your statement. I like it.
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
stephenw said:
Apparently, a miracle should be defined as "an ordinary, commonplace occurrence". Ok, then i guess I believe in miracles, too. Hold on a sec. I have to lift a cheek and fart out some more miracle.
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
LOL
Indeed. I believe it's true that we all see the world as we ourselves are. Fart away friend.
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
Dan4reason
Facts not Faith
A miracle is something that cannot happen by the laws of nature. For example, if after a prayer, a Christian grew a limb back, that would be a miracle. Things that already exist in nature that we cannot fully explain with science are NOT miracles, they are simply things that we cannot explain yet.
I was once taking a computer programming class and one of my programs failed to run. Even my instructor could not explain why and to this date, I simply do not know what went wrong with the program. That does not mean that this was magic or a miracle.