Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that serves well as a fictional story. However it does make sense that Jesus would not wish to be crucified again. Once was enough.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Mistaken Identity and Jesus - doesn't require a look-a-like
- Thread starter excreationist
- Start date
excreationist
Married mouth-breather
I think that is only mentioned once in the gospels - in John, which was written last. That passage seems to be aware of its readers:
John 20:29
The resurrection of Jesus was in an invisible form of life, i.e. in spirit, like the angels who in ancient times became visible to give messages from God to some people. Jesus, after his resurrection, materialized bodies to make himself visible, but then he dematerialized them and they no longer saw him, because his new life was the same as his previous nature: a spirit being who lived next to God and was then born as a human being.
This biblical story known to Bible students demonstrates how an invisible being can appear in a human body and shape, and later dematerialize that body and remain invisible as is its own proper nature:
Acts 10:40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead.
Evidently, after his resurrection Jesus was not visible to anyone but his own followers and most of the time was invisible to their eyes.
This biblical story known to Bible students demonstrates how an invisible being can appear in a human body and shape, and later dematerialize that body and remain invisible as is its own proper nature:
This words are very interesting:
Acts 10:40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead.
Evidently, after his resurrection Jesus was not visible to anyone but his own followers and most of the time was invisible to their eyes.
excreationist
Married mouth-breather
Only visible to certain people for a short amount of time seems compatible with it being a hallucination.... or group "visions" (also hallucinations)
excreationist
Married mouth-breather
Only visible to certain people for a short amount of time seems compatible with it being a hallucination.... or group "visions" (also hallucinations?)
What Really Happens With Group Visions | The Bart Ehrman Blog
Several people on the blog have pushed back on my claim that group hallucinations (what I’ve called non-veridical visions) can occur. Psychologically, is that really possible? How is it actually possible that a group of, say, twelve people could have the same mental breakdown leading them to...
ehrmanblog.org
Pure speculation based on your own disbelief.
excreationist
Married mouth-breather
I prefer the mistaken identity theory though Bart Ehrman and Richard Carrier believe it could be hallucinations. So you think it is more likely that angels, etc, exist? In the gospels angels appeared to quite a lot of people including some shepherds. These days I don't hear many stories of angels.....
Last edited:
excreationist
Married mouth-breather
The ages in the Genesis genealogies have over a dozen contradictions.... are they all being "honest"?
Genealogies of Genesis - Wikipedia
I thought you were talking about Jesus ... now I see that you digress on different topics because your real issue is that you don't want to reason about any of them.
Anyways, tell me: who can tell me better about the things that happened in the first century or older times: people who lived in those times or atheists who live in these years?
Just think rationally about it ... and have a good night.
Anyways, tell me: who can tell me better about the things that happened in the first century or older times: people who lived in those times or atheists who live in these years?
Just think rationally about it ... and have a good night.
excreationist
Married mouth-breather
You just ignored the argument - maybe it was too difficult for you. It is hard to argue against a person who thinks the Bible is 100% true.... so I had to mention an example that seems to involve many contradictions.... even though it isn't about Jesus. I mean a single contradiction can be easy to explain away....
Why did you ignore the genealogy example? It not being about Jesus seems like an excuse to ignore it..... also there are genealogies in the gospels.... which also seem to have contradictions
Note that Bishop Shelby Spong and Martin Luther King Jr don't believe in things like the virgin birth or the resurrection....Anyways, tell me: who can tell me better about the things that happened in the first century or older times: who lived in those times or atheists who live in these years?
9 Things You Should Know About Martin Luther King, Jr.
Martin Luther King Jr. Day is observed on the third Monday of January each year. Here are 9 things you should know about MLK.
Last edited:
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Sorry, that was not the case, the spirits don't have:
- marks of the injuries
- and or eat fish, please
Regards
Spirits do not have flesh, obviously... That's precisely why Jesus had to materialize bodies of flesh to make himself visible to his disciples and show them that it was he himself who had come back to life.
The simple fact that he sometimes appeared physically different, unrecognizable, shows that he did not always use a body similar to his before he died... if that had been the case he would have always been recognizable, and would not have even needed to show marks on his hands and side, if his face and physical bearing had already been enough. In fact, the marks on his old body of flesh were not limited to his hands, side and feet, as he had been mistreated long before he died, on his back from whipping, on his forehead the marks from thorns, etc.
Furthermore, the fact that he disappeared in front of them showed them that he was no longer a man with a fleshly body, but a spirit, like the angels of ancient times who appeared materialized and then disappeared. The Jews know these stories well. Angels do not have flesh because they are spirits, and thus his disciples would understand that the new resurrected Jesus was no longer a human of flesh, but a spirit that appeared and disappeared.
excreationist
Married mouth-breather
What happened to the body that was in the tomb? I thought in the story the body from the tomb and the body the disciples saw were the same bodies.
The body that Jesus had as a human was part (together with his blood) of what he sacrificed for the human race:
Luke 22:19 Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body, which is to be given in your behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.”
John 6:48 “I am the bread of life. (...) 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
1 Cor. 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord.
In a physical sense his body and blood were offered on earth at the time he died and was buried, but we cannot say how the body ended up being ceremonially offered in front of Jehovah to validate the ransom in Christ's sacrifice, BUT we do know with certainty that it was completely offered to God, to the point that in the Bible the benefit of that ransom is compared to "eating of that bread" or "eating of that offered body" in the same way that an Israelite or Levite ate of the sacrifices offered in the temple ... and Jesus is called in the Bible "the Lamb of God".
... although Scripture does say that the value of his blood was presented before the throne of God sometime after his resurrection.
Heb. 10:5 So when he comes into the world, he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. 6 You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.’ 7 Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’” 8 After first saying: “You did not want nor did you approve of sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin offerings”—sacrifices that are offered according to the Law— 9 then he says: “Look! I have come to do your will.” He does away with what is first in order to establish what is second. 10 By this “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.
Heb. 9:11 However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have already taken place, he passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 He entered into the holy place, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time, and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us. 13 For if the blood of goats and of bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who have been defiled sanctifies for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God? (...) 23 Therefore, it was necessary for the typical representations of the things in the heavens to be cleansed by these means, but the heavenly things require far better sacrifices. 24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf. 25 This was not done to offer himself often, as when the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this to receive a judgment, 28 so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin, and he will be seen by those earnestly looking for him for their salvation.
If Jesus had taken back his offered body, it would have been like asking for the price he had paid for the human race, nullifying the transaction made with his sacrifice.
Luke 22:19 Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body, which is to be given in your behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.”
John 6:48 “I am the bread of life. (...) 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
1 Cor. 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord.
In a physical sense his body and blood were offered on earth at the time he died and was buried, but we cannot say how the body ended up being ceremonially offered in front of Jehovah to validate the ransom in Christ's sacrifice, BUT we do know with certainty that it was completely offered to God, to the point that in the Bible the benefit of that ransom is compared to "eating of that bread" or "eating of that offered body" in the same way that an Israelite or Levite ate of the sacrifices offered in the temple ... and Jesus is called in the Bible "the Lamb of God".
... although Scripture does say that the value of his blood was presented before the throne of God sometime after his resurrection.
Heb. 10:5 So when he comes into the world, he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. 6 You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.’ 7 Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’” 8 After first saying: “You did not want nor did you approve of sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin offerings”—sacrifices that are offered according to the Law— 9 then he says: “Look! I have come to do your will.” He does away with what is first in order to establish what is second. 10 By this “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.
Heb. 9:11 However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have already taken place, he passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 He entered into the holy place, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time, and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us. 13 For if the blood of goats and of bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who have been defiled sanctifies for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God? (...) 23 Therefore, it was necessary for the typical representations of the things in the heavens to be cleansed by these means, but the heavenly things require far better sacrifices. 24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf. 25 This was not done to offer himself often, as when the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this to receive a judgment, 28 so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin, and he will be seen by those earnestly looking for him for their salvation.
If Jesus had taken back his offered body, it would have been like asking for the price he had paid for the human race, nullifying the transaction made with his sacrifice.
Last edited:
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
It goes back to the origin of the doctrine of the resurrection and to the lack of prophetic support for it.
And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luke 24:44-46
Last edited:
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
There was understandably some confusion between Jesus and his twin (fellow from Zechariah 13:7).
| 31 | Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. |
| 7 | Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith YHWH of armies: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. |
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
| 23 | He that hateth me hateth my Father also. |
| 24 | If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. |
| 25 | But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. |
| 26 | But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: |
| 19 | Let not them that are mine enemies wrongfully rejoice over me: [neither] let them wink with the eye that hate me without a cause. |
| 4 | They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, [being] mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored [that] which I took not away. |
| 3 | They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause. |
| 27 | Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let YHWH be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant. |
| 11 | He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. |
| 12 | Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. |
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
These two are enough of proof that Jesus did not die a cursed death on the Cross and G-d saved his life, right?
Regards
Colt
Well-Known Member
The Urantia Book revelation of 1955 says this about the body of Jesus:
THE MATERIAL BODY OF JESUS
189:2.1 At ten minutes past three o’clock, as the resurrected Jesus fraternized with the assembled morontia personalities from the seven mansion worlds of Satania, the chief of archangels—the angels of the resurrection—approached Gabriel and asked for the mortal body of Jesus. Said the chief of the archangels: “We may not participate in the morontia resurrection of the bestowal experience of Michael our sovereign, but we would have his mortal remains put in our custody for immediate dissolution. We do not propose to employ our technique of dematerialization; we merely wish to invoke the process of accelerated time. It is enough that we have seen the Sovereign live and die on Urantia; the hosts of heaven would be spared the memory of enduring the sight of the slow decay of the human form of the Creator and Upholder of a universe. In the name of the celestial intelligences of all Nebadon, I ask for a mandate giving me the custody of the mortal body of Jesus of Nazareth and empowering us to proceed with its immediate dissolution.”189:2.2 And when Gabriel had conferred with the senior Most High of Edentia, the archangel spokesman for the celestial hosts was given permission to make such disposition of the physical remains of Jesus as he might determine.
189:2.3 After the chief of archangels had been granted this request, he summoned to his assistance many of his fellows, together with a numerous host of the representatives of all orders of celestial personalities, and then, with the aid of the Urantia midwayers, proceeded to take possession of Jesus’ physical body. This body of death was a purely material creation; it was physical and literal; it could not be removed from the tomb as the morontia form of the resurrection had been able to escape the sealed sepulchre. By the aid of certain morontia auxiliary personalities, the morontia form can be made at one time as of the spirit so that it can become indifferent to ordinary matter, while at another time it can become discernible and contactable to material beings, such as the mortals of the realm.
189:2.4 As they made ready to remove the body of Jesus from the tomb preparatory to according it the dignified and reverent disposal of near-instantaneous dissolution, it was assigned the secondary Urantia midwayers to roll away the stones from the entrance of the tomb. The larger of these two stones was a huge circular affair, much like a millstone, and it moved in a groove chiseled out of the rock, so that it could be rolled back and forth to open or close the tomb. When the watching Jewish guards and the Roman soldiers, in the dim light of the morning, saw this huge stone begin to roll away from the entrance of the tomb, apparently of its own accord—without any visible means to account for such motion—they were seized with fear and panic, and they fled in haste from the scene. The Jews fled to their homes, afterward going back to report these doings to their captain at the temple. The Romans fled to the fortress of Antonia and reported what they had seen to the centurion as soon as he arrived on duty.
189:2.5 The Jewish leaders began the sordid business of supposedly getting rid of Jesus by offering bribes to the traitorous Judas, and now, when confronted with this embarrassing situation, instead of thinking of punishing the guards who deserted their post, they resorted to bribing these guards and the Roman soldiers. They paid each of these twenty men a sum of money and instructed them to say to all: “While we slept during the nighttime, his disciples came upon us and took away the body.” And the Jewish leaders made solemn promises to the soldiers to defend them before Pilate in case it should ever come to the governor’s knowledge that they had accepted a bribe.
189:2.6 The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus has been based on the fact of the “empty tomb.” It was indeed a fact that the tomb was empty, but this is not the truth of the resurrection. The tomb was truly empty when the first believers arrived, and this fact, associated with that of the undoubted resurrection of the Master, led to the formulation of a belief which was not true: the teaching that the material and mortal body of Jesus was raised from the grave. Truth having to do with spiritual realities and eternal values cannot always be built up by a combination of apparent facts. Although individual facts may be materially true, it does not follow that the association of a group of facts must necessarily lead to truthful spiritual conclusions.
189:2.7 The tomb of Joseph was empty, not because the body of Jesus had been rehabilitated or resurrected, but because the celestial hosts had been granted their request to afford it a special and unique dissolution, a return of the “dust to dust,” without the intervention of the delays of time and without the operation of the ordinary and visible processes of mortal decay and material corruption.
189:2.8 The mortal remains of Jesus underwent the same natural process of elemental disintegration as characterizes all human bodies on earth except that, in point of time, this natural mode of dissolution was greatly accelerated, hastened to that point where it became well-nigh instantaneous.
189:2.9 The true evidences of the resurrection of Michael are spiritual in nature, albeit this teaching is corroborated by the testimony of many mortals of the realm who met, recognized, and communed with the resurrected morontia Master. He became a part of the personal experience of almost one thousand human beings before he finally took leave of Urantia." UB 1955. IMOP