I skimmed through a few pages of that and it's pretty awesome. 52 pages of hilarious drawings showing male superheroes in bad female superhero poses.
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Misogynistic Movies, TV Shows, and Video Games
- Thread starter Debater Slayer
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Drolefille
PolyPanGeekGirl
Oh yeah, apparently to be a female superhero you cannot have a spine.
Monk Of Reason
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They are making progress. X-23 for example is a new (if you want to call her superhero) that I can't find any major sexist flaws in. She has sexual freedom, general badassness and never the damsel in distress. Any major flaws she has actually is rooted in childhood abuse rather than just being a woman.
But then you've got wonder woman....who was so sexist and offensive I sincerely cannot understand why so many feminist facebook pages like to use her as a mascot.
Drolefille
PolyPanGeekGirl
Sad though that you can only find one.
Honestly, modern WW is much better, as is animated WW, IMO. Watching Justice League and reading the modern comics I'm reminded that WW is one of the few who can match Superman, and is far less stringent on her ethics - which I actually consider a good thing for character development reasons.
Monk Of Reason
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Is she still competently helpless if she gets her bracelets stuck together and have a lasso whose only ability is to make men tell the truth? And are the issues still soft core porn?
I think what we really need is a comic book heroin who is geared towards female readers. Most feminist characters in comics are still designed in a way to appeal to men. And I don't mean making a full on cover to cover pink and rainbow. But something similar to what witchblade tried to be. Though add that to the list. As a stand alone heroin the witchblade series was pretty good. Oversexized but Sara herself is fairly feminist forward (except for her wardrobe)
WW was pretty bad in the 1940's when she was made, but it was at least a start to have a powerful female superhero.
But in the past couple of decades, she's been so much better. Gail Simone took over as writer of WW and it was good, and the current guy Brian Azzarello is good too.
She was also good in the Justice League show and her animated movie.
No, for a very long time she has not had the weakness of the bracelets. Currently there's nothing that makes her powerless, unlike Superman. As of 2011, she went back to an earlier ability though, where if she takes her bracelets off, she basically goes into berserker mode and becomes far more powerful. Like when she takes those off, she takes down Olympian gods in fights. So she wears the bracelets to protect other people from herself and still has considerable power, and takes them off during extreme moments when she needs to bring down a god.
The lasso is unbreakable and makes people tell the truth. She also uses it in combat a lot to differentiate her fighting style from anyone else, so she'll often throw people around with it, or pull them towards her, while keeping the other hand free to hit with bare-fisted or strike with her sword.
And she's had pretty cool story arcs. A while back she had a big story arc where Superman was mindcontrolled, and she basically beat him after a lengthy fight by cutting his throat, and then broke the neck of the guy who was mindcontrolling him because it was the only way to stop the spell.
Since 2011 under Brian Azzarello, her story has basically been a game of thrones situation where Zeus is gone and the Olympian gods are positioning themselves for the throne. WW deals with that deity drama while protecting humans. She ended up killing Ares and becoming the new god of war.
She's one of the strongest heroes in DC's universe, about equal in a fight with Superman, and more powerful than Green Lantern, Supergirl, etc. She's nice but she's also pragmatic, so she's one of the superheroes that is willing to kill if the situation requires it.
No. Current issues have an odd and pretty cool stylized art form, actually.
I think WW, Supergirl, and Batgirl are all decent currently. Supergirl is good for teens, imo, and she's pretty cool right now.
I do think overall comics should give more focus towards female readers.
Monk Of Reason
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Good to hear.
I still feel like these comics are token comics to try and appease the female readers without really putting it out there. Though I will admit that DC isn't my territory aside from batman and Raven. But now that I think about it Raven is also a unique character design with a lot of depth.
What is this being based on, though?
Are you familiar with their current comics? I assume not because you were asking about WW's bracelet weakness that she hasn't had for many years, and based on what you said here about DC not being your territory. So I mean, are you basing that conclusion on reading current comics at all, or from 1970's material or other stuff from memory?
Supergirl and Batgirl were originally created as secondary versions of male superheroes, which is lame. (And X-23 that you mentioned is literally a genetic clone of Wolverine, so she's very similar except that her claws come out of her hands and her feet rather than just her hands like Wolverine). That's one reason why Wonder Woman was kind of special; she was created for own sake rather than as a version of an existing male superhero.
But since Supergirl and Batgirl have been created, they've turned into rich characters with their own comics and tend not to be too much affiliated with Superman and Batman. Currently, Batgirl is written by Gail Simone, who over a decade ago brought attention to how badly women are depicted in comics, and is probably the best-known female comic book writer, and so Batgirl is one of the better-selling comics out there (slightly higher than WW currently). Supergirl is cool too, and as a teen her comic is aimed at teen readers. Her plot is that she was sent to earth as one of the five "worldkillers", beings that are intended to conquer planets. She chooses good instead, but overall is a lot more aggressive than Superman. Whereas Superman grew up as an infant on earth, Supergirl grew up until a teenager on Krypton, then was put in stasis and sent to earth, so unlike Superman, everything she ever knew is gone and for her it felt like only months ago, so she's kind of angry about that, and that's what her plot revolves around (including trying to track down what happened, because unlike Superman she's not at peace with it). I'm not sure why you'd highlight X-23 as a good female character but consider WW, Batgirl, and Supergirl to be tokens.
Monk Of Reason
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Aside from Batman and a few Teen Titan comics I don't read a lot of DC. However from what I know from S-Girl and B-Girl they were originally created as a token female character in a predominatly male oriented story. The fact that they have come across their own stories is really good and I haven't actually read them. So I can't judge to much. My original reason is again based off of their origins.
Though its not quite fair to compare the x-23 origin to them as X-23 has always been more or less independent of the wolverine comics. She interacts a few times and is a genetic clone but isn't the token female character of the story. I would like to see more heroins like WW who isn't an understudy to a popular male character but one that stand on their own. That would be interesting. Though WW will have to stand lonesome in this regard for a while I guess.
edit> But if we are considering side-kick like characters She Hulk is pretty interesting as a character. They have flaws but overall not bad. And she had a huge following for a while but I'm not sure if it was of the feminist crowd...
Currently I feel like Supergirl has some of the least sexualized cover art work out there, and it generally stays that way throughout the panels. As an older teenager aimed at a teenage and twenty-something audience, I think they're deliberately making sure not to sexualize her too much in illustrations.
Example Covers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)
Usually she just looks ticked off, and a male superhero could be substituted in without changing the pose much. For a few she does have some stereotypical feminine poses, but some of the guy ones have exaggerated guy poses in their comics (and comic book covers are notoriously cheesy as a whole), so overall it looks fine to me and that she has a spine. I think her current (2011-) version drawn by Mahmud Asrar is basically the type of art other female superheros should have.
One awful exception was when Powergirl was on the cover, because Powergirl has that cleavage window on her outfit that she's always had and they both looked awful on that cover. Wonder Woman's pose on one of Supergirl's covers was also bad, although that fight was awesome in the comic.
I'm kind of mixed about her costume, because her legs are unnecessarily showing and Superman's are not. But her upper body is fully covered, and overall I think it's okay. There's a ripped kryptonian named H'el that walks around perpetually topless in her comic during a later arc, so if anything he's more sexualized than she is. Kryptonians don't have use for clothes other than for modesty anyway. Basically I think Supergirl as a comic is alright currently and isn't a highly gendered role.
Example Covers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)
Usually she just looks ticked off, and a male superhero could be substituted in without changing the pose much. For a few she does have some stereotypical feminine poses, but some of the guy ones have exaggerated guy poses in their comics (and comic book covers are notoriously cheesy as a whole), so overall it looks fine to me and that she has a spine. I think her current (2011-) version drawn by Mahmud Asrar is basically the type of art other female superheros should have.
One awful exception was when Powergirl was on the cover, because Powergirl has that cleavage window on her outfit that she's always had and they both looked awful on that cover. Wonder Woman's pose on one of Supergirl's covers was also bad, although that fight was awesome in the comic.
I'm kind of mixed about her costume, because her legs are unnecessarily showing and Superman's are not. But her upper body is fully covered, and overall I think it's okay. There's a ripped kryptonian named H'el that walks around perpetually topless in her comic during a later arc, so if anything he's more sexualized than she is. Kryptonians don't have use for clothes other than for modesty anyway. Basically I think Supergirl as a comic is alright currently and isn't a highly gendered role.
Then I'll just say current Batgirl and Supergirl are not how they were decades ago. Batgirl is nerdy and Supergirl is ragey. They have developed personalities and are as separate from Batman and Superman as you describe X-23 is from Wolverine. For example, Supergirl came to earth with her costume and everything already in place, ended up fighting the military because they were frightened and attacked her, Superman tried to chill things out but she basically just said "screw you" and left because she didn't trust him, and does her own thing mostly. Sometimes they interact.
So in current versions, Batgirl was an understudy of Batman (like several male characters were) but then went and did her own thing with only loose affiliation, while Supergirl is not really an understudy of Superman at all other than that she's physically younger (but oddly, chronologically older due to her time spent in stasis). They're just both from the same extended family on Krypton.
What I mean is though, she was created from the template of a male character. And if you say she's a good character, then her origin as basically a template isn't necessarily a dealbreaker as far as the character is concerned, which is also true for Batgirl and Supergirl.
I'm about as familiar with Marvel as you are with DC. Hulk and She-Hulk always just looked funny to me, though I never did read their comics.
I'd like to see more stand-alone comic book characters too. I don't read much comics other than a few DC ones but for the viewership as a whole I think it would be beneficial. It's a very, very male dominated industry, and often the excuse for that is that their readership is male, but they keep making that sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Monk Of Reason
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I might look them up then.
The main difference I was getting at is in the dynamic of the stories the B-girl and S-girl were created as token female characters to try and appeal to the female audience. This in and of itself was a good first step. Personally I find the addition of Stephanie Brown (female cannon robin) to be a better idea. It fills the exact same role as Robin which was traditionally a male lead and didn't have any major sexist overtones that I could find. But this is another story.
The difference with X-23 is that she was an introduced character in the Cartoon Series "X-Men Evolution" as a side story shortly before it was canceled and ended prematurely. The character gained rapid popularity from the fans and later adapted into the comics with her own series as well as being incorporated in X-force which was a stand alone series. She was never a "token female character" as other female characters already existed and she never fulfilled the stereotypical role of appealing to female fans because there was a sausage fest. Not specifically that her origin and powers were derived from a male source.
What I was hinting at is that she was drawn to look like a supermodel body builder and its kind of a fetish that some guys have to see masculine and muscular women.
I'd like to see more stand alone comics period. Not just more feminist ones. I'm tired of seeing nothing but X-men, Spiderman, Hulk, Batman, Superman, ect ect. Its the same characters and rarely any new characters. I've recently been switching around to other comics like Darkhorse comics, Top Cow, Watchmen and league of extraordinary gentlemen (which despite the title is one of the least sexist comic book series I've ever read)
But to conclude I feel like there is a terrible problem in the Nerd community in general with rabid sexism that isn't getting better in many ways. I think I'll make a thread dedicated to that.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
The only Supergirl that I thought was good was Peter David's Supergirl/Linda Danvers...she was like a half Kryptonian Buffy.
As a note, she had a major controversy regarding sexism. Comics have a bad history of killing off and maiming female characters (like Batgirl being shot and paralzed from the waist down, Supergirl being killed off at one point, Black Canary being brutally tortured and losing her canary cry, etc) at a high rate compared to male characters. When male characters are maimed, it's often for their own development (like Batman and his infamously broken back from Bane), whereas female characters have often been killed off or permanently power-stripped for decades for the development of a male character (Batman, Superman, and Green Arrow respectively for those three).
Stephanie Brown ran into the same problem at some point. After being robin for a while, fans liked her, but she ended up being tortured to death. And, her torture had some fairly sexualized imagery to it, which was pretty screwed up. And then unlike previous dead robin Jason Todd, she never got a robin memorial in the Batcave. Fans got pretty angry at that whole series of events.
Years later, Stephanie Brown was brought back, and she became... Batgirl.
There was another awesome Batgirl named Cassandra Cain, who was basically the best martial artist in the DC universe. Historically Shiva has been the best martial artist, with others like Richard Dragon (he's probably tied with her), Bruce Wayne, Black Canary and others all being roughly top tier too. But Cassandra Cain kind of took that mantle when she beat Shiva in a fight.
Cassandra's character was neat because she was basically an odd prodigy. She was a Tibetan raised by the League of Assassins to be the perfect killer, and instead of being taught how to talk as a kid, she was taught martial arts. Like, she literally never learned how to speak, and was mute and antisocial. Instead, she learned from infancy to read people's movements, and had a prodigy ability to read people's movements literally as easy as a normal person can listen to speech, because that's the first thing she ever learned. She was also abused to be highly resistant to pain, and as Batgirl could take a bullet without showing much pain. She had her first assassination as a kid, but was so horrified by the ethics of it that she ran away, wandered the world for a decade or so, and then joined Batman as the next Batgirl. So basically in a fight, she was ridiculous, and not second to Batman in that regard (he still had his genius and tech and money, but he wouldn't do well to, say, fight her in a fair martial arts match, because she'd be one of the few normal humans to be able to beat him, even as a teenager).
Another female robin in one arc was Carrie Kelley, who had a very androgynous appearance which was neat.
That's mostly what I know her from.
My experience is of that as well.
Monk Of Reason
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I knew about her becomming bat girl but I didn't know about the lack of a memorial. Net info though. thanks.As a note, she had a major controversy regarding sexism. Comics have a bad history of killing off and maiming female characters (like Batgirl being shot and paralzed from the waist down, Supergirl being killed off at one point, Black Canary being brutally tortured and losing her canary cry, etc) at a high rate compared to male characters. When male characters are maimed, it's often for their own development (like Batman and his infamously broken back from Bane), whereas female characters have often been killed off or permanently power-stripped for decades for the development of a male character (Batman, Superman, and Green Arrow respectively for those three).
Stephanie Brown ran into the same problem at some point. After being robin for a while, fans liked her, but she ended up being tortured to death. And, her torture had some fairly sexualized imagery to it, which was pretty screwed up. And then unlike previous dead robin Jason Todd, she never got a robin memorial in the Batcave. Fans got pretty angry at that whole series of events.
Years later, Stephanie Brown was brought back, and she became... Batgirl.
There was another awesome Batgirl named Cassandra Cain, who was basically the best martial artist in the DC universe. Historically Shiva has been the best martial artist, with others like Richard Dragon (he's probably tied with her), Bruce Wayne, Black Canary and others all being roughly top tier too. But Cassandra Cain kind of took that mantle when she beat Shiva in a fight.
Cassandra's character was neat because she was basically an odd prodigy. She was a Tibetan raised by the League of Assassins to be the perfect killer, and instead of being taught how to talk as a kid, she was taught martial arts. Like, she literally never learned how to speak, and was mute and antisocial. Instead, she learned from infancy to read people's movements, and had a prodigy ability to read people's movements literally as easy as a normal person can listen to speech, because that's the first thing she ever learned. She was also abused to be highly resistant to pain, and as Batgirl could take a bullet without showing much pain. She had her first assassination as a kid, but was so horrified by the ethics of it that she ran away, wandered the world for a decade or so, and then joined Batman as the next Batgirl. So basically in a fight, she was ridiculous, and not second to Batman in that regard (he still had his genius and tech and money, but he wouldn't do well to, say, fight her in a fair martial arts match, because she'd be one of the few normal humans to be able to beat him, even as a teenager).
Another female robin in one arc was Carrie Kelley, who had a very androgynous appearance which was neat.
my condolences.