miracles

[gnostic]

Not being a follower of scientism, I consider anecdotal evidence and other wisdom traditions that I respect beyond just science.

Anecdotal evidence is not really at all reliable and unbiased.

And you talk of empirical evidence as being “limited”, but so is this anecdotal evidence, which I find it is even more limited.

As to wisdom traditions. Well that is even more limited, and can be just as biased.

What if there were 2 or 3 different traditions, that don’t agree with other? How do you determine which one is right, correct or true?

Do you any faction can agree with one another?

And if you were to choose which is right, how do we determined if you are not biased, or have agenda or hidden motive for your choice.

Wisdom tradition is highly subjective, and let alone, circumstantial.

Empirical evidences is far more objective, and the best way to mitigate any decision on personal preference, desire and biased agendas.

What you are requesting, to use anecdotal evidence or wisdom traditions, have nothing to do with science, they are more in the realms of philosophy than in science.

I get you want people to have an open mind, but if having an open mind means without questioning the claims of any paranormal evidence, then it has nothing to do with science.

 

[George-ananda]

Anecdotal evidence is not really at all reliable and unbiased.

And you talk of empirical evidence as being “limited”, but so is this anecdotal evidence, which I find it is even more limited.

As to wisdom traditions. Well that is even more limited, and can be just as biased.

What if there were 2 or 3 different traditions, that don’t agree with other? How do you determine which one is right, correct or true?

Do you any faction can agree with one another?

And if you were to choose which is right, how do we determined if you are not biased, or have agenda or hidden motive for your choice.

Wisdom tradition is highly subjective, and let alone, circumstantial.

Empirical evidences is far more objective, and the best way to mitigate any decision on personal preference, desire and biased agendas.

What you are requesting, to use anecdotal evidence or wisdom traditions, have nothing to do with science, they are more in the realms of philosophy than in science.

I get you want people to have an open mind, but if having an open mind means without questioning the claims of any paranormal evidence, then it has nothing to do with science.

I consider everything in forming my worldview and use my reason to determine what I believe is most reasonable to believe.

I think we are impoverished if we only consider the things science can test. Science is a great thing but is also limited at this time.

 

[gnostic]

I consider everything in forming my worldview and use my reason to determine what I believe is most reasonable to believe.

I didn't say science can answer everything, test everything.

I saying a lot of the things that you claim to be "scientific", isn't "scientific" at all.

And parapsychology isn't science, it is pseudoscience, and have failed to empirical verified, and yet YOU were the one who claimed:

"Well, I have no doubts as to the existence of miracles (paranormal events). The cumulative evidence to me is overwhelming."
​

You were the one who brought up the miracles of Sai Baba. And YOU were the one who brought up Erlendur Haraldsson's book on Sai Baba.

Clearly the evidences are not overwhelming, now that you have backslide "anecdotal evidences" and "wisdom traditions" in your next reply, none of which are overwhelming evidences.

You claim that these "overwhelming evidences" are so "overwhelming" that you have "no doubt" these miracles are true.

Clearly, your standard of scientific evidence is not really scientific at all. So why did you bring up science in the first place, if your so-called evidences amount to nothing more than your personal worldview, which is basically personal belief?

 

[joelr]

I actually do understand how science works. I also believe that science is limited in what it can know about the spiritual at this time. Not being a follower of scientism, I consider anecdotal evidence and other wisdom traditions that I respect beyond just science.

No there are only 2 kinds of miracles.
One is all of the supernatural happenings that always fall under anecdotal evidence because under scrutiny they cannot, ever produce measurable results. If you take out all of the cases of straight up lies, people being gullible, illusions/hallucinations then you have nothing left. Zero. The James Randi foundation never gave out the 1 million dollar prize. ESP has never been demonstrated but people have manipulated statistics and promoted false results. Or like Dean Radin likes to do, shows bull**** stats from "meta-studies" that are always highly debunkable.

The other is already built in to the laws of physics so it isn't a miracle.
Like if someone has a terminal disease that has 100% fatalities. What that 100% might mean is 99.999999%, which would mean 1 in 99 million. However, if ~99,000000 people get the disease then there might be a case where someone survives.
To them it would seem a miracle. But when you ponder on what Sam Harris says about 7 million children under the age of 7 dying every year, you realize some deity didn't decide to reach out and give you super healing powers for a day but you just got lucky.

Unless you feel like for some reason you are suddenly more important than a 6 year old getting to live out a reasonably full life?

Quantum mechanics teaches us that things happen in a probabilistic way so from time to time very unusual things HAVE to happen.

As to people being gullible, it's 2018 and how many billion people still take a religion as literal truth? Even if one religion was actually true there would still be over 1 BILLION people who were taught wrong information.

If you are not religious the you realize there are like over 3-4 billion people who still believe nonsense. Billions! But those internet stories of an Indian man who can take his leg off and put it back on still impress you?

 

[George-ananda]

No there are only 2 kinds of miracles.
One is all of the supernatural happenings that always fall under anecdotal evidence because under scrutiny they cannot, ever produce measurable results. If you take out all of the cases of straight up lies, people being gullible, illusions/hallucinations then you have nothing left. Zero. The James Randi foundation never gave out the 1 million dollar prize. ESP has never been demonstrated but people have manipulated statistics and promoted false results. Or like Dean Radin likes to do, shows bull**** stats from "meta-studies" that are always highly debunkable.

Well, I could not disagree more.

I believe a case just from so-called anecdotal evidence can be made to show paranormal events do occur beyond reasonable doubt. I and a billion other carefully analyzing people have had their experiences.

I also believe telepathy, remote viewing and gifted mediums have been statistically shown to exist by carefully controlled experiments with fantastic odds against chance.

I believe the physical realm of our physical senses and instruments is interpenetrated by subtler realms/planes/dimensions. And when those realms cause physical events, there we have our so-called paranormal.

But when you ponder on what Sam Harris says about 7 million children under the age of 7 dying every year, you realize some deity didn't decide to reach out and give you super healing powers for a day but you just got lucky.

Unless you feel like for some reason you are suddenly more important than a 6 year old getting to live out a reasonably full life?

Here you are switching from miracles to theology. Sam Harris and clan just rail against Abrahamic Biblical theology (which I am not a follower of) and that is a completely different subject to the paranormal anyway.

Quantum mechanics teaches us that things happen in a probabilistic way so from time to time very unusual things HAVE to happen.

As to people being gullible, it's 2018 and how many billion people still take a religion as literal truth? Even if one religion was actually true there would still be over 1 BILLION people who were taught wrong information.

If you are not religious the you realize there are like over 3-4 billion people who still believe nonsense. Billions! But those internet stories of an Indian man who can take his leg off and put it back on still impress you?

Yes, some people are gullible I'm sure. But I argue the case for the paranormal/miracles can be made by carefully thinking people.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The cumulative evidence to me is overwhelming. I believe so-called miracles to be actually natural but involving forces and entities beyond the physical affecting the physical. There is no violation of natural law but the application

I like this. Better than how I try to put it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe that to be false. I believe there is overwhelming anecdotal evidence to command belief. Also, I believe there is scientific evidence showing fantastic odds against chance in controlled scientific experiments in the fields of telepathy, remote viewing and gifted mediumship as examples.

Scientific evidence? The closest is alternative medicine, working with energies, and psychological studies and practices. Personal testimonies, opinions, syncronicity, confirmed bias vis culture and community, confirmed bias linking external events to influence the internal.

Science as in medical and laws of nature, there is no evidence for that. Religion and beliefs have their own individual criteria that judge one religion as healthy for one person and not for the next. Religious experiences arent scientific but holistic. Excluding violent history, at the core is peoples holistic relationship and interpretation of their place in the world.

Science doesnt address study of religious beliefs unless its akin to say, hollucinations that make people hear voices that tell them to hurt others. Then there is a problem. But its not addressing the nature of the symptoms but their affects.

Religion focuses in both and make claims to know both. Science doesnt make those claims of certainty.

They are two totally different animals.

Can you give an non holistic nor alternative example of evidence for the supernatural.

 

[George-ananda]

Scientific evidence? The closest is alternative medicine, working with energies, and psychological studies and practices. Personal testimonies, opinions, syncronicity, confirmed bias vis culture and community, confirmed bias linking external events to influence the internal.

Science as in medical and laws of nature, there is no evidence for that. Religion and beliefs have their own individual criteria that judge one religion as healthy for one person and not for the next. Religious experiences arent scientific but holistic. Excluding violent history, at the core is peoples holistic relationship and interpretation of their place in the world.

Science doesnt address study of religious beliefs unless its akin to say, hollucinations that make people hear voices that tell them to hurt others. Then there is a problem. But its not addressing the nature of the symptoms but their affects.

Religion focuses in both and make claims to know both. Science doesnt make those claims of certainty.

They are two totally different animals.

Can you give an non holistic nor alternative example of evidence for the supernatural.

I was talking about controlled scientific experiments into telepathy, remote viewing and gifted mediumship as examples. For example the ability to communicate telepathically can be tested by controlled experiments.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I was talking about controlled scientific experiments into telepathy, remote viewing and gifted mediumship as examples. For example the ability to communicate telepathically can be tested by controlled experiments.

I never thought of that as a science. Maybe alternative studies or holistic medicine. Though, its contraversal in the medical field. A lot of it is "said" to be theory. What type of evidence is there in those studies?

Unless its your personal interpretation of evidence, what experiments work to where its ragarded as an actual science moreso than religious believe and alternative medicine practices like Reiki?

 

[metis]

As one who has not believed in "miracles" for a couple of decades, something happened to me that I described before here at RF that has me wondering whether something like a "spiritual connection" is possible. I say this because something happened to me that just cannot be explained by coincidence, and it deals with a woman who I dated over 50 years ago who changed my life whereas I've had no contact with her since then. It's the weirdest experience I've even had in my life, and it has gone on for almost three years now, so she's changed my life again. Sometimes I wonder if I'm "losing it" because it's so surreal, but it really has helped me in other ways.

So, I'm gonna take a "pass" on the issue of miracles.