Mis-translated Bible terms infavor of meat eating?

[ratikala]

namaskaram harmonious ji

Just so you know... Kosher meat ISN'T mass produced.

if you are still arround , ...please can you tell me if Kosher just covers the method by which an animal is slaughtered , or dose it cover the way it is bread and kept throughout its life ?

could you please elaborate on the rules relating to Kosher in this respect , ...

many thanks , ...

 

[Tumah]

As a long-standing member of the Hare Krishna Movement, I have learnt by some of my Hindu Vaishnav scholars that certain Bible terms are mis-translated:

Indeed, My ulterior motive is to get nations to turn swords to Plowshares ---this is done by ultimately having a "Change of Heart" as to the reality of fostering Flesh eating [meat in German is 'Fleisch']. Flesh eating begets violence and non-compassion and the illogic fantasy of obtaining peace in an enviroment of butcher-based society.

Vegetarianism as a sublime means of eating, is borne of ordhodox yoga disiplines ---therefore the higher goal of "a-himsa" (No-violence) ergo, "shanti" (peace) can be achieved.

Please review the Greek & hebrew terms, and kindly, verify or deny their veracity:

I'd like to cut and paste the whole Bible text, but for here are the Chapter/Verse of mention of NONE-FLESH EATING:

Old Testiment RE-CAP:

gen 1:29 [vs. Gen 9:3 ~immediately after recovery from the flood].

gen 9:4-5

num 11:33

Isaiah 1:11,15

Isaiah 66.3

Leviticus 3:17



Regarding, "Thou shall not Kill" ---reference:

The hebrew words are: 'Lo tirtzach' ---according to Dr Reuben Alcalay's 'Complete Hebrew/English Dictionary', 'tirtzach' refers to any kind of killing.

The verses you've brought above don't seem to have anything to do with each other.
Gen. 9:3 is permission to eat anything that moves. 9:4 is the caveat that it can't be moving anymore by the time you get ready to dig in. What are you looking for after that?

"Tirtzach" means "murder" in the second person imperfect. The Hebrew root "RTzḤ" means to murder. I'm not aware of any instances when it is used in conjunction with an animal. The roots used for animal slaughter are "ShḤT" and "ZVḤ".

 

[Etritonakin]

In Eden, they were to be vegetarian -if not vegan. Even the animals did not eat flesh.

After the flood, God allowed all things -including animals flesh -to be eaten.

With the Mosaic laws, God allowed only some types of animal flesh to be eaten.

It is very clear that animal flesh was considered clean by those laws -which even make specific mention of the various animals.

However, in the kingdom of God on earth -yet future -even the nature of the animals will be changed so that they do not eat meat.
It it specifically stated that the lion will eat straw like the ox.
While it is not specifically stated, it is unlikely that the humans who repopulate the earth during the thousand years after Christ's return will kill and eat animals.

The food issue has generally followed man's spiritual state. No meat, all meat, some meat and then none again.

Gen 1: 29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so

Then.....

Gen 9: 3Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 4But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat

Then.....

Deut 14:4 These are the beasts which ye shall eat: the ox, the sheep, and the goat, 5The hart, and the roebuck, and the fallow deer, and the wild goat, and the pygarg, and the wild ox, and the chamois. 6And every beast that parteth the hoof, and cleaveth the cleft into two claws, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, that ye shall eat. 7Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you. 8And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

9These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat: 10And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.

11Of all clean birds ye shall eat. 12But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, 13And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind, 14And every raven after his kind, 15And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind, 16The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan, 17And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant, 18And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat. 19And every creeping thing that flieth is unclean unto you: they shall not be eaten. 20But of all clean fowls ye may eat.

21Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk


Lev 26:21 If then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. 22'I will let loose among you the beasts of the field, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted.

Then......

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," says the LORD.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As a long-standing member of the Hare Krishna Movement, I have learnt by some of my Hindu Vaishnav scholars that certain Bible terms are mis-translated: ...

<yawn> ignore-list </yawn>

 

[Harmonious]

namaskaram harmonious ji

Hey there! :waves:

if you are still arround , ...please can you tell me if Kosher just covers the method by which an animal is slaughtered , or dose it cover the way it is bread and kept throughout its life ?

could you please elaborate on the rules relating to Kosher in this respect , ...

many thanks , ...

Not a problem.

Kosher refers to many things, and it depends on when, during the animal's life, the Jew doing the slaughtering owned the animal in question.

Throughout the lifetime of a kosher animal, it is supposed to be raised, more or less "free range." My mother told me that when she was a kid, she and her grandmother would go shopping for chicken for Shabbat at the butchers. If my mom caught the chicken (after they ran around the pen in an effort to catch it), they had chicken. If her grandmother caught the chicken, they let it go, as it was thought to be sickly.

I would assume the same would be the way of it, with other animals, assuming we are starting with animals that CAN be kosher animals, to start with.

If a Jew bought an animal that was treated badly by non-Jewish owners, depending on how badly damaged the animal was would determine whether the animal was still kosher.

And all of this is before the animal is slaughtered, and that process has to be kosher, as well.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram ,

thank you for your reply , ....waving in return m ,,,,

Throughout the lifetime of a kosher animal, it is supposed to be raised, more or less "free range." My mother told me that when she was a kid, she and her grandmother would go shopping for chicken for Shabbat at the butchers. If my mom caught the chicken (after they ran around the pen in an effort to catch it), they had chicken. If her grandmother caught the chicken, they let it go, as it was thought to be sickly.

This I can understand , if an animal is reared for the table then at the least it should be kept well , ...ie , ..''free range''

If a Jew bought an animal that was treated badly by non-Jewish owners, depending on how badly damaged the animal was would determine whether the animal was still kosher.

what does the average Jew think of factory farming whereupon the animal isnt realy allowed a good and natural life before it meets with death ?

 

[Desert Snake]

In Eden, they were to be vegetarian -if not vegan. Even the animals did not eat flesh.

After the flood, God allowed all things -including animals flesh -to be eaten.

With the Mosaic laws, God allowed only some types of animal flesh to be eaten.

It is very clear that animal flesh was considered clean by those laws -which even make specific mention of the various animals.

However, in the kingdom of God on earth -yet future -even the nature of the animals will be changed so that they do not eat meat.
It it specifically stated that the lion will eat straw like the ox.
While it is not specifically stated, it is unlikely that the humans who repopulate the earth during the thousand years after Christ's return will kill and eat animals.

The food issue has generally followed man's spiritual state. No meat, all meat, some meat and then none again.

Gen 1: 29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so

Then.....

Gen 9: 3Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 4But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat

Then.....

Deut 14:4 These are the beasts which ye shall eat: the ox, the sheep, and the goat, 5The hart, and the roebuck, and the fallow deer, and the wild goat, and the pygarg, and the wild ox, and the chamois. 6And every beast that parteth the hoof, and cleaveth the cleft into two claws, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, that ye shall eat. 7Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you. 8And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

9These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat: 10And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.

11Of all clean birds ye shall eat. 12But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, 13And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind, 14And every raven after his kind, 15And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind, 16The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan, 17And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant, 18And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat. 19And every creeping thing that flieth is unclean unto you: they shall not be eaten. 20But of all clean fowls ye may eat.

21Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk


Lev 26:21 If then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. 22'I will let loose among you the beasts of the field, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted.

Then......

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," says the LORD.

Eating or not eating meat has nothing to do with a persons 'spiritual state'. So, you're wrong. You are talking about a hypothetical, and presenting it as a given, a fact.

 

[Tumah]

namaskaram ,

thank you for your reply , ....waving in return m ,,,,



This I can understand , if an animal is reared for the table then at the least it should be kept well , ...ie , ..''free range''

The free-range that Harmonius is speaking about is not a quality of life issue, so much as a convenient method to determine whether the sinews in the legs are damaged or not. If they are damaged, then the poultry is considered not kosher. So if the bird is running around, that's a clear sign that the sinews are fine. Alternatively, if the bird can't run around, then after it is slaughtered, the sinews are examined separately of other identifying signs of damage that would render the animal non-Kosher. For the most part, any time of damage whether genetic or incurred that would cause the animal to die within the year renders the animal non-Kosher.
Practices like fattening a goose with corn by putting a pipe down its throat renders it non-Kosher not because it is inhumane, but because in inserting the pipe, the throat is torn and this is considered a significant amount of damage.

what does the average Jew think of factory farming whereupon the animal isnt realy allowed a good and natural life before it meets with death ?

Causing undue suffering to animals go against the prohibition of paining living creatures. However, it causes no change in the kosher status of the animal.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Tumah ji

"Tirtzach" means "murder" in the second person imperfect. The Hebrew root "RTzḤ" means to murder. I'm not aware of any instances when it is used in conjunction with an animal. The roots used for animal slaughter are "ShḤT" and "ZVḤ".

in english the word murder has several conoteations , ...that in common usage refering to murder as the premeditated taking the life of another human being , ....and the deeper meaning of not violating , ...to kill brutaly or inhumanely .
the empasis being upon , ..''without justification''

please correct me If I am wrong but are there not arguments within the Jewish faith about that justification ? and arent there many vegetarian Jews ? who I assume are vegetarian on moral grounds ?

it would be interesting to hear this veiw point .

 

[Tumah]

namaskaram Tumah ji



in english the word murder has several conoteations , ...that in common usage refering to murder as the premeditated taking the life of another human being , ....and the deeper meaning of not violating , ...to kill brutaly or inhumanely .
the empasis being upon , ..''without justification''

That may be so. But in the Hebrew, I don't believe that the word "murder" is ever used in reference to animals. For animals, the two words mentioned above "ZVH" and "ShHT" - with the latter used in a more general way - is used.

please correct me If I am wrong but are there not arguments within the Jewish faith about that justification ?

About what justification?

and arent there many vegetarian Jews ? who I assume are vegetarian on moral grounds ?

it would be interesting to hear this veiw point .

I'm sure there are Jewish vegetarians. But I'm sure you are aware that there is a phenomenon called "Secular Judaism". It seems like it would be difficult to rationalize animal slaughter as being immoral in the face of Biblical requirements to do so, unless one didn't believe in the innerancy of the Bible to begin with.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

Causing undue suffering to animals go against the prohibition of paining living creatures. However, it causes no change in the kosher status of the animal.

could you please elaborate upon this prohibition , ...any reference to texts would be welcome

many thanks

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Tumah ji

About what justification?

murder ; ...to kill without justification , ....

I'm sure there are Jewish vegetarians. But I'm sure you are aware that there is a phenomenon called "Secular Judaism". It seems like it would be difficult to rationalize animal slaughter as being immoral in the face of Biblical requirements to do so, unless one didn't believe in the innerancy of the Bible to begin with.

although the Bible carefully lists the animals one way eat , ....a Jew may find the the method of rearing that animal to be imoral in that it may be inhumanely kept or subjected to unnecessary cruelty ?

 

[Tumah]

namaskaram



could you please elaborate upon this prohibition , ...any reference to texts would be welcome

many thanks

I'll just list you some Biblical sources rather than Talmudic/Rabbinical sources.

Gen. 9:4 prohibition against eating animals alive
Ex. 20:9 requirement to rest animals on the Sabbath
Ex. 23:5 requirement to help over-burdened animal
Deut. 11:15 requirement to feed one's animals before eating one's meal
Deut. 22:7 requirement to shoo the mother bird away before taking her eggs
DEut. 22:10 prohibition against placing two different species under one yolk
Deut. 25:4 prohibition against muzzling animals while they are working the field

The Talmudic/Rabbinic sources basically derive principles in how to deal with animals from these verses.

 

[Tumah]

namaskaram Tumah ji



murder ; ...to kill without justification , ....

I imagine that killing an animal without justification would fall under the categories of "wasting bounty" and "causing suffering to a living creature".

although the Bible carefully lists the animals one way eat , ....a Jew may find the the method of rearing that animal to be imoral in that it may be inhumanely kept or subjected to unnecessary cruelty ?

You could phrase it that way.
I would just say its a violation of the earlier mentioned prohibitions. But it amounts to the same thing at the end.

 

[rosends]

There is debate within Judaism about the propriety, permissibility or even preference of vegetarianism vs. meat eating. There are sources who cite commentary that meat eating is a concession, not a preference, and others which say meat eating isn't just permitted but often required. There is no connection to laws against murder, though.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

please correct me If I am wrong but are there not arguments within the Jewish faith about that justification ? and arent there many vegetarian Jews ? who I assume are vegetarian on moral grounds ?

it would be interesting to hear this veiw point .

Shalom, ... Yes i am one of those Vegetarians on moral grounds ...
or perhaps it's my parents fault for taking me to the country when i was 10,
where i saw baby lambs for the first time !!
so its the fear of guilt perhaps .....

 

[Etritonakin]

Eating or not eating meat has nothing to do with a persons 'spiritual state'. So, you're wrong. You are talking about a hypothetical, and presenting it as a given, a fact.

The food issue has generally followed man's spiritual state. No meat, all meat, some meat and then none again.

I didn't say it was the same thing, I said it generally followed -but one's spiritual state does have much to do with what they DO -like... SIN for example.......

The FACT is that anything not of faith is sin -transgression of the law is sin -so eating or not eating various things which were allowed or disallowed has much to do with one's spiritual state -as it has to do with a willingness to obey God.

I'm not wrong.

It is a fact that in Eden -when man's spiritual state was pure and innocent NO ANIMAL FLESH WAS EATEN -NOT EVEN BY ANIMALS.

Then, after expulsion and eventually the flood, when man was kept FROM Eden and because their general spiritual state became such that the imaginations of men were on evil continually, man was then allowed ALL ANIMAL FLESH.

Then, when God purposed to make Israel a peculiar nation and began to lead them on the path to righteousness and obedience, he allowed ONLY SOME ANIMAL FLESH and disallowed some animal flesh.

Having no other god before God -living by every word that proceeded from the mouth of God -had very much to do with eating and not eating -the act is representative of a spiritual attitude.

In the future -when Christ reigns and those made immortal then reign with him, animals will again not consume animal flesh, and none will hurt or destroy IN ALL HIS HOLY MOUNTAIN.
The whole earth will be as Eden as Christ enforces and teaches peace to all nations.

If you believe that the bible is inaccurate, that's your issue -otherwise, people choose to eat all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons -but what I said was correct and in response to the original subject -bible terms.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Eliab ben Benjamin ji

Shalom , ..

Shalom, ... Yes i am one of those Vegetarians on moral grounds ...
or perhaps it's my parents fault for taking me to the country when i was 10,
where i saw baby lambs for the first time !!
so its the fear of guilt perhaps .....

why does it have to be about Guilt ? may be you just have a compassionate streak

if you dont mind my asking , ...is your vegetarianism well received amongst your family and comunity or is there some cultural presure as a Jew to accept meat ?

 

[Harmonious]

Causing undue suffering to animals go against the prohibition of paining living creatures. However, it causes no change in the kosher status of the animal.

Not challenging, agreeing...

It may not change the kosher status, but the Jews who know of someone's immoral treatment of the animals may choose to NOT do business with those who sin by being cruel to the animals. And while the animals may technically be kosher, the people certifying the slaughter for Kashrut may choose not to certify a brand when the people are behaving improperly towards the animals.

 

[Desert Snake]

The food issue has generally followed man's spiritual state. No meat, all meat, some meat and then none again.

I didn't say it was the same thing, I said it generally followed -but one's spiritual state does have much to do with what they DO -like... SIN for example.......

The FACT is that anything not of faith is sin -transgression of the law is sin -so eating or not eating various things which were allowed or disallowed has much to do with one's spiritual state -as it has to do with a willingness to obey God.

I'm not wrong.

It is a fact that in Eden -when man's spiritual state was pure and innocent NO ANIMAL FLESH WAS EATEN -NOT EVEN BY ANIMALS.

Then, after expulsion and eventually the flood, when man was kept FROM Eden and because their general spiritual state became such that the imaginations of men were on evil continually, man was then allowed ALL ANIMAL FLESH.

Then, when God purposed to make Israel a peculiar nation and began to lead them on the path to righteousness and obedience, he allowed ONLY SOME ANIMAL FLESH and disallowed some animal flesh.

Having no other god before God -living by every word that proceeded from the mouth of God -had very much to do with eating and not eating -the act is representative of a spiritual attitude.

In the future -when Christ reigns and those made immortal then reign with him, animals will again not consume animal flesh, and none will hurt or destroy IN ALL HIS HOLY MOUNTAIN.
The whole earth will be as Eden as Christ enforces and teaches peace to all nations.

If you believe that the bible is inaccurate, that's your issue -otherwise, people choose to eat all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons -but what I said was correct and in response to the original subject -bible terms.

I don't have to think that the bible is wrong, in order to come to the conclusion that you are incorrect. Tell me this, since we're going by the Bible. Why did G-d dislike Cains offering, if He wanted us to be vegetarian, in any capacity? Is this deity deranged? Why would His own meat eating to spiritual purity ratio be off the table when it concerned sacrifice to Him?